Social Democrat here

I'm not talking to you, you are beyond redemption.

For being so tolerant you sure are a bunch of closed-minded LARPers

just like the USSR currently?:^)

Pro-worker reforms inevitably get reversed. You need to make a change to the fundamental class structure of society.

If you're a radical socdem who's ready to do that I think you have a viable position. It would be nice if we didn't need an all-out revolution to get to communism.

But that's not what you're saying so fuck it. You have a dumb position. Read Marx.

this isn't entirely true. The needs of the economy shift over time but things like universal healthcare, the 8 hour day etc aren't going anywhere.

Do you work for a living?

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yes

Do you care that a portion of the value produced by you labor goes into the pockets of people who did nothing to produce that value?

see my OP

So you don't like being exploited you just see no other options? How do you feel about unions?

yes. Unions are good

You know how you often hear opponents of single-payer healthcare bring up how "bad" Britain's system is? The reason for that is that the Tories have been cutting spending on healthcare and social services, increasing demand while restricting supply. The long-term goals of efforts like this is to justify privatization. Same deal with most of the supposedly "inefficient" public services you hear about- spending is deliberately low for the sake of benefiting the upper-class. And unfortunately, because capitalism inevitably produces massive inequality via the extraction of the value workers create, wealthy people will always have disproportionate influence in the government because of the extra time, resources, and general economic security they have which allows them to get deeply involved in politics.

That all being said, I do think pursuing social democratic reforms and building dual power structures such as worker co-ops, while not enough on their own, do more to create conditions that bring us closer to socialism than circlejerking over the USSR and looking down on anyone who demands reforms.

Are unions desirable simply because they improve conditions for workers or is unionization still worth pursuing if taking that course of action causes a backlash from management that involves calling in strikebreakers to crack heads?

Yes there is a fluctuation on the money allocated to the NHS, social democracy is a mixed market economy with room for both private and public entities. While there is debate on how much of healthcare is private or public no one except for radicals are wanting to fully privatize it.

Unions bring about better conditions for workers. "strikebreakers" "crackingheads" is something in the past

So those early efforts at organization and unionization in the developed world weren't good since they were largely failures or were they necessary and important steps in advancing the rights of workers to be studied and learned from?

I'm going out for beer if this is still up when I return I'll respond. Cheers.

capitalism is going to destroy the planet. thread shouldn't get any more complicated than this. we're all going to die for some old fucks profit

How were they failures? they help get us plenty of benefits

all of these doomsday predictions have 1 thing in common: they've all been wrong

I'm glad we agree. Extend this logic to every other working class movement in the the 20th century and congratulations, you're a communist.

those weren't all successful so no I am no

How they are wrong,can't you see?
Things are going shit…day by day

You already admitted that a movement doesn't have to be successful to be worth supporting and learning from. Now you're just being pedantic and illogical again.

what "things"
life is better now than it ever has been in human history.

no i didnt

Op thinks he can vote to a better tomorrow.
Lol tell me mr. bernie bro how that worked out?
Liberalism a disease, on
the core of our planet so go along casting your "vote"! The reason 20th century socailism turned out has it did was because NATO was always next door it had to be severely centralized to survive. Yet it accomplished what it took capitalist nations a full century to do a decade or 2. UncleSam WILL NEVER let you vote for a worker benifical society –→NEVER ←–! also your a entitled 1st worlder prick "muh Scandinavian model" well guess what they benifit greatly from imperialistic efforts of 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸NATO🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸. So yeah go along beinging fine that YOUR place is better for workers now, seems to me you couldn't give a fuck about those 4+ billion struggling every day from imperialism and neocolonialism!!!

Socdem policy is a delusional ideology were you make things better where you live. While you continue the exploitation of else were!!! internationalist communism is the only way ALL workers get a better life. The problems and there are many(though many are cold war propaganda so LOOK AT BOTH SIDES OF THE STORY) wont be a thing when the capitalist next door is gone!!! A libertarian socialist state is very much possible and already heavily layed out if you take the time to read into it. Read marx and read into all and every other far leftist readings then come back and tell us you half baked bullshit is adequate. YOU WONT youll either be a comrade or a no hope lib so which will it be, learn and see for yourself. If you really think your make my 1st world nation better fuck the rest ideology is the answer.

Shut_the_fuck_up_liberal.jpg

Post some please user needs a collection

But you can. That has been the case in every Social Democratic nation since their inceptions

Do you have any actual examples of Social Democratic nations benefiting more than just a marginal amount from what you consider "imperialism and neocolonialism?"

That's literally the goal of people's actions in the political realm

which exploitation?

maybe in theory but it hasn't been able to produce the same standard of living for the population as Social Democracy has, not even close.

the reality of this says differently.

2 things, first this implies you can trust the vote, for a place like America you can't.
Second try that in a non European country and watch as all of a sudden there precious minerials and oil need democracy, because because 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸NATO🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸 feels there being oppressed.

Yeah the scandinavian countries they've literally like the rest of Europe bacame wealthy of imperialism. You saying marginal like they didnt help invade iraq?
Also marginal lol, you a marginal racist? im sure if its marginal its not a big deal liberals I swear.

user if I deny how capitalism makes 3rd world countries into sweat shop bitch states. I dont have to deal with the inherit inequality of capitalism.

maybe in theory but it hasn't been able to produce the same standard of living for the population as Social Democracy has, not even close.

The USSR did what england and the US did in a century in a few decades!!! since its fall there has been a drop in living standards and a rise in fascism worldwide. Again seems your bent on what socdem policy has done for European countries.

the reality of this says differently.

Did you miss the part were i mention international? I really think you dont understand the dynamics of NATO vs Warsaw pact! how that effected the state structure to be more centralized.

Why be so hell bent defending liberalism?

Good thing I'm talking about Social Democracy and not America

So Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand? are you just going to ignore those?

In terms of the whole middle east situation countries like the US are bleeding money in a neverending war.
If the nordic countries benefited so much where is the actual proof they did?

Where do these sweatshops occur in?

yeah hows that working out for them

So why would I support communism if it has ended in ruin multiple times?

Its not that I focus only on what Social Democracy does for a country but the negative impacts of other systems on their countries as well.

So you're agreeing with me when I said in theory it makes sense but in the real world things don't work like that?

I believe that the goal of human action in the political realm is the raise the standard of living for the citizenry as a whole. As so far Social Democracy has done that the best.

Even if the democracy is good and because of this things are good this doesnt stop the imperialism of it!!!

2 European dominated countries and 2 historical US capitalist vessal states! Do you know anything about history?

In terms of the whole middle east situation countries like the US are bleeding money in a neverending war.
If the nordic countries benefited so much where is the actual proof they did?

You'd have to be really dense to suggest the economic imperialism of nato and the eu doesnt benifit Scandinavia!!! I really talking to a wall? they have been benifiting through oil and cheap oversees Labor like the rest of Europe god you so eurocentic.

Where do these sweatshops occur in? I dont know maybe LOOK IT UP? where user I dont see any (its like your not capable of admitting the massive exploitation of the 3rd world)

yeah hows that working out for them?

60%+ want to go back, the better question is hows capitalism working out for them!

So why would I support communism if it has ended in ruin multiple times.

To stop the extinction of humanity and save you from years of corporatist fascistic dystopia.

Its not that I focus only on what Social Democracy does for a country but the negative impacts of other systems on their countries as well.

Social democracy will allways collapse into neoliberalism soon into complete fascism what about that impact?

So you're agreeing with me when I said in theory it makes sense but in the real world things don't work like that?

Nope im saying you dont understand why 20th century socialism was the way it is and why it doesn't have to be thay way in the future.it seems you still dont!

I believe that the goal of human action in the political realm is the raise the standard of living for the citizenry as a whole. As so far Social Democracy has done that the best.

For a few white countries it never increased life expectancy by 25 years in less then half a century. It has a provable increase of standards between similar capitalist countries at the same rate of development!