It's too late for us to win

There was a point in time at which we could have won, but we have shot right out of that window of time without even noticing at we did it. The quote about there being either socialism or barbarism is true, and we're getting barbarism, every month that passes the chance of barbarism relative to the chance of socialism grows higher and higher. Get out while you still can, try to build a future that doesn't suck but don't try to do it by coopting the framework that is about to be destroyed.

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I can't even deal with defeatism anymore. Shit like this just makes me suicidal. I can't watch an hour long lecture on this shit.


Next step is to not take it as a total defeat.

Neoliberalism would have basically turned us into human batteries if it wasn't so doomed and content at continuing to run in the direction of a brick wall. Although we will never touch the stars, we will probably never have a human set foot on Mars, we will probably die with everything else larger than a cat the next time that happens, the resources to get to where we are now have been exhausted and will they be completely exhausted after we collapse so that we will never be able to achieve this again, it's not so bad. We've lost but not totally, the people we wanted to throw off are going to get it now too, as much as they think they're prepared (and they are very much preparing, if nothing was wrong they wouldn't be buying bunkers and homes in New Zealand like they are) for what's about to happen. We need to look at tomorrow and see what we can do about it. The heat death of the universe is inevitable anyway, what we set out to make will fail eventually, so it can't matter when or where the last person croaks or else we wouldn't do anything. Focus on what's happening in front of you instead of spending the extremely short amount of time you have left before the price of food increases by an order of magnitude wallowing in despair like a retard. Would you rather live in a world where nothing happens to the bastards exploiting us at all, or would you rather live in a world where change happens? Do you want burnt ground or liberalism?

You were born into the period of history in which industrial capitalism collapses. If that isn't both great closure and a great opportunity I don't know what is.

Billions of people are going to starve to death but you don't have to be one of them, and you can help the right people not be them either. Unless you have a death sentence like diabetes or a chronic disease hanging over your head, even if you're an autistic loser, if you can do basic menial work to the extent that you can benefit an agricultural community, and you have the knowhow by the time there's nowhere else for you to go, there is no reason you or the values you carry have to be defeated. Try to preserve art, science and philosophy so that it can be made useful in the future. Give your posterity the ability to read, Marx, Hegel, the natural sciences, germ theory and whatever else they need, and eventually they'll use that to capitalise on what happens after this phase of collapse is finished.

What’s the point of this shit, why not just suggest suicide and be done with it.

Fuck doomerism, whatever it takes to achieve socialism, even if the world is dead

You made a doomer thread just today..

Looks like you can count me out of the future. Not like i didn't expect to die soon anyways, though.

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Just smash shit and you'll feel better.

that's in your head lmao, I get the same scores on those tests (as does everyone else here) and put in the bare minimum to achieve what I need to achieve without getting my fudge packed in. It's the result of living in a dysfunctional setting in which life is deeply unfulfilling and in which you are expected to work to benefit something that will either destroy you or itself. All you need to do in that environment is work enough and in a good enough direction to make it out in time.

unironically this

Also why do you have this shit saved on your computer bro? Delete that shit right now, telling yourself you're miserable and identifying with your misery might not be the root of it but it certainly makes it worse. You're a pioneer, not a sad sack.

This right here. Putting a label on your shit does you absolutely no good neither in dealing with nor figuring out the cause of it.

The collapse of industrial civilisation and striving to build socialism are not mutually exclusive.
Remember this guy and what he set out to do? Remember all of the people that died of starvation simply because the land couldn't carry millions of urbanites? Those people are going to die anyway, the Earth simply can't carry them and the cities they live in won't be good for anything.

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Alright. I don't think deleting pictures on my computer will make the depression go away though.

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No I didn’t dude, I said the world shouldn’t exist if America can terrorize everyone, not that the world will end and there is no hope

Is this the real social fascism?

Alternatively the cities can be turned into giant urban farms, the farms can be reforested, and both can be geared towards carbon sequestration

Saving the environment that existed for all of human history is now impossible, but we can try making the world a tropical Mesozoic Eden as fast as possible if saving this one can’t be done.

Remember, for most of the time life has existed there wasn’t ice at the poles and forests or deserts covered the globe, if saving OUR Eden is impossible then we can create a new one and try seeing it through.

Modern agriculture relies heavily on petroleum. Modern crop varieties rely on industrially-manufactured pesticides because they direct too much energy to their fruiting bodies to fight infection on their own. Think less vertical farming, think more perma-culture and crop rotation being cutting edge. Certainly nothing in cities either because the land has a finite carrying capacity

As for the forests, I would like to hope that enough of the people trying to cut them down will drop dead for them to grow back. In truth though, deforestation was a bigger problem in premodern Europe than it is today, poor people would use seaweed to heat their homes. In the long run we are probably quite fucked in this regard. Still, humans and every other living thing would eventually be wiped out or turned into an engineered product were the industrial system not doomed so we still got an ok case scenario.

At least you're calling it the depression and not my depression. You're not attached to it, there's no depression growing in your body. If you want to bring up the brain chemicals argument try dopamine fasting, you can do things about it while still in this incredibly shitty environment.

My thinking is a combination of genetic engineering to try and make resilient crops for hydroponics farming (all the shitty finance buildings in my home city NYC should become vertical farms), filling the city with as much plan-life as possible. Think, permaculture in the cities as well as in the country. Mankind must reconcile our place in nature and try and merge our society with nature as much as possible, our cities should be part forest as they are part, well, city.

And I say we need a massive nuclear power grid to form the base infrastructure for energy sources, with renewable sources like wind and solar built on top of it. Basically nuclear as the core to power us for thousands of years, with solar and wind to supplement our lives.

I think what will be essential is trying to build an energy infrastructure in our planet’s orbit alongside the move to transform our lives and society.

I'm going to digress hard here but look at National Soycialism. National Soycialism is above all a worldview or, as George Lincoln Rockwell put it, a philosophy for life. Most Zig Forumsacks who think National Soycialism is a political programme are just brainlets who happen to hate Jews and blacks, anyone who can think critically and sort good ideas from bad ideas should read National Soycialist literature. In the 21st century we should learn from fascism and National Soycialism.
A core component of the National Soycialist worldview is struggle. As George Lincoln Rockwell pointed out in similar but different words to me, even standing up is a struggle against gravity and we're all going to croak, so if you can't find something positive in struggle you're not doing it right.

The system won't collapse overnight though, it will collapse over several decades in a process that is right about to start from the energy return on investment of petroleum extraction declining. There won't be time or place for research teams to develop fixes accessible to ordinary people while the economy is literally collapsing. All the debt that's added to the gdp means nothing in material terms anyway, the economy is declining now already because of the declining energy return on investment due to only harder to access petroleum being left, giving us less net energy to invest into everything that isn't working at an oil rig. You're bargaining man, I'm sorry but NYC is doomed, New York State is doomed in large part (, you need to get out.


Lmao, I said what could be done, not what I think will actually happen

They’ll try saving NYC but it’ll eventually descend into chaos as 8 million starving people battle for survival, it’ll likely make Stalingrad look like a pleasant dream

Shut the fuck up and grab a rifle.

National Soycialism when you break it down is more or less natural order/law, universal order, struggle, blood and soil. nutsacs don't necessarily prescribe any economic model which is why you had strasserists (who, if they read marx, wouldn't have had any problem with marx I'm certain). The first we don't need to pay attention to, universal order (ignoring metaphysics) is good praxis which although I don't think we need as scientific socialists is a very well enunciated argument for why we need to act, struggle is a no brainer, blood and soil is gay because tribalism is gay so we don't need that. There's some things we can take and some things we can discard.

Nazi praxis was a mishmash of social democratic and communist activism sprinkled with Thule aesthetics and cop support.

but basically we need to be as aggressively existentialist as possible while telling metaphysics (and by extension being a gay faggot that cares about being intellectual, about morals, about being "right", anything that's an idea because I can force anything to be real if I have the power to enforce that, 1+1 can equal 3 if I have a gun to your head) it can wait

before 1945, maybe

Naziism had no real beliefs and was only even partially sustainable through a war Germany never could have won

After that it's hitting on your local fed for meth money and occasionaly mass shooting unarmed brown people.
Great praxis.

okay then retards, it was just a digression, clearly you can't understand the movement or the worldview
the main thing still at hand here is not starving to death

Nazi fags are retards, what do you want us to say?

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Here's the plan boys.

I kinda feel shit knowing late in my life I will see something worse than the great Chinese famine

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what are you going to do to not die?
you have a few decades
the EROI of our society is going down real fucking fast

I'm curious now. What is this about Deng and environmentalism? Did he write some books about environmental society or something?

Well I've saved some money and I'm gonna buy a farm in the next couple of years.
If I can get it up and running soon enough this guy is welcome but he has to promise to do the craziest Maoist shitposting all day, and maybe some urban terrorism too.

He wrote a very short text that we should plant more trees.
I don't think there was some massive environmental effort. That didn't happen in the 20th century. As the story about the sausages goes: Deng during the long march joked with his friend about food he liked since their bellies didn't have any. Funny thing about Deng is that he frequently got purged to various shitholes and went on hungry.

I just realized that once internet is kaput so are my E-books.

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Thanks for the link. I think that if Deng was alive to see the situation of our oceans he would update this text to "Plant Trees Everywhere, and send to gulag everyone whom throw plastic into the oceans"

Or maybe "Excellence in plastic production is one of the foundations of the theory of productive forces, no ultraleft deviations pls".

Actually it’s the opposite of the answer

this is how I slid into this mindset
can you keep going? once transportation and modern agriculture are kaput, so is your food. once the power plants are kaput, so is your electricity. once the processing plants and the infrastructure for it is kaput, so is your clean tapwater. think about everything that is going to be kaput in your lifetime, given the direction of society that you can't change in time. What do you think your cause of death is likely to be if you do nothing from this point onwards? Prepare.

Aactually, it's worth noting here that a lot of NSDAP aesthetics comes straight from communism, the synchronized mass calisthenics and swimming, sho on sho forth
It get's really blatent with strasserism, a black flag for fascism's syndicalist roots with a sword crossing the hammer instead of a sicle
They're cheap imitations
Here's a good one, one time some german couple had the gf saying a social realist painting of soviet officers planning during the attempt to reinforce and aid the german revolution just after WWI looked like a Nazi painting

not just your food and water, actually. that's too vague. what you had for breakfast. the clothes you wore. the shower you had. YOUR stuff that you are using to stay alive and reasonably content right now

What worries me is that I barely have knowledge about this. My father is a peasant from Poland born in the 60s, so for him woods are like a second home. He literally knows which leaves you can eat and which you don't. Which shrooms, which fruits, etc. I have no clue how to even know that. I'm going to miss ya friends when the net goes down.

Go hunting/foraging with him. All sorts of shit. Best friend's dad was an agronomist in the Ostblock and really most hikes felt like training for being a commie guerilla, I know Poland is flat as hell but you still have the forest.

the thing we have to be more concerned with right now is that once the feds btfo this site we're gonna have to scurry like rats to other places where we're more split up and going to get swamped by corporate shill dsa types larping as socialists

nothing we do over the next few decades to influence the society that's about to collapse matters. let the dsa have at us, they will literally die when the time comes. we need to make sure we don't

Reminder that every change in modes of production was preceded by an environmental disaster and corresponding population bottleneck caused by the existing mode of production.

Anyone watch the whole video in the OP? Check out 47:16

Probably, but we still have to try our best regardless. You never know if some geoengineering scheme is going to kick the can down the road long enough to invent scalable c02 removal tech.

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You don't have to, because this is not entirely true, we have a massive numbers of people working in unproductive sectors, where people do shit that isn't strictly necessary for the upkeep of the "civilisation systems", the energy use of luxury consumption is actually huge. We can actually bring our energy consumption within the budget of a renewable and nuclear power sector, without significantly interfering with stuff that is important for our standards of living. The super wealthy do have a gigantic energy-food print because as he falsely indicates all the power of money has an energy cost, and we can use cybernetic planning, and use far less energy per given level of organisational complexity, because markets really are inefficient. Some of the simpler geoengineering stuff like painting all the roofs and roads with reflective pint would get us -1 one degree on average climate.

It has loads of inaccuracies as well, there are Direct solar to fuel technologies that are near development levels where first larg-ish scale pilot plants are being build to test the viability of industrial scale production. Also the Energy return of energy investment of nuclear power has a theoretical sealing of about 2000:1 for liquid nuclear power reactors with 200:1 real world application , the best Oil sources were around 100:1.

He's right about the waste driven abundance being over but bear in mind that this is mainly a Story about Phoenix from that Ashes, with a bit of rapture mixed in where the decent people get a new beginning.

Also the material reality here is that somebody might have been wanting to push your emotional buttons, consider that the neo-liberals want to you to think locally so they don't get regulated. So just in case this was posted in bad faith to get you to look down at the ground: In your mind picture strong internationally enforced rules that curb transnational coroparations and numerous Socialist countries, that are cybernetically planing their labour-voucher economies, within the bounds of ecological limitations.

Nonense, the capitalist mode of capitalism was caused by the steam engine

Capitalism existed prior to the Industrial Revolution, the Industrial Revolution simply accelerating its growth.

That's technically true, but the steam engine is what made it stick, before the industrial revolution some feudal systems could actually achieve better results.

So an event that was practically inevitable allowed capitalism to uphold itself?

I'm not sure what you mean, i would say it's fair to view the industrial revolution as inevitable, but we have seen feudal societies going to state socialism, so … not sure if capitalism is needed, maybe only one country needs capitalism to develop the means of production.

Socialism wouldn’t have been conceived without capitalism and the states to do this were specifically following Marx

Socialism would have fixed things but it didn't because we failed to implement it in time. If breeder reactors actually are the way (I dunno, I'm not a nuclear engineer but they seem pretty good aside fromt he waste) then the barriers on them seem to be largely political and economic. Maybe memes like fusion would stop being memes, who knows?

Either way, the phoenix that rises from the ashes will shit in a chamber pot and be 2 billion strong after mass starvation litters the streets of every metropolitan area on Earth with dead bodies bloating in the sun. There is literally going to be no food. No food = people die, if it took decades for Russia to fix the famines it inherited from the tsarist era what hope does the capitalist west have of fixing this shit ever?

Bruh the French Revolution was preceded by absolutely brutal winters that destroyed the capacity to grow food, also causing migrations (which were illegal under customary law) and other stuff unique to the feudal mode of production fucked with population. China faced massive famines and had ridiculously low life expectancy in urban areas which was only overcome with the overcoming of capitalism. That post was correct, when Marx said the old mode of production becomes a limit on development, this includes human development in all of its aspects

I've been thinking about this for a few days and I honestly can't agree with this sentiment.

Think about it. We have until 2030 to transform the economy in order to completely stop CO2 emissions into the atmosphere before the effects of climate change really start to ramp up. That's TEN FUCKING YEARS. Are you telling me that we really can't start a mass movement, and eventually a revolution, in this time? If the entirety of WWI happened in just 4 years and the Russian Revolution in 5, why can't we change the economy in 10 years?

I think people here really overestimate our defeat, because most of you probably don't interact with normies much irl, the normies really aren't as brainwashed as you might think they are, they are just oblivious to the level of crisis we are up against because the economy seems relatively stable to them right now, but we've got another depression coming up in about a year or two, it's going to disenfranchise a lot of people and that'll be a perfect opportunity to redpill a lot of them, and that might give us a chance to do something before it's over.

And if not, then what is the alternative? Wallowing in your misery for the next 10 years till we all die? Fascism? Is that it? Might as well just kill yourself right now and be done with it, but you'll be seriously missing out on a lot.

So I say:

If a lot of us do this then we might have a chance to overthrow capitalism, otherwise it's extinction for us.

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Thank you, comrade, I’m sick of doomed shit, I spent a year contemplating suicide, I’ve decided to see it through till the end. Where will despair get me? Nowhere.

An early grave would let one avoid a lot of pain.

Excellent post. The world can be depressing, but it's been depressing for most of modern human existence. Think Russia wasn't almost post-apocalyptic during the 1916's to the 20's?
One way to look at the coming times is through a depressive lens - another way is to look at the coming times as exciting times of political opportunity. Actual ideological pluralism is returning after three decades of neoliberalist ideological hegemony.

Even when I manage to convince a normie we got 10 years left until shit is fucked they still believe a science man will swoop in and take all the carbon out of the air with some fantastic invention just in time and they don't have to worry.
Decades of superhero movies turned their brain to mush, I'm expecting them to rise up only after the effects will get really bad.
I don't think we're gonna go extinct but we will have to build socialism in a significantly harsher environment so I'm preparing for that.

Honestly we should prepare for a new Dark Age, the socialist project needs to contend with the fact that we may be reduced to a civilization comparable to that of the 17 or 1800s (just as Rome’s collapse reduced Europe to barbarism, tribalism, and eventually feudalism).

The knowledge of what we’ve done and what we are should be kept alive in the preparation for a new Renaissance and new Modern Age that exceeds ours. Communists practically have to be the monks that hold onto knowledge and literacy and teach proceeding generations the lessons of our collapse.

Maybe just implement market socialism next time.

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Am I the only one who thinks of classic Fallout's brotherhood of steel, but communist?

Haha honestly that wouldn’t be a bad thing, I had been thinking more along the lines of the monks from A Canticle for Leibowitz

Can't lose either way.

I mean, I fucking wish but porky can't see further than his nose.

States and governments will ultimately try saving themselves even if porky doesn’t give a shit

along with the fact that, by the time circumstances would push porky to act, the means to accomplish such massive projects would already be exhausted

Thank you for bringing up bullshit jobs. I got caught in the defeat loop, but we still have to war communism our way into a sustainable system whilst we have the energy to do it.

Anons, are there any Marxist eocnomists that have been able to put numbers to the table? Did econophysics by Cockshott really chew into a model of not having mass death?

This. Also, there's no hard set line after which nothing is worth doing. Every year of course we ensure our lives will be harder but this does not excuse us of fighting.

Moreover, we now have some huge political advantages. Even as the obvious alternative is not uttered out loud in the bourgeois media, everyone now knows that actual systematic change is necessary. Even the fucking IPCC admits as much. We are the only ones who have a concrete vision of what that systematic change will be. We also are the only ones who are speaking of these issues everyone is worried about with due gravity.

So, in addition to what the user suggests here, you must join a Socialist party. We must push the issue of human survival to the core and forefront of the Socialist movement. We know, as a rapidly increasing amount of people do, that capitalism is not compatible with the survival and progress of post industrial civilization. The main problem now is low level of organization on our part, and this is not the doing of the cunning porky, nor is it the result of a brainwashed proletariat. It's the result of Socialists lying around home, doing nothing but posting and whining. For fucking real, some of you doomers need to get your shit together or find another board to spread your defeatism (#NotAll).

I'd also say that our message should emphasize concrete economic and political goals: publicly controlled nuclear power, radical democracy (whatever form it takes in practical terms), public program for climate change adaptation, public investment in geo-engineering, Nuremberg trials for oil industrialists etc. Concrete goals like this are more easily accessible, and they help people imagine what another world will look like in practical, day to day terms.

Most of all, we must stop being afraid of the red scare stigma. Many anons on this board have misguidedly looked to Alt-Right tactics for inspiration. This is a mistake. But what the neo-fascist movement does show is that the stigma only works as long as you let it work.

Pictured: Uneducated peasant workers with more reactionary baggage than anyone you'll ever know, who none the less stepped up and did their bit in the fight against capital.

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This. Basically climate collapse illustrates the necessity of hope, commie doomerism was almost understandable in the 90s and 00s but by now it's time to take action, and I'd suggest going to green protests too, and starting radicalising people by telling them green capitalism is a fucking sham.

markets are the problem you dumb faggot
markets are why nobody is doing anything now

I think the Earth Strike this September might be a good time to radicalize more people. Anyone got some news on that?

Exactly. Though hope is not the correct term, but resolve. I do indeed have hope, but resolve - as in commitment to action and upholding certain convictions till the very end - is far more important. I also second going to green protests. If you can go as a part of an organized socialist group, all the better (again: join a party). The current crisis demonstrates in practice what we've been saying for near two centuries: capitalism can't answer to human need. Millions of people are looking at the current situation in horror and asking "why aren't the leaders of the world doing anything?" We have the answer ofcourse, but we lack organization and muscle. We can push those protests Left and draw in especially young people. With working people we must also talk in these terms. The bosses know what's happening, and they aren't going to do anything about it. They're gonna hole up in their fortresses and leave you and your family to rot.

I'm not in a union but I guess I'll just call sick on the day, but any communist org should use climate change as a wedge, it's the predominant angst in Europe right now and you can see it in all the fascists wearing their Tedpill and Linkolla madks now the refugee spook machine stopped working that much.
And there are these extinction rebellion marches school strike stuff all over Europe (mostly UK) so any zoomers feel free to mingle with the kiddies and turn them gommie.

Necessity of hope is to me like an optimistic version of back against the wall. Cappies are running out of road, time to take the wheel. No panic allowed and so on.

Can't wait till right wingers instead of accusing us of wanting to be bureaucrats, accuse us of wanting to be monks.

China and India have invested in this and have ambitious nuclear power plans.
Well the capitalist west isn't going to be that influential at that point in time. Consider that China has just barely enough domestic food production now, meaning they have geo-political pressures to developed better food production, to avoid being vulnerable to extortion, and they have lots of state programs to help with that, they are pushing salinity tolerance of rice to be able to grow food with brackish water, and have invented some water retention paste and combined with sticking sticks or straw as wind-protection in the sand they can quickly and cheaply reclaim deserts for farming land. And there always is the possibility to greatly expand seaweed farming.

The world still cam be saved, however that does take massive state directed economy.

This shit right here is why I tell anti-Chinese leftists to fuck off, no matter what climate change is the most important challenge in our future and only one country is pulling out all the stops to do shit beyond strengthening military to murder refugees.

Die working towards revolution or live as a coward, it's that simple.

The fuck will it take for Americans to rise up and gut these fuckers?


This but unironically.

I wasn’t being ironic

Like that Isaac Asimov book, the Foundation.

See you on the other side.

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I'm a historical determinist.

I think it's stupid to project moral failures onto men and act as if whatever we're going through is an "evil path where the cart has left the neat rails and the human species is a collective failure". I believe this is the only path through history and we have to make do with what we got.
We have the internet. Think of what Marx or Lenin would think of the existence of that tool.
Everything is lining up for a massive market crash and I believe a major social crisis is going to happen soon. First a financial crisis that will devolve into a catastrophic failure of the banking system. ATMs no longer working, the infrastructure of the entire payment system, the very servers that act as their backbone, gone.
The social chaos ensuing is guaranteed to be of historical proportions and we need to be ready for this scenario.
It really never is darker than right before dawn.

No it isn't, it's global chaos for a while and shitloads of people die, but not extinction. Things will be shittier if we don't act well enough soon enough but that doesn't leave zero opportunity for the future if that fails.

looks like game over

sooner or later, for one reason or many, the world will burn. the most we can is roast some marshmallows on it.

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I've been watching this video for the past hour or so. I love this shit. I remember when my love for doom started, way back in the mid 2000's I was spending a lot of time on conspiracy theory boards. All the time they would be panicked about the next doom. Was it an asteroid? Economic collapse? WW3? etc. I would go out and tell people hey did you hear we are all going to die because X? They would respond 'user you are crazy, X will never happen.'
I see people who are working really hard to have a career or raise a family or whatever goals they have and work towards. I just have to laugh at the irony that all that effort is for nothing and they will just die, and their kids will die and their careers wont mean shit, and their bank accounts wont mean shit. This world that they built is a fucking shitshow and I for one always knew it would come to this. It's just great to have the facts laid out so clearly. Doom is inevitable. Reap what you sow. Build a shitty world, get a shitty outcome.
I just hope the oligarchs at the top haven't figured out some loophole to save their asses from the fire. They have to burn with the rest of us. They just have to.

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Just remember, when they’re finally forced to understand the futures they aspired to will never come, change will finally be possible

That goes for the Dengists too

Honestly I do believe Xi when he says China is working towards socialism, I think he realizes that the only way for China to survive the future that’s coming and protect its own people is to embrace socialism, ya know? If the capitalist nexus point, America, is doomed due to its stubborn adherence to capitalist imperialism, I think China will do what it takes to actually survive.