These guys are Anti-IDpol Leninists and Trots

Aka the SEP, they have criticisms in speeches and writings on their websites already against postmodernism, IDpol or SJWism (Plus details on how those go completely against dialectical materialism) and refer to them as the 'Pseudo-Left' and 'Pseudo-Marxists'. Been attacked for opposing it too by IDpol leftists.

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Their supporters are also heavily autistic

When you spend so much time and effort giving a shit about such an extremely online phenomenon, that's a given

In what way? Literally or etc?

Trot micro sect.

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The WSWS columns are based except for the autistic need to shoehorn the words Stalinist and bureaucracy into every article. No, Stalin did not cause all the evils of the world, my dear trots

They've got good articles, but they autistically screech about a particular brand of Trotskyism and sprawl it all over their website, they're very anti-Union.

Bloody hell, is the WSWS shilling like coordinated or what?


I guarantee it.

Anyway, for those who aren't familiar with them, here's a quick rundown:

* Publishes the WSWS daily online newspaper, the only daily out there from an explicitly revleft perspective. At first it's nice to have a daily to read, but you quickly realize that quality was sacrificed for quantity - all the articles start to look the same after a couple weeks or so.
* Tiny sect that believes that only they hold they key to true Marxist theory - hence why they denounce literally ever other leftist grouping as petty bourgeois "pseudo-left".
* Party's leader is David North, former sole-proprietor of a $25 million dollar company. North has had uncontested control of the SEP's political line for 30+ years, all resolutions are adopted "unanimously". It's not a stretch to deduce that he is the one signing the paychecks of the WSWS journalists and uses his capitalist wealth to surround himself with yes-men.

Some of their questionable political lines:
*Vehemently defending any multimillionaire actor / producer accused by #MeToo. They claim to be defending due process but at the same time slander the accusers as "petty bourgeois careerists" clearly fabricating assaults for their own gain. Sometimes the defense continues even after they're convicted (Roman Polanski).
*Vehemently anti-union, any union not controlled by the SEP must be destroyed. Supported the Janus supreme court ruling and literally urge workers to vote "no" in NLRB elections, IE no union is better than a non-socialist (or "pseudo-left") union.

The function of the unions is to protect the workers, if they aren't doing that, they are useless.

The WSWS is opposed to organised labour as a construct though, they just autistically screech about "rank and file organisations" like someone who has never done labour organising.

Post source, all I have ever seen was complaints about union leadership that cucks out to the capitalists and screws over its workers.

Thousands of autistic SEP-shill posts here, lost to time.

Raping people is one of the worst forms of idpol, so Trotskyism is inherently idpol.

Because the Unions are very clear part of management now. They are against modern unions because they don't represent worker interest and support nationalism which the SEP strictly opposes. The SEP supports rank and file organisations made up of actual workers. Which they cover on the site.


Proving this would mean going to their website however

I don't even like WSWS and I think they're right to agitate against corrupt Democrat-controlled union leadership.

You don't even have to read an article. They literally have a section called 'Workers struggles" strictly about organized labors. Where did all these anti-SEP shills come from?

A source sent me this image of a WSWS editorial meeting. Guys… it's really disturbing

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good thing the SEP advocates against corrupt Union activity in all the countries they are active in.


That being said, there is a WSWS/SEP poster whose frustration with this board oozes into their replies; every-time a slap-fight occurs they can't deal with the fact that their belief system is being challenged by some undersocialized meme-sprouting teen.
Doesn't do justice for what they actually put out.

Shut up you dumb burger.

Lamo have you been on leftypol for more than like a month?

Shoo Shoo


If you say so love.

Well done champ, you got him.

Stay mad perv.

WSWS posters

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Classic Rad Lib. You guys are always fascists in the end. Its funny to think you'd probably be hanging black guys from trees if you were born in the jim crow south.

Why are you so triggered by genuine socialists?

I support fighting against sellout Democrat union leadership too. The difference with the SEP is that they think this means existing unions have to be broken up to make room for the new SEP controlled unions. They seem to genuinely believe that having no union is better for workers than an AFL-CIO union, which if you've worked a day in your life at a union and a non-union job you'd know is bullshit. They claim that the unions' only function is to stop strikes on behalf of management, but you don't see many strikes coming from completely unorganized workers do you.

Again, they literally urge workers to vote "no" in NLRB elections. Whatever influence their paper has comes in on the side of the worst classcucks and may have swung the election toward lower wages.–2014_over_allegations_of_rape
Keep crying, groper.

Why are you intent on shitting up this board?

Organized labour movement was stronger when it was literally illegal to unionize and leadership was lynched.

Could ask you the same question libtard?
Just pathetic. Just go to Zig Forums and rant about "rapeuges" or whatever. You right wing nut job.

Please see

Dual cardism is also good, ok though retard.

Just go be with your fellow fascists and stopping shitting up this leftists board.

Please see


If they supported dual cardism with their "rank and file committee" meme I wouldn't have a problem with them. Instead they choose to actively sabotage existing organization campaigns to "make room" for them and objectively harm the cause of the working class.

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It's not even that, they are against militant pro-worker unions because they are not theirs, I remember a SEP-burger trying to shit on the IWGB despite them being perhaps the best element of organised labour in Britain.

Throw the ball bud

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Just bring them under central control like the IWW does, then proceed to purge like they did to the petite bourg yellow union members in the Socialist Party

Is the IWGB taking a coherent stance on Brexit now?

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I don't know what the means Zig Forumstard

Lamo have you never watched world peace?

Why are Trotskyists actively destructive like this? It's pathological.

We don't watch your fascist cartoons. Go away.


It seems like this fellow is deliberately misrepresenting the views of the ICFI(international committee of the fourth international), which controls the SEP. The WSWS supports all strikes but advocates for the formation of independent rank and file committees because they believe that unions no longer play a progressive role but instead actively work to hold back class struggle. The unions now work in tandem with the capitalists to demoralize workers with strikes that are contained and get workers no gains. The unions oppose unity with other sections of workers and are a hurdle to the international unity of the working class. It’s no coincidence that after the internalization of productive capital(factories, machinery, internet services, etc) unions have led sell out after sellout for the past 40 years since the transnational corporation came to dominate the capitalism of the late 20th and early 21st century. Anyone genuinely interested in this topic should ignore all attempts at slander and read the take of the wsws straight from the horses mouth, so to speak.

Best party in the USA tbh.

Do these guys have a FBI server they organize shilling on?

Do people not read whole threads anymore?

How's the #MeToo defense force coming pal?

The IWW has no materialist critique of the union form of organizing and their role is to simply "support" the workers without offering them any sort of perspective on how to carry their struggle forward. Simply look through their statement on the striking workers of Matamoros, Mexico, where they offer solidarity with the union despite the fact that the strikes were started in defiance of the unions as workers launched the largest strike of North America in 35 years through independent rank and file committees.

The WSWS was the only internationalist group actively reporting on these strikes, thereby providing this valuable news to workers throughout the world. Read through their reporting on the strikes and you can see for yourself the stark difference in the perspectives of the WSWS with the IWW.

The IWW itself is a very amorphous organization with no real political activity and perspective. I was looking through their about us page and its striking how they refuse to hold on to any sort of position. Their "official literature" promotes a vague idea of "industrial democracy" and getting all workers into "one big union". But the question of how is never answered, and this is because the organization has no theoretical perspective. It's not a Marxist organization and doesn't abide by democratic centralism so the organization has no way of analyzing capitalism through historical materialism and therefore has no foresight. It cannot connect workers to the broader political issues which is why the IWW has no articles on US's war drive with China and the jailing of Assange. Even the articles they promote are backed with the disclaimer that the IWW doesn't back the views expressed. For example, in their section "The IWW stance on political parties and trade unions", They write:
"Beyond the IWW's official literature, the following opinions which are not official and should not be regarded as the official position of the IWW, but have been written by IWW members, are offered for informational purposes (in chronological order)"

I became curious into their actual stance. They said in that section that they oppose electoralism but on another article in their site they write:
"So what do we do then? Do we vote as a practical measure to prevent things from getting worse, or do we refuse to vote because it ultimately represents capitulation to the status quo? I sent this prompt out to a number of Wobblies- Is participation in elections (national, state, and local) ultimately a capitulation to a system that actively works against working people? Or is it a pragmatic tactic to ensure that those in power are as minimally objectionable as possible? What bearing does this have on the IWW? How should we talk to people we are organizing about voting? A few notes:

I have changed the names of the FWs for the sake of anonymity.
I have edited the responses for style and grammar, but have not changed any of content.
This article is not intended to portray any official IWW stance on voting, nor is it intended to encourage the establishment of such a stance. Rather, it is meant to begin conversation on an important subject that will only become more relevant in the coming months.
The opinions and political stances of the FWs below are theirs alone."

The responses ranged from support for electoralism, to support for school board elections, to opposition. The author ended his article with a pathetic "There is not a clear answer to the dilemma of voting".

This sort of political agnosticism essentially means capitulation to capitalism. If they can't even back the opinions written on their site, how on earth will they be able to guide workers to socialist revolution, which is the only revolution that needs to be consciously guided? Lenin had always held on to the firm belief that workers need to be told the truth, and the Bolsheviks armed with the ideological clarity given by Marxism were able to do so. This is what led to the greatest revolution of all time. The IWW was once a great organization which led immense struggles but the Russian Revolution proved that a workers revolution can only be successful through the conscious guidance of the workers by a disciplined Marxist vanguard party.

The function of the IWW is to act as sheepdogs for the petty bourgeois with socialist consciousness, and deprive them of any revolutionary potential by smothering them with political amorphism. Not only are they not socialist but they are infact reactionary because they refuse to learn from the lessons of the Russian Revolution and instead make their members focus on cheerleading the workers rather than leading them by providing them with the truth.

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Howdy y'all
They come off as a little hyperbolic and at times their call to action or for the organization of the working class comes off as more an empty slogan than a genuine call to action, but

They link, talk about, and discuss theory. I see them try to justify their position based on relevant textual support.
They unequivocally call for class warfare by a united, international working class against global capital. They're severely critical of reforms and reformist parties, and even more belligerent when it comes to yellow unions.
They cover stories from everywhere on the planet. They've been covering the struggle of Indian workers in a Suzuki plant for years now.

I don't know, I read them but I still take anything I read on WSWS with a large grain of salt.

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Yeah, I thought it was really funny how they wrote an article defending Kevin Spacey of all fucking people. If I recall it practically called him 'heroic' for 'standing up' to the SJWs or whatever. Laughable nonsense. They tried to recruit me this past winter and I entertained it for a minute, before realizing that they are extremely sectarian trots who think they are the sole heroes of the left. Personally I find their brand of anti-IDpol to be more appealing to reactionaries than to a real leftist. Also the dude had this to say about Debord, because I told him I just picked up SotS:

"P.S. Debord was one of the intellectual grandfathers of postmodernism. His “situationist” movement basically asserted that the working class was not revolutionary because capitalism had found ways to lull workers to sleep through “spectacle.” This was a critical step in the development of what has become the modern pseudo-left (e.g. the DSA, the InterNational Soycialist Organization, etc.), laying the basis for a so-called “left” theory based entirely on personal identity. The result has been the politics of race, gender, sexual identity, etc. Thanks to thinkers like Debora, it is now possible to for so-called radical feminists to browbeat workers into voting for war criminals like Hillary Clinton because they supposedly won’t oppress women and people of color as much."

I dunno if that's accurate cuz I didn't end up reading past the first part of the book, but I don't see a lot of people badmouthing Debord so I thought I'd get your thoughts, Zig Forums.

Debord didn't claim that the proletariat wasn't the revolutionary subject anymore. Instead I see a pretty sharp analysis of how the proletariat (as in, the class without property) is MORE than a worker. That is not to say we must take on some post-structural perspective that rejects workerism but advances it. When capitalism was still developing, the free time of the industrial proletariat was spent largely outside of capitalist circulation. Entertainment was mostly non-commodified and in circles of family, friends or political groups. Think of families playing music together with each learning a different instrument (there's a screencap mentioning this which circulates frequently) or sports clubs and scout groups affiliated with unions and socialist parties which were common in the first half of the 20th century. Mass media has now reached a feverish level but the first critiques of culture industry are pretty old (see the Frankfurt School) so it was not new to Debord.
In the Society of the Spectacle he claims that the proletariat is steered into reproducing capitalism even after work. The proletariat evolves from a worker into a worker-consumer. I would now advance this to worker-tenant-consumer as capitalism has reached a certain saturation that one can simply think of in physical space. Each square foot becomes more and more valuable. Capitalism in the imperialist-capitalist core is mostly economic rent (not just literal rent) so we have to think of the proletariat as a tenant too. One could even add more layers to this: consider the obligations to civil society, law and the state that turns us into a worker-tenant-consumer-citizen. Think of it like intersectionality but explictly materialist and socialist.
Without exception, the worker takes priority.

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Debord kinda sucks a lot of the time, funny that Trots would dislike him though. He shat on the USSR constantly so he'd fit right in with them.

Regardless if it's right, they sound suspiciously institutional' top heavy judging from some comments and into faggotry.

Proofs? The U.S is a shifting odd thing when it comes to being able to seize power through the ballot, so I'd enjoy your take on why the IWW being able to change the electoral course easily is bad.
The Wobblies have had a historical vanguard of that was composed of Gurley Flynn, Haywood. Hell, they even had a basketball team.
The only reason these figured got wiped out is that the U.S straight up declared open war on the IWW.

Yes, "consumer goods" are also consumed by the proletariat. But the proletariat have been consumers for as long as capitalism has existed, and they consume for the main purpose of survival. This statement is somewhat inaccurate also because the bourgeoisie and petty bourgeois consumer far more resources than the proletariat.

The proletariat has always been a tenant as well because by definition they are landless. What do you think, they didn't pay rent in the 1850's? This is a psuedo-intellectual claim and infact is idiotic.

Intersectional implies that these categories are all on the same level field, however a worker is not the only tenant, not the only consumer, and not the only citizen. These are categories that include members of all classes and therefore are not relevant to the cause of socialist revolution.

Seems like it doesn't at all. Because secondary characteristics like consumer, tenant, citizen are being elevated into being main characteristics that goes alongside class. The reason class is primary is because "consumer", "citizen", "tenant", are amorphous terms in terms of looking at history scientifically is because it doesn't explain the fundamental struggle between the oppressor and oppressed that has driven history. Only class can do that and elevating these other identities as being something unique or a new observation only obfuscates the issue.

If by defending kevin spacey you mean they called out #metoo as the bourgeois witchhunt that it was and said that people shouldn't have their lives ruined on account of hearsay alone, yeah, they did that.

Kevin Spacey is a piece of bourgeois shit and most likely a rapist too so why defend him?

I'm sure it all makes sense to the SEP's diehards.

Because we can have a culture where innocence is presumed until proven guilty or we can have a culture where personal or political enemies can be rounded up and summarily eliminated with no pretense of facts or justice.

"innocence" and "guilt" as well as the presumption of the former or the latter are matters of the bourgeois juridical apparatus, nothing else. There are no innocent subjects.

Yeah, but that's not what's happening. Very rich and powerful people being held accountable for their actions, which would otherwise be totally swept under the rug, is what's happening. Kevin Spacey showed himself to be unable to deny the allegations against him, even though he probably could have. There have been times when the "callout culture" has gone too far and plenty of reasonable people have pointed this out before it went too far. You're fantasizing about this being a witchhunt and persecution of innocent people and it is straight up not that. James Franco's career is still intact. His allegations were valid but the crime didn't equal the complete decimation of his social capital. Reducing a struggle against rape culture to "bourgeoisie witchhunt" is silly to me, especially when the most prevalent "victims" are themselves rich liberal actors/directors who deserve it.

Yeah… Obviously. What is not so obvious to idealists though is the fact that they have to deal with these systems in real life all the same. Preserving popular conceptions of justice is in our interests when the next purges come.

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The facts show you're guilty of a bourgeois deviation.

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Can confirm. I have autism and I worked this dude on my campus from the party, he definitely had it too.

We should all join the Sovereign Citizen Movement.

Yup all these attacks against the micro sect cult SEP are just like the attacks leveled against the Bolshevik party. Chill out, jack off, and play video games my friends. The ICFI will lead the World Socialist revolution and you guys don’t have to do anything as usual.

Fat fuckin chance. You're just gonna be in the way as usual.

I like the SEP. They're one of the only real Marxist parties in the US. They also aren't Marcyist or reformist fuckheads like most American "Marxists".

Leave and never come back rad lib.

Join the IMT; they are also anti-idpol leninists without being dogmatic sectarians who call for workers to stop paying union dues and other retarded shit.

Unions aren't in some sort of stasis, transformations in working class consciouseness also transform unions. Look at unions in the UK they used to be cucked, but now many of the largest are led by ML's and they've been insturmental in getting Corbyn elected. It's true unions often play an anti-rev role and many modern unions are business union, but its better they exist to give political expression to worker militancy when it arises.

Agreed, let's split an international we made after this.