Dharmic Socialism Thread

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_economics

Check this out; it's spicy.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uchiyama_Gudō

buddhism is not strictly about monastic life and staying away from politics.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engaged_Buddhism

why not, isnt india at least a fabian socialist country on paper?

Yeah, and it is also a secular, non-Hindu country on paper in order to manage that.

I can't figure out how Hindu socialism could work because I think a classless society would necessarily not have the Hindu version of the varṇa system, which is rooted deeply in Hindu scripture.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varna_(Hinduism)

Many on this board consider Hinduism to be a "Fascist" religion, based on their caste-based social system. India itself in the modern day has cracked down on the caste system to a large extent, and Hinduism has adapted to this, but who knows in which direction Hinduism is moving now, especially those of us who do not live there. One could argue that Hinduism has moved away from its roots according to the vedic texts and the ancient form of religion that was once practiced by the Indo-Aryan peoples, but nowadays the caste system is considered a staple. Buddhism, along with Jainism, were founded as anti-caste philosophies which were created in opposition to Hinduism. Perhaps Buddhism and Jainism are closer to the original truth taught by the Vedas and by the oral teachings of the ancient traditions, but that requires further research.

I doubt that it is the case that the Buddhist and Jain reformulations of the varṇa system are closer to the Vedic one, since both arose really early in the time of the Vedic religion and both have numerous early scriptures detailing their founders having arguments with the brahmins of the time regarding caste and whether or not it is based on birth. So it seems even really early on the brahmins saw themselves as a kind of aristocracy.

bbc.com/news/magazine-30983402
"China's super-rich Communist Buddhists"

Reading more about the history between Communists and Buddhists, it honestly seems like much of the conflict was manufactured by the Americans as a response to expanding Maoist anti-religious influence over Asia. One thing to consider is that, were it not for Americans utilizing Buddhism as a religion opposed to the state Atheism of China, they may have in fact reconciled and worked together to reduce the suffering of the working class in China and in Asia in general.

Speaking of the current Dalai Lama and his relationship to China, he was quite close to Mao.

"“He [Chairman Mao] appears to me as a father and he himself considered me as a son. [We had] very good relations. The only problem was that on many occasions, when official dinners were held, Chairman Mao always used to bring me to his side. So, then as Chinese tradition, Chairman Mao himself would use his chopsticks to put some food in my plate. So, in a way it was a great honour, but in a way I feel little fear…he coughing too much, a chain smoker, so I might get some germs [laughing].”

I think the same is true in Vietnam, since the early socialist leaders in the country were highly amenable to the religion, but then the Americans started trying to use Buddhism as an anti-communist tool in Southeast Asia (the "Saffron Curtain") and the party may have reacted to that by suppressing Buddhism to some degree.

Though it isn't really that suppressed in Vietnam, people are pretty free religion-wise.

Related to the Saffron Curtain;
politico.com/magazine/story/2017/09/10/us-history-myanmar-communism-buddhism-215590

Get out reactionary

I am a Buddhist before I'm a communist, so I suppose you'll just have to kill me despite my desire to be on your side in the fight against capitalism. Tragic…

What is Communism if not material Buddhism?

What is Buddhism if not spiritual communism *thinking emoji*

the madhyamaka dialectic advances, and the wheel of dharma turns…

There just isn't enough to read on the subject. I suppose reading sutras will do.

youtube.com/watch?v=lnf3hVSdqe8

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youtube.com/watch?v=xU3VhKfj1ec

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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuvan_People's_Republic

Here's their flag.

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Unrelated, but I really don't like the official Buddhist flag. The World Fellowship of Buddhists should have picked something else. This Tuvan one looks pretty nice, they should have done something like it.

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it was my impression that buddhism is strictly about monastic life and staying away from politics because the principal goal of buddhism is attaining enlightenment to the neglect of everything else.

The principle goal of Buddhism is to follow the enlightened path of reducing suffering by as much as possible.
Enlightenment is the proper understanding necessary to accoomplish this.

The telos of attaining enlightenment requires behaving altruistically towards beings of all kinds. There are various early scriptures in which the Buddha describes to lay followers and monks alike how they should try and help beings. Furthermore, not every Buddhist can be a monk, and every extant Buddhist tradition has stories of laypeople that nevertheless managed to attain awakening. These people all did so while acting in the world and engaging with it, trying to assist it.

For example, one of the most revered lay disciples of the Buddha was his physician, Jīvaka. The Buddha gave Jīvaka various advice on living a good lay life, and Jīvaka did so, eventually attaining at least one stage of awakening, though some Buddhist traditions' scriptures say he made it all the way to final liberation.

Jīvaka not only was the Buddha's physician, he was a practicing physician in Magadha as well, and he treated poor patients for free.

This is a secularized view. Nirvāṇa is actually held to be attainable and is considered the highest goal of extant Buddhist traditions, and this idea goes back to the earliest Buddhist scriptures. However, attaining nirvāṇa does not necessitate ceasing one's engagement with the world. Monasticism has its place in Buddhism, but so do laypeople, and laypeople must engage with the world. The Buddha said his goal was to establish a fourfold assembly of monks, nuns, laymen, and laywomen, not to establish a twofold assembly of monks and nuns.

enlightenment isn’t an understanding of how to reduce suffering, it is itself the end goal and the only way to become free from suffering under buddhism. are we even talking about the same belief system? the buddhism i learned about revolves solely around their meditation practice. everything that’s done by monks is done only in consideration for the optimal way of practicing meditation without distractions, that’s why they don’t work or get involved in politics. if a monk is assaulted and can only survive by employing self defense, they’re unambiguously supposed to die.

Regarding the status of monks and politics, read The Heritage of the Bhikkhu by Sri Walpola Rahula, a notable Sri Lankan monk and socialist (who was kind of racist, but forgive him for it while you read since it doesn't affect the value of that particular work of his).

Regarding the status of Buddhism and politics, the Buddha did not just establish a monastic sangha. He established a fourfold one consisting of monks, nuns, laymen, and laywomen. The laymen and laywomen interacted with him frequently and received his teachings. Some attained the fruit of awakening, despite not being monastics. They continued to act in the world and thus engage with politics.

This means there is such a thing as a possibility of a political Buddhism, or a Buddhist political/social ethic.

i’ll be honest i don’t know too much about buddhism and am not one myself it just feels wrong that a buddhist would do or say anything that could reduce their own or other people’s chances of atttaining enlightenment given that it’s suppsed to have infinite value. it’s like if a christian doesn’t mind you going to hell he just doesn’t have your best interest in mind.

Right, which is why they don't try do or say such things. My point is that it is possible to form a political/social ethic from this individual ethic, and this idea of a Buddhist social ethic goes back to the time of the Buddha and is integral to the religion, so politics and Buddhism aren't fundamentally separate things.

I'm not sure. I only have a rudimentary understanding, after all. It's admittedly hard to accurately describe the state of enlightenment, since i'm so far from it myself.

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Śākyamuni Buddha refused to describe it positively, for reasons that make sense given the Buddhist philosophical perspective on what final liberation actually entails. It sort of can't be positively described by definition, except for that definition itself. We can describe it in terms of what it isn't though, and it is not suffering. So it is true that the path that leads to final liberation is also the path that leads out of suffering.

bigthink.com/postcards-from-zizek/slavoj-zizek-on-buddhism-and-the-self
What is your take on that?
I find it mostly bullshit of course because I've read 道元 and I somehow instictually know that Buddhism can be reconciled with even the worst (best) form of anarchism straight from the mud of the Neva
And of course the future of cybernetic degrowth that will save the world and use the secondary contradiction of climate change to install communism will accept some form of post-Nishitani dharmic/confucian as its spiritual casing.

And I base this on a material reckoning, because the East Asian sphere is where demographic/geographical constraints, productive forces and planning meet to produce a local optimum for this kind of development.

Russkies and Anglos can just say borders closed and play at resource extracting fashie pseudoethnostate, and the EU will probably turn into a smileyface fortress soon, but if you look at one satellite photo of the Mekong or Pearl River Delta you just know that the PRC and others have some smart people working on similar issues right now.
And Japan's economy is basically a very delicate minimax problem with a trans identity of postmodern hellscape by now, so I'm sure there are people there too.

So, I'll skip the usual questions about ethics and so on but I would like sources and w/e on the following things, if available.

Buddhist take on Anthropocene/ Alienation, my trail for good modern buddhism got jammed by so many fucking freaks and I just gave up, if any responsible people can give me a book I'd be glad.

Also sources/takes on Vajrayana and Shingon please, if you can find a social aspect to that I'll be glad but good commentary and source texts would suffice.

Could there ever be hope for a lefty Sokka Gakkai type of organization? Lots of volunteering and solidarity and so on? Are there any examples?

Anything else you'd like to add or say, especially on fucking Dougen, I love that guy, and I've already read or bookmarked everything in this thread and more books please.

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In Metteyya Era the need of market and agricultural will be eliminate people will get things from giant kalpa trees in stead this is what Theravada teach.

Huh, that article is interesting, since it is a much better take on Buddhism than his main line about Zen militarism or whatever. He seems to actually engage with Buddhist philosophy a bit.

That's interesting that you're so sure about this. I have had some similar thoughts, but I don't know if it is necessarily the case. Why do you think this will be?

Jill S. Schneiderman has written some papers on this I think. In terms of canonical works, there's a lot of stuff about the progression of history, but here's some things that comes to mind:

"At a time when rulers are unprincipled, officials become unprincipled. When officials are unprincipled, holy men and householders become unprincipled. When holy men and householders are unprincipled, the people of town and country become unprincipled. When the people of town and country are unprincipled, the courses of the moon and sun become erratic. … the courses of the stars and constellations … the days and nights … the months and fortnights … the seasons and years become erratic. … the blowing of the winds becomes erratic and chaotic. … the deities are angered. … the heavens don’t provide enough rain. … the crops ripen erratically. When people eat crops that have ripened erratically, they become short-lived, ugly, weak, and sickly." - AN 4.70

"At present, brahmin, people are excited by illicit lust, overcome by unrighteous greed, afflicted by wrong Dhamma. As a result, they take up weapons and slay one another…
When this happens, sufficient rain does not fall. As a result, there is a famine, a scarcity of grain; the crops become blighted and turn to straw…
When this happens, the yakkhas release wild spirits…
Hence many people die." - AN 3.56

"There will come a time, mendicants, when these people will have children who live for ten years. Among the people who live for ten years, girls will be marriageable at five. The following flavors will disappear: ghee, butter, oil, honey, molasses, and salt. The best kind of food will be finger millet, just as fine rice with meat is the best kind of food today.

The ten ways of doing skillful deeds will totally disappear, and the ten ways of doing unskillful deeds will explode in popularity. Those people will not even have the word ‘skillful’, still less anyone who does what is skillful. And anyone who disrespects mother and father, ascetics and holy men, and fails to honor the elders in the family will be venerated and praised, just as the opposite is venerated and praised today.

There’ll be no recognition of the status of mother, aunts, or wives and partners of teachers and respected people. The world will become promiscuous, like goats and sheep, chickens and pigs, and dogs and jackals.

They’ll be full of hostility towards each other, with acute ill will, malevolence, and thoughts of murder. Even a mother will feel like this for her child, and the child for its mother, father for child, child for father, brother for sister, and sister for brother. They’ll be just like a deer hunter when he sees a deer—full of hostility, ill will, malevolence, and thoughts of killing.

Among the people who live for ten years, there will be an interregnum of swords lasting seven days. During that time they will see each other as beasts. Sharp swords will appear in their hands, with which they’ll take each other’s life, crying ‘It’s a beast! It’s a beast!’" - DN 26

"There comes a time when, after a very long period has passed, the rain doesn’t fall. For many years, many hundreds, many thousands, many hundreds of thousands of years no rain falls. When this happens, the plants and seeds, the herbs, grass, and big trees wither away and dry up, and are no more…

…this great earth and Sineru the king of mountains erupt in one burning mass of fire. And as they blaze and burn the flames are swept by the wind as far as the Brahmā realm. Sineru the king of mountains blazes and burns, crumbling as it’s overcome by the great fire. And meanwhile, mountain peaks a hundred leagues high, or two, three, four, or five hundred leagues high disintegrate as they burn. And when the great earth and Sineru the king of mountains blaze and burn, no soot or ash is found…

…So impermanent are preparations, so unstable are preparations, so unreliable are preparations. This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all preparations." - AN 7.66

On the Tibetan side there's a zillion good books on it you could fine googling, so I'll give some for Shingon: Kūkai: Major Works, The Weaving of Mantra, Shingon Buddhism: Theory and Practice, and Kūkai on the Philosophy of Language are good English works. If you know Japanese, check out 田中成明の真言密教入門.

I think the existing Engaged Buddhist organizations could definitely be pulled left, especially since a lot of their leadership have expressed anticapitalist sentiments. Especially given the threats of climate change, which many Engaged Buddhists leaders seem to care a lot about, there's a lot of ground for left-wing stuff.

The International Network of Engaged Buddhists is a meta organization for Engaged Buddhist groups.

My interaction with that lineage of Buddhism is primarily through its Vietnamese communities, so I don't know much about the Japanese trends. I've been meaning to read some though, since I am sympathetic to that kind of East Asian Buddhism, even though I have been immersed in Indo-Tibetan culture throughout my life and thus feel much closer to that kind of Buddhism.

Clearly we should understand this to mean that Metteyya will establish full communism!

I think we could definitely use some form of moral or psychological support on this board and within the ideology. Leftists focus so much on the issues of the world that we tend to forget about our own well-being. I'm not entirely sure in what way this could be done, but i am certain that leftism requires some anti-demoralization campaign, especially with the high rate that people give up entirely engaging in politics because of how numerous our enemies are, and because of personal problems which nobody has an answer for.

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Yeah Yeah, Buddhas fully understand that the need of work hinder people from studying dharma and practicing vipassana. I never get it why a lot of Trots joined Zen or Theravada sect with heavily zen influence like Santi Asoke or Suan Mokkh after 80s while still preserve their anti-capitalism point of view after study more in to Buddhism.

正法眼蔵 still informs my worldview in many things, and for me it is one of the most beautiful pieces of literature ever written, so especially if you know Japanese give it a try.

Also if you're into Mishima's plays and some of his novels too (e.g. 絹と名察)
you see this flirting with leftism in many ways , among them the quest for formlessness and the dissolution of Subject-Object those stuffy Kyoto School guys like as well, so I think it is a very fertile theoretical ground for examining some of the things going on right now, and 真如(tathata) is a word we should be using a lot more, I feel. And really Mishima is crazily good, those rightoids are soiling his name, this is what Samurai Situationism looks like.

Finally I think the environment will be the wedge for many things, but nature must be detotalised too and maybe this can be a way forward.

I've read the Dhamappada too and most of the motifs of parables repeat themselves somehow, if you get my drift. I can't explain it fully but it's like in 能 , there is a general harmony and I half recognize half understand texts running on the same thread, and regarding the future do you maybe know any Vietnamese or IndoTibetan monographies/ commentaries on Manjusri and Maitreya? They're practically Cockshottian liberation theology if you just write the right LN about them.
And I'm phoneposting because fuck mods but I've read lots of jap stuff and largely ignored the continent.
Finally my confidence in cybernetics stems from 1.optimism 2. really look at satellite photos of the Mekong Delta or the Pearl River or the Gobi or Himalaya or, and keep the stats in mind, maybe you have family there too, no idea, but people need smart ideas fast, real fast.

Also about the spiritual casing part, that's the easiest thing. Find a girl who likes topology, among other things and use 方便(in accordance and communion with all the masters) to help her write a 10000 page Hard SF novel and the 5th classic will also be Applied Haruhiism and all things to all people, and really imagine someone like 青葉市子 talking about hysteresis loops and Sraffian tables and namedropping Kolmogorov and Murakami (Ryuu of course) you'd end the silliness of "alienation" with a fell sweep.
It really would become Tripitaka and Das Kapital and Dostoevsky together.

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Uh, have you ever heard of buddhist national posadism yet friend? Pic related.

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Maybe when there is one Muslim majority country with more than 10 domestically built supercomputers Islamic communism will become interesting too.
And yeah Iran has its cute aspects, but maybe you should just correct the kaffirs with all the Muslim treatises on Husserl and Heidegger and all those observations Feynman and Heisenberg made on the codependent emergence of being a camel thief.

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Just convert to Buddhism, bro. Stop trying to shill for Islam.

There are over 10,000 Universes or more according to Jayamangala Gatha when Buddha warned the most powerful Brahma name Paga who can see and govern those universes that thing isn't permanent that his end will come in 1 kalpa, and there is a way to born in other universes if earth you live is about to meet an end the deva will come to warn the living being of that world since if you don't pray to born in other universes you will trapped in that dead universe forever, so living being in other universes are exist according to Buddhism. Truly woke religion.

1. The world isn't warcraft.
2. Even if it is, there are more teams than whitoid and muzzie, and there are new mods out every week.
3. Maybe you should start reading books without elephants in them, Babar isn't a reliable guide for postcolonial relations and the Quran isn't a reliable guide about anything.

This, make some green tea and start with the Dhammapada, it's very poetic too.

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gee i dunno maybe there's some reasons as to why socialists are more willing to accept one over the other.

Where is /leftypol's/ reverence for MATERIALISM ONLY and NO IDPOL ZONE now? It's almost as if these two lines of argumentation - while admirable in their essence and the basis of any Marxist analysis - are primarily used on this board just to justify the worldview that an anime loving, whitoid, ex-polak, eurocentric, slightly racist, unathletic, autistic gaymer first worldist with little to no heterosexual dating experience (sorry FBI trannies) who unironically listens to heavy metal, anime openings and the OST of Initial D would have: Muh genderism bad (but pls dont ban prostitition uwu), muh idpol bad (but Muslims are bad bc camel um yeah but Buddhists are good bc of my warped view of Asia bc I watch too much Asian porn and anime lmao Buddhists are super peaceful you know? Just like the BASED hindus. Yeah christcoms are dope too. Yeah fuck Jews though lmao), muh LGBT, muh hwhite slander, muh incel oppression, muh Reddit sucks we're totally different they are not cool online people like we are (insert smuganimegirl.gif)

A lot of you guys are just the bizarro version of the liberal idpolistas you claim to abhore, just seen from the other side. There is absolutely no logical reason to cry about materialism in the Islam thread and praise Hinduism in this thread other than the points I have stated above. You all claim to be free of spooks but you just have different spooks inside of you.

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I have no problem with non-materialism and have never claimed to be a materialist. You need to calm down. Anyways, we should remain civil and settle our differences. Tell us about Islam and we can compare and contrast our beliefs where we can examine ourselves and learn from one-another. Buddhism has never claimed to be exclusive.

I don't just think Abrahamic schools are bad. There's plenty of utterly trash religions. Greco-roman religion and Egyptian religion especially was pretty blatant class control.
It's also worth noting that there are plenty of secular readings of Buddhism that are still coherent and useful and fulfilling that don't contradict the claim that the material world proceeds under its own rules and logics. There's a few other "spiritualities" (I guess some people want to call them instead of religion) that are pretty decent like the Zoroastrianism thread that came up a while ago.

Why do you cling so hard to religions that have, especially in the modern day, shown themselves for the truly tools of the upper class they always were?

Hinduism looks like the transcendentally totalitarian yaoi pastiche you seem to screech about, I've only read the Bhagavad Ghita with commentary but it shows its Vedic roots as the master morality of an invading religion, and recent events tend to reinforce that view but I still stay neutral and just ignore it.

Buddhism can with relevant additions and modifications be the only ancient and widely established school of human spirituality that can coexist with postclassical physics, their community seems willing and able to stand up to the scrutiny and its cultural sphere includes most remaining socialist countries and capitalist countries with even more advanced productive forces, and they love planning too and the culture interacts with those processes.

I just don't give a shit about Islam either way because it's on its way out anyway.
Now go read or shit up some other thread.

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Duh, look who fucks Buddhism.
books.google.co.th/books?id=dkE4DwAAQBAJ&pg=PA267&lpg=PA267&dq=leftist monk&source=bl&ots=hPybBq1Z6w&sig=ACfU3U1-Cz_uoneyhneQsQV3EXvET0BuDQ&hl=th&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjfppePgs3iAhVZiXAKHUnoBcsQ6AEwCnoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=leftist monk&f=false

This is blatantly false. Ho was never a devout Buddhist, the photos of him in Buddhist monk uniforms are mainly disguise for him to foster socialist sentiment and recruit revolutionary in the Vietnamese community in Thailand. Since the Thai government at the time was working with both French and British intelligent to try and capture him like the other Vietnamese revolutionaries of the time (most notably Nguyen An Ninh and Phan Boi Chau). Thailand being a Buddhist country, having a cover as a monk is perfect for both social works like teaching and spreading socialist ideas in the guise of religious teachings.

With that being said, his usage of Dhamic socialism was the crucial element in building a revolutionary base in the Vietnamese communty there.

This is not even mentioning the help of Buddhists in overthrowing the US's puppet Ngo Dinh Diem in 1963 with their self-immolation.

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Shiggy Diggy

Will you listen to yourself?

You can't have it both ways.

Either you

(a) accept that all religions are trash and go full /r/atheism, thus alienating billions of people simply because of misunderstanding a Marx quote and watching too many Dawkins videos, needlessly wasting revolutionary potential in the third world while you can bet your ass off that the CIA will be smart enough to use religious sentiments to their advantage (see: Mujahideen, Saffron Curtain)

Or

(b) you accept that opposing entire religions politically for reason X while supporting entire religions for reason Y is in itself idealist.

Here is a possible take on religion a Marxist can have:

1) Religions can be and should be relegated to a private sphere in any socialist society.

2) Oppressing religion will only lead to reaction down the line, something that must be avoided

3) Instead, a socialist reading of these religions should be actively supported by the state - something that is possible for ANY of the world religions, not just InuyashaReligion.jpeg. This means state overview and control of the contents spread (how much depends on the society, its political form and the stage of development).

4) Any interpretation of religion that becomes an active roadblock in advancing science and education must be ignored in that specific case (e.g.: some Muslims not allowing girls to go to school must of course be ignored because the girls' right to education and the state's obligation of educating weighs higher than their parents right of childbearing in this case)

5) The state must offer freedom of religion, as well as put atheism and agnoticism as the same level as any other religion.

6) At the same time the state must be warry of certain strands of religion being used for reactionary purposes (sects etc)

You just need to read some books and calm down, many Muslims also drink a lot of tea, Turkish tea culture is cozy too.
I actually drink Darjeeling right now and you sound rather subcontinental yourself so just have a cuppa and everything will be ok.

Why allow "private" practice of religion?
The church cannot be separate from the state, lest it serve as a private institution. We must not allow churches to serve as businesses taking payments from the poor for meaningless quote mining (such as what happens in christian megachurches).
All religious institutions must be nationalized.

That I agree with. I meant private in the sense of individual, personal, secluded.

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What the fuck are you talking about? Lmaooo

Why shouldn't we be able to pick through the content of religions to suppress that which is not useful to our cause and promote that which is? It's blatantly obvious that we're going to have to accept religion to some level, why should we not choose what to support instead of accepting wholesale the products of centuries of reaction followed by their plasticizing under neoliberalism?

Why do you believe you can selectively separate religious moral code according to a criteria?

Every single government has used the malleability of religion as a form of social control and used selective readings and interpretations to reinforce their social code and adapted their religions to fit them.
Except socialists who are such an in materialists that they know the only possible things to do with religion are reject it in its totality with state enforced atheism or accept it wholesale without questioning the content of any of them

Fuck buddhism, religion of the slave, feudal remnants of the past.

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HAHAHAHA

I hate you Zig Forums.

You can be leftist only if you set yourself on fire

Dalit Buddhism mostly died with its leader though, and it was primarily a social movement set against the conditions in India at the moment, so it is of little use as a reframing of Buddhist modernity in s global scale.

But if there's something in their doctrine you find relevant, please share.

Cool reply Zig Forums XDXDXDXDXD