I'm for real, Zig Forums. No troll, no fake concern. I'm venezuelan and I have no absolutely idea of how you guys could even begin to make an argument in defense of Maduro and his shitshow.
I'M ACTUALLY CURIOUS.
How do you even begin to defend the Venezuelan fiasco?
I'm for real, Zig Forums. No troll, no fake concern. I'm venezuelan and I have no absolutely idea of how you guys could even begin to make an argument in defense of Maduro and his shitshow.
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Did I say that, though? I'm asking for a real argument, yet the first thing I get is a strawman.
Genuinely elected leader with some socdem policy > American imperialist puppet who bleeds the people dry
Literally no defence is needed.
What is you class background?
i'm assuming you are ethnically Venezuelan with gusano parents because your english is solid, you are an ancap, and you are posting on an american website.
the humanitarian crisis has been wildly exaggerated by the western media. Their major problem is shortages of things they have to import, like medicine, diapers, toilet paper, etc.
google what the UN investigator sent to Venezuela had to say about the situation
Lmao wtf was your argument? Maduro and his shit-show? You mean being the president who the majority support over a traitor with intents to turn Venezuela back into a US puppet regime?
Never another Chile.
Lmao these gusano fucks are worse than the normal reactionaries in Burgerland
Well I don't really care about what Maduro does either way, I just think America should keep the fuck out. Chavez started out as a nationalist who went socdem but at least he's no fash.
We must consider that China has sent 69 tons of medical equipment and food aid. How much has the USA sent to Venezuela?
Middle-low class, mom and dad were both very poor as children.
My mom lived in a barrio, like some kind of favela. I visited her home multiple times and I still do because I love my family.
Chávez was geniunely elected, that's for sure. But he did tried to do a coup.
BUT, elections after that were blatantly manipulated.
The Smarmatic CEO publicly admitted Maduro & Co. messed up with the electronic voting machines.
Meh, ancapism is a meme, I'd consider myself a minarchist.
Have you ever considered the reason we had to import even national products like god damn caraotas (black eyed peas) and rice? We used to fill the national demand and even export. Then AD/COPEI-Chávez hit and we went full retard with oil-based economy and seizing factories and farms.
Source of that? I live here and I'll tell you, chavistas and maduristas are blatantly mocked in public. There's virtually no support for Maduro unless you're directly benefited by doing it.
Dude what the fuck is a gusano, I've never heard that slang here.
Really? I've literally never heard of that chinese aid. I've seen mexican food on the CLAP boxes, and chinese buses working on public transportation (although the majority is in non-working conditions due to shortage of fix parts)
Explain to me how Venezuela is socialist.
You could start by giving one.
Never the less a popular anti imperialist leader.
A gusano is a filthy traitor Latino whose parents ran away to America either for fear of having their property expropriated or due to watching too much Hollywood and ads, they show their “love” for their people by begging the US to sanction, subvert, and control their home countries.
Heavy price restrictions, seizing of public property and services like internet, power, water and gas. Subsidying of oil to the poin an egg is more expensive than a full tank of gasoline,
Chávez was charismatic af, Maduro is hated even by his own men.
Ok, that sounds like a rather specific kind of person. I've never met someone like that.
what do your family think of Maduro? and of Chavez? were they supporters who turned against the party? are they still supporters? Maybe critical supporters?
Sometimes we have threads here where people post the political views in depth of each family member, would be interested to see you post the same
Gusano is mainly used to refer to Cuban Americans who fled during the Cuban Revolution or who supported/backed Batista.
Then it's just a mixed economy. There's nothing to prove Venezuela is socialist.
They hate Maduro with their guts. Mom was never interested on politics so she never had a strong opinion on Chavez except that he was a dumb military man.
Dad actually voted for Chávez at the first election, though. Would you believe that? He explained to me that the bipartidism system of AD-COPEI was incredibly corrupt and caused a mayor economic fuck up, and then Chávez rose up and promised a firm hand against that kind of stuff.
However, he said that Chávez specifically presented himself as a democrat (there's a video of that youtube.com
And to the rest of your questions, hard no. But I completely understand why my dad voted for Chávez at first, but I feel like Chávez just blatantly lied 'till he went full red and had Castro as his mentor.
Not exactly much to mix when private investment is non existant and foreign money is heavily restricted.
Would you blame then, though?
My ancap friend, Venezuela had what is known as a market failure. This is literally only possible under a market.
Salvador Allende was the leader of Chile, who was assassinated in a US backed coup
Sure, but only because the government relied too much on oil to fund their welfare system.
You could blame the government, or you could blame the markets.
I don't think Venezuela is socialist, since their private sector contains much more of their GDP and employs a higher proportion of the population than the public sector, but blaming this on the government isn't unreasonable.
Show me one actual instance of NOT having a market.
Salvador Allende was a buffoon, come on. If you want to criticize Pinochet that's ok because he had that despot air on him, but Allende was just plain incompetent.
Any pre-market economy.
Considering that Smartmatic is an enterprise operating on a multiplicitous "solutions-platform" of
- Solutions for 'smart cities'
- 'identity management'
We can gather that it has multiple contractors, despite it's base in Venezuela.
There was a controversy over the fact that it had been complicit with Comelec in the Phillipines election. If it had a fundamentally left wing Bias and corruption it would have swung out of Duterte's election to the opposition.
On top of this it received a fairly large influx of investment before the 2004 recall. Both from the SBC buying a 28% share and also direct investment from the private sector. It should be noted that public scrutiny caused the company to repay it's loan before the election that it was running.
A pessimistic view of this is that it is definitely a company that can have it's systems bought to grease the wheels of democracy and has had more than one bidding war in this case. But because of it's solutions framework for elections it chooses where the polling locations are as well as managing pre-election infomanagement such as supplying the voting intentions of registered voters as well as controlling the database of registered voters and registration itself.
Long term identity management eventually gives this company massive assets in personal information, particularly in developing markets where it has held elections. A reminder that managing elections is also advertising in the country for other services, the kind of tech services emerging markets aren't able to produce for themselves and definitely makes this company liable to a cambridge analytica type situation except on an arguably larger scale, due to the rent they have after this much operation.
It's roots are in Venezuela, but it's Board is piled with Pricate sector interests including the CEO of Pi Capital, and has Operations in Brazil, wider Latin America, The Asia Pacific and the US. For some reason Cesar Flores is also on the Board.
Following up on this the parent company is SGO corp which upon a search doesn't have a wikipedia, but also doesn't show up on a basic ruin of the deletion log which is kind of worrying. It's big enough to have one. It's a assets and holdings company based in the UK (member the gold fiasco) Also interesting on top of that, on it's front page SGOcorp has a human trafficking and modern day slavery statement up the top.
It's called an 'annual statement' But don't let that fool you. No Corporate puts a statement like that on it's front page unless it has been forced to through a corporate lawcase. The usual slap on a wrist now make a statement and pursue a personnel strategy bullshit that passes for justice.
It looks like the SBC consortium doesn't exist anymore and it doesn't look like SGO has any shareholdings by the PSUV or it's aligned entities so It's safe to say that it is a private entity running towards it's best interests and it's optimal investment strategy, which includes a high price on deviating from fair elections and it's global market strategy of being a trusted supplier of it's ==solutions==
Ok my dudes, it's like 11:30PM and I'm not a NEET. If you keep this shit alive I'll answer tomorrow.
just so OP knows anyone on this board who criticizes Maduro gets banned. that doesn't mean everyone on this shithole agrees with BO's sentiment.
How exactly did Cybersyn help Chile so much anyway?
I read it helped to distribute resources extremely efficiently, but how? All I see is people posting pictures of their ebin control room.
I showed you my effortpost, ==ANSWER BACK==
The board ownership was transferred to a volunteer.
wait really? what happened?
not that I'm complaining
BO randomly resigned, there was a whole thread about it:
They helped coordinate the truck drivers scabbing a CIA-backed strike, and avoid catastrophic shortages
Shows you what unions are worth lol
I know you're a troll then. It's funny but the Marxist-Leninist party and Democrat Socialist party is opposed to Maduro
I really hope marxists learn something from this.
Wait, hol up. So Venezuela's election's use closed-source proprietary electronic voting machines manufactured and serviced by a private corporation, just like in the US? When I heard people in the past claim that Venezuela in fact has one of the most trustworthy election systems in the world, the only way I could make sense of this claim is if they use open-source public machines whose code is audited regularly by independent bodies. Even then using computers to handle the machinations of elections still invites massively more opportunities for election fraud due simply to the increased attack surface of a computer over hand-counted paper ballots. But no, really Venezuela uses the same shitshow of a system as the United States?
1. 70% of the venezuelan economy is stilll private which means its not socialist - YET.
2. All of the bullshit you cite of price controls etc is indeed a problem as they are half measures. EX: doing price controls leads to the wealthy hording goods instead of selling them, causing shortages.
If maduro went full socialist, instituted a DOTP, and implemented a planned economy none of this shit would be happening. The oligarchs wouldnt be able to horde goods and blast their propagandas on tv day and night because they would be gulaged.
Maduro needs to take off the kid gloves and shoot that fucking GUSANO guido in the HEAD.
I'm sick of right wingers acting like Venezuela is socialist and the exact model western leftists want. After 20+ years of """"socialism"""" there is still private industry. Imagine if the soviet union still had 70% privatization in 1937.
Maduro needs to seize the means, turn the remaining private enterprises into workers coops/planned state enterprises and implemented cybernetic planning for BASED CYBERNETIC 21ST CENTURY TECHNOMARXISM.
KILL THE PORKIES, CLASS WAR NOW. ALL HAIL THE IMMORTAL SCIENTIST
Good way to spark an American invasion or just have him replaced by some other dickhead
maduro shouldnt literally execute him, he should just be there one day and the next day no one ever saw him again.
implying that wont happen anyway. Its not like the burgers were stopped from invading Iraq, Afghanistan.
again, implying that wont happen anyway.
Alot of people here are still spooked by liberal democracy. Liberal democracy and socialism are not compatible and we should stop pretending they are. The only thing electoral-ism can lead to is defeat and compromise.
My defense is mostly from an anti imperialist standpoint, America only wants to help out Guaidó so he can give them a special deal on le oil.
Most don't defend Maduro, they oppose western intervention.
The US has way too many spooks with eyes on their puppet 24/7. Killing or even imprisoning Guaido could precipitate a civil war.
stalin would have shot him by now
looks like one is needed
Yes, their code is auditable and this is important to keep in mind as smartmatic has been audited by independent bodies specific to the elections that they have provided their services in.
I can't be fucked or am having a hard time finding exactly who audited their elections where but bodies involved with the Armenian 2017 election using smartmatic involved the International Elections Observation Missions (IEOM), Jimmy Carter foundation etc. In the 2017 Armenian elections the OSCE (organisation for security and co-operation) were citing instances of vote-buying, and pressure on civil servants and employees of private companies. Transparency International, along with various other organizations, confirmed cases of bribe distribution
For specifically the 2017 elections in VZ it was the Smartmatic CEO itself that came out and proclaimed that the tally was out by a million votes. Independent auditors said it was out by anywhere from like six to three respectively. The big controversy surrounded the contents of 'leaked documents' from the Venezuelan electoral council which stated that out of 8.5 million votes, only 3 mill had been cast by thirty minutes before the end of voting.
Even if this were true, and I'm not saying that it is, there is the problem of non-electronic ballots being cast from the regions, and the destruction of voting centers/trucks by opposition that would require special voting permissions for people who were prevented from voting, but there is almost no reporting on that fact.
It should also be kept in mind that the electoral comissions are still the primary body responsible for carrying out the election itself and no observing body has been able to cite real instances of voting fraud, gerrymandering or vote-buying.
The allegations have been centered around people being able to electronically vote multiple times, because their identities weren't properly checked, which given an identity based electronic voting system with fingerprint and facerec id that is controlled, manitained and audited by a private company seems a little more than flimsy.
If it is possible, it could spell widespread corruption on the PSUV's part, or very jittery election officials afraid of being molotoved. But the fact is that no more than vague waves in that direction are cited as hard evidence.
Because it's open source? Or because it's "open" to a select group of auditors?
What is the status of voter-verified paper trails in Venezuela? Do they regularly perform Risk-Limiting Audits? Are they hand-counted audits, not simply running paper ballots through computerized scanners?
2/2 It's also interesting that on Smartmatic's website It's released case studies from it's other elections up to 2018, but only cover's it's Venezuelan elections up to 2015, which were all top examples of democratic process.
This should all come across as fishy.
if some comrades could find anything attached to the exec/comittee names posted along with this, it might prove useful.
open to a select group of auditors, sorry should've clarified that. I'm not too familiar with IR/electoral jargon.
In the 2015's Parliamentary elections they performed risk-limiting audits and it seems to be a regular feature of their audit process.
Their Voter authentications are biometric so the entire process is automated, it is a little unclear as to who gets to see and what exactly they see. They sight that auditors are able to see 'changes' made. The auditing is in that case on their tertms, with the information they had collected through their machines, but it is operated by pollers of the given electoral commission, but yeah. It's phish.
based and redpilled
Smartmatic CEO is a pro-opposition liar. He claimed he had evidence of 1 million "fake" votes. He provided zero evidence of this. The CNE director said this was bullshit as he was in no position to have any such evidence. More than a year later he has still provided zero evidence.
Simple, the dude was making shit up out of thin air because he knew people like you would believe him without evidence, the US government would believe him without evidence, the US and global capitalist media would believe him without evidence, and he could push the political agenda he wanted by lying with zero consequences. In fact, he'd only be elevated in his social circles as a brave hero for lying, which is exactly what happened.
You dont have to defend the Venezuelans, you simply need to have basic understanding of the situation. Capitalism is an international system and imperialist nations are like a corporation in the competition of the nation-states. Their role is to buy out all of their competition, and small, newly formed nation-states simply cannot compete due to the inferiority of technology and self-sufficient resources. Venezuela is a CAPITALIST COUNTRY because the root of their production process is determined by private production and thus it cannot compete with the imperialist nations, who are currently in the process of destroying Venezuela's ability to contain working class revolutionary struggle in order to install a coup and give US corporations free rein of its soil.
Venezuela failed because it was a capitalism that tried to compete with the United States and was crushed. Socialism is the dominance of public production under the control of the democratic masses over the entire world and since 1917, no such attempt has been made.
Reminder that under AnCap logic Truman who literally did the Truman Doctrine is a fucking Communist
How do you even begin to defend US interventionism?
Dunno, ask me AnCom about the k*Rds.
daddy wants some oil stocks
I don't get why Maduro simply doesn't call on chavistas and burros populations to just go out and seize the property of rich people in Venezuela?
Why is this bumplocked?
Mods don't like discussions? I dunno.
Also, thank y'all for taking this seriously. I'm not making an argument in favor of interventionism, I'm just curious about how people would even BEGIN to defend Maduro when he's showed to be incompetent and useless.
He already did lmao. Colectivos and comunas are literally invading private properties and building shitty huts on private land.
No source, fam?
It’s honestly bigger then Maduro. Even if you don’t like him, it’s hard to deny that the Chavistas were doing great things for the majority of Venezuelans. Sure they screwed it up eventually with stupid policies like price controls, failure to diversify their economy, and perhaps overspending as well as not doing enough to tackle corruption. However under Chavez the Venezuelan people gained access to rights and privileges that they never had before, and which the opposition will take away from them if they return to power. The downfall of the PSUV would just mean a return to the 90s, which if you’re a real Venezuelan will know was also a total shitshow. Even if you ignore the fact that the US is standing by to turn Venezuela into a colony, the simple truth is that economic crises come and go, but these rights, once lost, will be VERY difficult to regain. In other words is not about Maduro or even the PSUV, it’s about the Bolivarian Revolution, it’s about the rights that Venezuelans have gained in the past two decades which will be taken from them if the opposition wins, not to mention the country’s national independence.
you clearly haven't
the private sector fucking grew during Chavez
Chile is one of the better countries in South America. Comparing them to white nations or north-east asian nations is retarded.
Do you have a single source confirming that everyone who fled or was forced to fled Cuba was some kind of mustache twirling slave owner/white master that exploited poor farmers?
I'm fairly young (19 yo), I don't /really/ know how good was PDVSA in the past, but most if not all people I've asked, plus own research, has told me that PDVSA was productive and competent enough to compete with the whole world.
What do you think will be lost? I'm not exactly enjoying a fuckton of benefits thanks to Chávez.
Let's begin with gun control: Who stopped the proletariat to arm themselves in the first place? Chávez.
I think his idea is that this crisis can pass and the party can make things better in the future but the opposition won't make a serious attempt at it.
is that why Assad pays for their healthcare?
(1/1)I'll Consider making this into another thread specific to what I'm doing but catch this shit.
I'm making a second spread of images after this post, but refer to
So interestingly enough Smartmatic reformed under SGO Corporation in 2014. The CEO and co owner of smartmatic formed this along side Lord Mark Malloch Brown, who works on "International development" for the world Bank.
The advisory committee, the board and everyone involved are based out of the city of London as a headquarters. Also on their payrol as comittee members are ex independent electoral commission members from Nigeria and South Africa, Paul de gregario the guy who invented Rally, the current president of the National electoral institute in Mexico and David Giampaolo, the CEO of the aforementioned Pi capital group that functions both like a hedge fund and capital raising group for cross border transactions. The dude is called the most well networked man in London. Also Based out of London, Is Paul degregario.
Richard Soudriette whils also serving on the board of the Internation elections advisory committee, but also worked on the CSCE in the Armenian and Russian election cycles.
So for a short summary, not only did Antonio Mugica Tear apart SBC which was Venezuela based in 2014, but took his company to London, registered it as a holdings company with a member of the WORLD FUCKING BANK on the board and in charge of it's parent company and them proceeded to put the members and leaders of the fucking Auditing bodies onto their committees and Boards payroll.
And you wont even believe the next part.
malloch Brown is ON LITERAL FUCKING SOROSBUX
2/2 more images
3/3 more images and not to mention Malloch was VP of quantum funds in 2007, which has holdings in London New York, the caymanIslands and CURACAO just off the shore of VZ, but under the netherlands.
Lower class Venezuelans don't know English and certainly wouldn't know about Zig Forums. Don't fall for it.
Dead thread, but anyway, the short story is: timestamp or GTFO. Do it and maybe they'll remove the anchor.
Dear GOD/GODS and/or anyone else who can HELP ME (e.g. MEMBERS OF SUPER-INTELLIGENT ALIEN CIVILIZATIONS):
The next time I wake up, please change my physical form to that of FINN MCMILLAN of SOUTH NEW BRIGHTON at 8 YEARS OLD and keep it that way FOREVER.
I am so sick of this chubby Asian man body!
- CHAUL JHIN KIM (a.k.a. A DESPERATE SOUL)