Every time I talk to libertarians I lose brain cells and feel violently angry

By basic economics, libertarians usually refer to the Economics 101 class they took in high school.

Imo I find libertarians to be more pleasant to debate than Zig Forums types. However flawed and stupid it is, they at least have concrete theory that can be debated. Fascists are literally impossible to debate because they have no theory or any real beliefs, just gut feels, so they can and will lie and shift goalposts endlessly. Libertarians have a specific theory they have to defend so it's not as easy to weasel.

Of course at this point like 90% of online libertarians are pretty much nazis anyway so the distinction is kinda moot.

Libertarians/liberals are intellectually equivalent adversaries. The typical nationalist conservative is a drooling retard but with these guys you can have a real debate.

I often can't tell the difference between Zig Forumstards and lolberts anymore. On Zig Forums, sure, but on Reddit all the fascists have given up the welfare corporatism of the OG fascist and replaced it with pure unfiltered AynCrap. People who flare themselves as a lolbert on r/capitalismvsocialism (what a hellish sub btw) are often just too shy to openly declare themselves a fascist, they often have insanely conservative social views, they all like Trump, etc. - sometimes you meet a dinosaur OG lolbert who actually care about stuff like surveillance state, LGBT rights, etc. but they were probably IRL lolberts and didn't become lolbert through the wave of edgy internet politics.

Lmao it was Capitalismvsocialism that enraged me to the point of making this thread, these are the most retarded shit-for-brains lolberts I’ve ever encountered, the ones in my college are stupid, but not flat out retards. And every other thread is them whining that socialists either are too “upvoted” (read: have better arguments) or are too mean. Fucking gross

but you're doing the same thing here. denying supply and demand and vomiting CLIMATE CHANGE like the programmed little goblins

Marx was well aware of supply and demand and its place in political economy.

neck urself

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unfortunately Marxists don't understand that.

I literally never said this retard

There has been no more accurate and useful branch of economics than the marxian school today.

define useful
because so far marxist economics have been a failure when compared to the success of capitalist ones

wHeN fEuDAl cOuNtRIeS aRe wEaKer ThAn iNdUStrIaL eMpIrES

In what way have they failed, loltard?

every marxist state ever

It’s easy to fail when the most powerful empire in history tries to destroy you

Lolberts need to drink bleach asap

so you're agreeing with me now

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The USSR was incredibly successful and advanced at rates unprecendented in the capitalist world, going from semi-feudal hellscape to spacefaring nuclear power in 50 years. The only capitalist country with comparable progress was Meiji Japan and it received massive international assistance while the USSR was at economic war with most of the world

Saying socialism failed because the USSR collapsed eis like saying that Rome was a mere failure because it was eventually sacked, in the face of everything it contributed to civilization

you confuse an economic system with the study of economics.

Lmao, so long as capitalism exists workers will eventually destroy it and give you class traitors the bullet along with the bourgeois, try as you might to bury Marx eventually he will destroy you

yet it had the best marxist economists in the world and still turned out capitalist

really? cause the opposite seems to be turn. Capitalism has came out of socialism more often than not

The USSR covered several generations. And surprisingly, it failed when the leadership decided to take a turn to market economics after rejecting Marxist solutions

Socialist countries were destroyed by the reality of the Cold War, capitalism as a system however will be destroyed by climate change and/or World War III and when that day comes class traitors like you will be put to the wall

None of this goes against what I am saying. The USSR failed and reverted to capitalism
Capitalism won out.

Yes the ideological battle between Communism and Capitalism where capitalism won

lol dooms day prediction

It took 500 years for feudalism to be destroyed, you’re celebrating your victory prematurely. Capitalism will die and its defenders will die with it,

Keep telling yourself capitalism will last forever, you’re already reverting to climate change denial.

There will be no mercy for lolberts

I mean I can make random predictions about how mercantilism is irrelevant now and compare it to Marxism
unless there is substance to you're argument, predictions are useless

keep telling yourself a failed economic system is the future.

No you are.
Also Marxist states pollute the environment just as much as capitalism so if you think Socialism will save us from climate change weather you're delusional

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Where is the success of capitalism in India, where Kerala is the area with the best living standars? Where is the success of capitalism in South America, the rest of Asia and Africa?
What about the US where people live in trailer parks or are homeless in the richest country in the world? Where people with full time jobs don't have teeth because they can't afford the insurance?
What about Europe, where countries whose economy was considered "stable" and "flourishing" got blown away by the 2008 crisis, which by the way the fairy tale "science" (a science must be able to make verifiable, repeatable observation of the future to qualify as such) of economics, along with the technocratic elite these countries entrusted their governance with, didn't predict? What about how these crises where dealt with, and with even the IMF now apologising about how they treated, for example Greece, with their retarded, inhumane policies?
And what of the climate, getting hotter every day, while our natural resources are dwindling, our social fiber rotting and human life becoming meaningless other than a daily grind to supply our daily needs, in an era of such abundance?
What of automation, which could have already made, and doubtlessly in the very near future will make, labour obsolete, unless sustained purely for the profits of the owner class?

I didn't say it succeeded every where I said it was more successful than communism

what about it? People are free to fail. Even then in the US the homeless are the richest homeless in the world.

and yet the poor still have iphones. Lots of people value their material possessions and bad diets than their own well being.

yeah a correction in the market from 10 years ago what about it?

they didn't predict it now? There have been plenty of people warning about the housing bubble prior to 2008

what about it?

and these Marxists states haven't been any more friendly toward the environment than capitalists have

how is this not a good thing?

lol yeah Cuba Marxism has had 150 years, countless revolutions, a communist bloc that took up most of asia and half of europe and the best its not for the environment is a piss poor country in the Caribbean that is technically "sustainable" thats pretty weak honestly

How am I ignoring this? This isn't an argument in favor of marxist its another example of its failure.

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Most EU economies are still smaller than they were in 2008 you absolute retard, you're trying to wave a Lost Decade away with muh iphones bullshit, and growing America has 1 in 4 on the poverty line and that's overoptimistic, you're spoiling Mister Land with your shit non-argument.

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Supply and demand curves are unempirical pseudoscience invented to justify the system without actually explaining how it functions. They have zero actual predictive power and frequently require more parameters than there are data points.

out of the whole post you only reply to 1 point?wew

what metric are you using to measure that one

Marxist economists were almost the only ones to accurately predict the 2008 meltdown.

...

What did Rome actually contribute to civilization? A love for oligarchies, hierarchy, and perpetual debt? The Greeks did all the heavy lifting.

I know it's been posted time and again here, but check out this interview with french marxist economist frederic lordon where he talks about the 2008 bailout : youtu.be/BpaqC6hKsQo?t=274

and so were libertarians

Well walls of neolib text have their comical value, I suppose. I only answered because you're disgracing Mister Land, read his books before demanding basic education for free.
voxeu.org/article/finance-and-investment-europe-s-lost-decade
Here's even the EU admitting shit is fucked, if you need sources on US poverty there's that
debt.org/faqs/americans-in-debt/poverty-united-states/
Apparently the 1 in 4 statistic only counts for children, and that's according to your sociopathic poverty line, so congrats. You got a (you)

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Amazingly the only stage genre they invented was the satire, and that tied in to the alienation of imperial power and class struggle and so on according to some lefty philosofags but really they were the US of the ancient world.

rofl which ones? American "libertarians" and their cult-like worship of neoliberalism don't have anything resembling a crisis theory.

How is marxism and all those predictions on capitalism collapsing and ending up with a communist utopia not unempirical pseudoscience

so you can't answer the question. alright.

>voxeu.org/article/finance-and-investment-europe-s-lost-decade
no its not the article is just about the crisis in 2008 and the problems the EU had with the Euro a couple years later.
it does not prove your previous point sorry try again.

Pete Shiff, Ron Paul etc.

this is the same for marxists as well

The difference is a science can be falsified. Marx's labor theory of value, for instance, predicts a general overall decline in capitalist profitability punctuated by waves of periodic increase. If we look at the data and saw, for instance, a long-term increase in profitability, we could say that it was wrong and modify it or move on to a better theory. Now, what kind of evidence would you need to falsify supply and demand curves?

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How is marxism and all those predictions on capitalism collapsing and ending up with a communist utopia not unempirical pseudoscience

This 2009 nostalgia bait is funny at points, I'll admit. Now fuck off and at least read Land.

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Marxists have quite a large body of literature on crisis theory. It's the Keynesians and neoliberals that have no overall theory whatsoever for the deep cause of periodic crises. All they can do is analyze each crisis individually and pretend that some regulation or deregulation will ensure it'll never happen again.

I just explained the difference smartypants. Being wrong is part of the scientific process. It's when you can't ever be wrong because your theory doesn't make testable predictions that you have a pseudoscience.

ok so you've ran out of arguments?

What are you talking about? are you just ignoring anything any modern economist writes?

this is their overall theory on market crisis.

no you deflected and didn't answer the question

and?

That's not a theory of why periodic crises happen in the first place.

each crisis has a different reason for why it started.

Europe's economy flatlined 10 years ago and American life expectancy is slipping and you're supposed to argue that capitalism is a success and say shit like richest homeless in the world. Can't argue with religious people, sorry.

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Your question wasn't very clear. Apparently you're constructing the false dichotomy assumption that if supply and demand curves are pseudoscience then everything Marxists have ever predicted was scientific? And baked in it the suggestion that if you're wrong about something you must be a pseudoscience? As I explained, science isn't about being right, it's about falsifiability.

And that's what supply and demand curves are. And unfalsifiable pseudoscience equivalent to druids inscribing pentagrams on paper to impress their students.

Great, so we agree.

lol

"flatlined" is not an economic term do you have an actual argument?

source? How is life expectancy in China or North Korea or Laos?
The countries with the highest Life expectancy are capitalist bud.

seems like you're the religious one here

How is marxism and all those predictions on capitalism collapsing and ending up with a communist utopia not unempirical pseudoscience

thats pretty clear.

you're just saying things you don't like are unfalsifiable now.
If prices in the real world didn't operate the way they do and is reflected by supply and demand curves they would be false but this is not the case

American average lifespan has been dropping for the last several years now. People live a few years longer on average in Cuba.

if you're agreeing with me now then I guess so

GDP is stagnating, household debt is rocketing up and Deutsche Bank is prepared to spin off a bad bank that will make AIG look healthy. Search your grifting profs for sources.
At least I'm glad I'm not American, even though neolibs are destroying healthcare systems across Europe through 'reforms'.
Still, very good bait.

and? you'd have a point if the US was the only capitalist nation but its not and the countries with the highest life expectancy are all capitalist

Because Marx's scientific theories make predictions that can be confronted with data.

Those predictions don't generally aspire to be scientific.

You're actuing like this is something new. it happens from time to time.

source? and why is this bad? debt can be used as a tool to buy houses. Home ownership is a good thing

deutche bank is also failing

Hands off the NHS you mongrel bootlicker, how many times do people have to repeat that. Here's what milquetoast socdems think of lolberts.

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except they're unfalsifiable

scientific socialism is not scientific?

sounds pretty capitalist honestly good job

Again the issue is predictive power. Supply and demand curves are always fitted to data post hoc because they can predict precisely fuck all.

Oh yeah? Which one? Please explain which theory articulated in Marx's Capital or Theories of Surplus Value was unfalsifiable.

Capitalism is currently destroying UK health outcomes, tho

thats what it is suppy and demand just plots data points what do you think it is?

Capitalism will collapse and we will reach global communist utopia

this isn't true

Neck yourself

Useless crap?

That's not a theory, that's a general prediction. One that Marx never made, by the way. And since it could clearly be wrong, it actually is falsifiable.

whats wrong with this

well you're arguing against something that isn't even real

sounds like useless crap

Can you give a quote from Capital saying that capitalism will (not should) collapse and will (not should) be replaced by communism?

why are you limiting it to Capital?

Probably because not every word ever put to paper by Karl Marx was attempting to articulate a scientific theory.

Because it's Marx mature work. He was writing fruity poetry as a teen and for a short time progressive liberal things as a young adult, but these don't fall under the umbrella of what people usually refer to as the science of Marxism.

More successful at what?

ok so you're leaving out the parts where he was wrong lol please

Just as a note on this, this is also retarded because you full well know that kids born in trailer parks are much more "free to fail" than kids born to nice suburban families.
Oh and about the people in trailer parks - think about what kind of background they come from.
You are supporting a vicious cycle of inequality.

Please explain what "freedom to fail" even means, especially comparing a kid born in a trailer park with a bourgie kid.

Absolute smoothbrain take, how do you even manage to get by daily

Raising standard of living bring technological advancement etc.

Do I think that if people make poor decisions they should face the repercussions of that? yes

Nice anecdote.
notice how you said you'd rather be homeless in a capitalist region than in China or Cuba

because the homeless in the US and Europe live better than the homeless in China

except you can't prove that anymore than saying its their own lack of intelligence that has lead them to value iPhones over their health, which is pretty fucking terrible

just saying things are wrong does not make it true.

ok you can say that but if thats the case then it has fail far less than communism has.

it is.

ok this is just butthurt.

because the economy isn't controlled by one or two people? because there are multiple actors at play here?
some companies were yeah
bad analogy

ok what about that?
Are you under the assumption that I said "capitalists never make mistakes"?

Yeah its a single third world country so sure out of all the attempts over the last 100 years if a single third world country is more sustainable is the only success marxism can account for itself thats pretty pathetic honestly

Like I said above, is this suppose to be an argument for marxism? if anything it just shows its failure.

thats what you're doing

Libertarians are monsters, it just means there should always be a suffering underclass.

Libertarians fucking dont deserve to live, holy shit

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