Take The Hope-Pill, You Blithering Idiots

But why would anyone say this? It's not actually a realistic scenario, as far as any Marxist could observe. In fact, an entirely worse and much bleaker future than now could be bred from some kind of survivalist fascism, or in fact any kind of developments in the capitalist world system from our current material conditions. The point is that no one actually knows what the future will hold. Thus, we should strategize on the basis of effective politics rather than a vague principle of glorious martyrdom.

Not all action is good or effective in producing the desired outcome, regardless of motive. What you're quite transparently doing is attempting to bait out the more naive posters to LARP direct action. Why?

They're not necessarily different things. I mean I'm not saying go postal, but basically you're fucked. So fuck up the thing that's fucking you… in a practical, organized way because that's the only way to do it. But you're fucked so you have nothing to lose, go all the way in. Not full retard, just balls deep.

Because actually I'm not. Although, I mean, even that's better than no action. Just not necessarily from this particular standpoint.

OP is right. Though as I said in another thread, resolve is a better word for those who can't bring themselves to hope (and ultimately more important). The crucial thing is to organize IRL. We are the only ones with answers. Our problems are twofold: relatively bareable living standards the 1st world proletariat still enjoys and a dismal leel of organization on our part. The first factor will change, the second factor is up to us. We must put the existential death struggle we're engaged in front and center. The material reality will back up our words. I believe we have as good a chance of winning as ever, provided we organize. Defeatists will be the first to get the gulag

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Stalin could do all the stuff he did because he was alive in a time before the surveillance state, before the police state, before the complete ideological hegemony of imperialist capitalism-industrialism. If he were alive today what would he do? He'd probably be just as overwhelmed with hopelessness and pessimism as everyone else

I am going to ride out of this chaos and carve out a future for humanity, at any and all costs.

OPTIMISTIC ECO-STALINISM NOW!

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Considering this thread, this should be mandatory reading. I've posted it elsewhere before but here it is again.
>revleft.space/vb/threads/195216-What-should-I-be-doing/page2

We are getting mood-trolled, basically a wave of posting doom and gloom, anti-technology, …

You noticed the defeatism shilling too?
Shilling like this is one of the reasons i become optimistic despite being a pessimist 90% of the time. I am extremely depressed IRL, but when i notice waves of defeatism like this, i act optimistic in an attempt to balance it out. I'm glad someone noticed.

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Whenever a little worm thinks they can whine about how there won't be a beatiful red flag flying over Washington D.C. I just think about taking them by the collar and telling them to shut the fuck up. Tens of millions will spill blood in the class struggle with or without communists, class politics will continue, and it will not end until communism. There will always be people who will be lucky enough to be under the steel-toed boot sipping Canada Dry while on their laptops posting memes, and there will be others who slave away in sweatshops and dream of even the most basic ounce of dignity.

More like bagging groceries in an air-conditioned store.

Sort of the point, kidfucker. The fact of the matter is that even that work is becoming scarce and stressful in America. But I wouldn't expect someone with a flag like yours to know what being productive for a living is like.

Meant to reply to this one

Literally just look up job offerings in your town/city, or even anywhere near. If that's not enough for your greedy ass then you can also look up gigs on Craigslist or start couponing/gardening/whatever. The economy has its cycles but it always recovers, even though commies like you always say "This is it!" expecting it to fall, even though it never does. In times of a recession you can always find a job if you look hard enough.

Where do you live? Where i live, people are always hiring, but they never hire unless you're family.

Yeah buddy, 'gardening' will pay the rent and the car that I have because the city doesn't invest in public transit unless it's in gentrified downtown. I'm not talking about cycles. It's just economic development.

I'm not a defeatist. I just don't think communism will happen in our lifetime. Unless capitalism goes through an extreme crisis or climate change disrupts the order of the world.

Gardening will lower your costs, as would a bike tbh. Poor people would be rich if they didn't buy so much expensive shit and just saved up instead. Even if you save $10 a day on food you save over $3,600 a year, at no detriment to yourself.

I hate this phrase so much. Such an easy cop out to avoid having to organize.
If it wont happen in our lifetime, then it wont happen.

What organizations are you part of user?

defeatist denial gang

victim blaming, poverty is caused by rich people stealing surplus from society
and obviously you cannot blame people for their purchasing choices, marketing is psychologically attacking the minds of people and are suppressing their ability for rational behaviour. You wound't blame murder victims for not being bulletproof either.

Poverty is something that is done to people, the only people that deny this fact are people that either benefit from it, are hoping to benefit from it, or are brainwashed by ideology.

Even at like $15/hr rent+cheap car+insurance will take up almost the entirety of a paycheck. Gardening is a past time, not a legit source of food for a family that possibly lives in an apartment. You sound like someone who has a rich parent and you think they 100% earned that wealth because they are literally worth 50 other lives.

I really meant to say monthly income instead of paychecks.

We could kill this system in one fucking day, stop it.

Local chapter of nazbol Posadist.

I wouldn't say they're quite "victims" but "acquiescent partners". It's true that workers only work part of the day to sustain themselves, but the other part is to sustain and develop the economy. The boss uses part of the value generated by workers to account for stocks, which incentivize other people to commit trade with the firm and produce growth, which ends up accounting for the economy as a whole, which in turn ends up allowing the workers to live increasingly comfy lives (better refrigerators, cars, computers, network speeds, etc.) People work part of the day directly for themselves and the other for themselves as well, though indirectly.

Humans (or at least some of them) have free will to resist outside forces and make their own way. Nobody is forcing you to buy Pepsi, or wear Hollister. You as a sentient being are responsible for your own choices and to decide on your environment accordingly to your will. Seeing an advertisement for Walmart is not equivalent to having a gun put up to your head.

It's true that people are born into poverty, but it is again up to them to decide to get out of it. They have the Internet, social programs, vast arrays of knowledge at their disposal – if they can't make use of it, then it rather makes the case against them as life which is able to respond to its environment properly (by definition even threatening its labeling of "life" to begin with).

My parents were lower-middle class who frequently reminded me to stay within the budget when we went to the grocery store. Even before I moved out from them I started growing oregano in the lanai, which saved me a couple dollars a month at least. It wasn't the deciding factor, sure, but it certainly helped me save up to get the more important things in life that could be bought, like a house or my bicycle.

Humans (or at least some of them) have free will to resist outside forces and make their own way.
*sniff*

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A communist party.

Get anything accomplished yet?

People like you should be shot

Yea, well people like you deserve to remain as you are – in your own misery sustained by your own lack of efforts and consciousness, all the while people like me get ahead in life and even come to lord over you.

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You’d never get anywhere without daddy’s money, shitbag

Ancaps are less than human, they just deserve a hole in the dirt

My father died when I was six, and I never got any inheritance.
As for holes in the dirt, I already get plenty at my current job at a real estate firm where we break in ground for renovation projects all the time (but you commies think we just sit back and collect profits all day).

Ancaps are our best allies. Without the state the revolution would happen faster than you can count to five. We should applaud their deluded efforts.

I wouldn't care if you worked roughneck on a rig for fun and fed starving children on sundays for a hobby. You could be the most hard working philantrope in history of mankind. You'd still be a parasite and the system you defend would still be a tumor.

What do you mean by "breaking in ground"? Flogging contracts for companies to rip people off and throw peanuts at manual labourers? Economics is not zero-sum but everything that you do is at the cost of someone else's livelihood and sometimes their survival too. Bourgeois economists model this as a form of social opportunity cost. You have to do this in order to continue pursuing your goals in capitalism given that it is the political of exclusive interests at war with one another, with horrific attrition resulting in the giant fumbling arms race. We seek to eliminate this arms race as much as possible and call for the advancement of all at an ever-faster set of rates (and it doesn't even have to be equalised in the strictest terms for all people).>>2922116

Still, it's great to know that some people want to completely derail the fucking thread, which was.not made to counter their concerns, but to crush the hopelessness that has afflicted many Communists in our time. I am looking squarely in the direction of the ancap poster.

Well most of the gloom here is Zig Forums-like attempts at trolling anyway, you can notice the narrowness of the themes and all the collapse cult ecofash thingies, guess fascists finally began to understand their house of cards is collapsing and they lash out.

There are no parasites in the voluntary relations of capitalism. It's 2019 C.E, not B.C. There is no slavery, only the information-based economy virtually anyone can get ahead in. The capitalists suit the workers with jobs who they manage under the vision of the firm, whose growth and output tends to benefit the economy. If it was really this black-and-white you would think people would have risen up long ago, like they did against actual unjust systems. Notice that communists only overthrow shitty kings and warlords – never ever a proper capitalist power.

Competition is most easily employed under capitalism, where it is inherent to the system. I'm not denying that incentives are impossible under socialism but it would be difficult and out-of-the-way to implement them, as was the case in… just about all of them. Even Michael Parenti, one of yours, agrees that a big factor to the collapse of socialist nations was their lack of incentives. And even then, socialist nations had their markets, and quotas, and all such – it was an attempt at replacing capitalism but failed, thus reifying the notion that the system may be flawed, though nothing better can top it.

You got me m8. Since we don't have a communist world, we shouldn't organize towards a communist world.

The funny thing is you may actually believe that stuff, Americans really test the limits of Poe's law.

lel

i already spend less than 10 dollars a day on food and cant make ends meet. You're a delusional moron. the fact that you think anyone who is poor spends more than 10 dollars a day on food makes me suspect that you're a teenager from a secure background who doesn't manage is own expenses yet.

Beans and rice are your friend, not avocado toast :^)
If you wanted to be rich you'd actively be looking for ways to cut back on costs. Go to whole-sale stores like Sam's Club, use coupons, look through the newspapers they have in the front for weekly deals, etc. You gain nothing by working hard, but you will if you work smart. Just because you suffer it doesn't mean that there is an injustice to the fact that you receive little.

As someone in an actual trade, go fuck yourself.

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Your trade is trading Pokémon cards

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My trade was machining and now aircraft maintenance you faggot

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You're complaining about the necessity for menial jobs but the funny thing is is that this doesn't prevent you from getting ahead whatsoever. What's wrong with having blue-collar workers? Maybe if they got a brain they could figure out how to get to the top. Need I remind you that the boss needs you as much as you need him? Do a good job, build up your record, establish your contacts, and let your management know that. Tall people get more promotions because they have more confidence, but nothing would preclude you as a short person from having some confidence anyway. Nobody is probably disenfranchising you or discriminating against you, because you likely live in a developed (capitalist) nation that strives to provide people the opportunity they need to prove themselves. If you're not willing to separate yourself from the chaff, you shouldn't complain you get treated as such.

Is that you MarkAngelComedy?

Nothing, and I never such.
Fuck off.
Only one requires the other, and its not the proles needing the boss.
Kys boomer

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*Nothing, and I never said such.

This is your only good post you've ever made. Thank you for this and well done.

Marxism is irrelevant. He exaggerated the contradictions of capitalism to make up for his insecurity for his shitty jobs. Real communism has never been tried and it never may be because the system is inherently corrupt. Capitalism will bring us post-scarcity and the workers will continue to be subservient to their bosses but won't actually rise up because they know deep down they deserve it. Socialism will never happen and honestly we have a much higher chance of the ruling class just wiping out the workers before we even get a socialist state that doesn't eat itself in a generation.

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Well said, comrade. The future belongs to us!

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Wait no wtf, I meant OP.

This post is homo and gay but at least you read something of Marx
Fixed that for you.

Literally all you have is saying “nuh-huh” and saying how, if the poor just eat dog food and murder each other for wage slaving, they at least won’t die in the street like dogs. People like you should be fucking flayed tbh, I say this with the harshest of words, ancaps are dogshit people down to their souls, to call them human is an insult to humanity. To the fuckin wall to take the fuckin bullet.

In what way
Real Socialism has been tried you faggot, and it worked exceptionally well for its conditions.
Literally religious thinking
Already did, and the people who experienced it wish for it back.

More like lasting 70 years, half of which were in utter misery

Only like half, and that's for certain aspects like guaranteed employment (good employment can happen under capitalism either way, just without your government "accidentally" starving you to death)

If wars from foreign nations cause bad living standards.
That's a rather large number. Are larger majority in fact rt.com/russia/340158-most-russians-regret-ussr-has/
Like where? Show me a capitalist nation that reaches that low amount of unemployment.

35 years of misery under Socialist industrial revolution
Over 100 years of misery during the capitalist industrial revolution in Britain
lmao

ONE HUNDRED YEARS OF INCINERATING FOUR YEAR OLD CHILDREN UNDER CAPITALISM

Thank Jesus it stopped at that

It's like Stalin said, "We gotta incinerate the amount of children the capitalists have in 100 years, in 25 years". Capitalism is for economic growth, socialism is for killing people and failing anyways (like Fascism lmao)

Mother fucker I know people who actively starve themselves by not having breakfast and buy the cheapest shit possible, who work 60 hours a week or MORE, excluding free-lance work and are constantly budgeting every little thing. They are 10,000 dollars in debt because they were accused of preparing to commit a crime (without any evidence) and had to spend their life savings on a lawyer, psychologist interviews and other things to prove themselves innocent of a crime they hadn't done. Meanwhile we get rich fags like Jake Paul violating the law in both commercial and criminal areas, but because they're big on Youtube and are new-money fucks, they get off practically scott free because they can throw around money to buy shit like Lambos.

Or how about a different example. Tell me, does a veteran who fought for his country and was honorably discharged deserve to be poor? Or to get a salary that isn't worth shit? Not to mention possibly not receiving benefits because the system prefers giving corporations the easy hand instead. I know military people and they are quite fucking frugal, yet the President receives a pension larger than a yearly salary of an active soldier or officer. The same goes for Senators or corporate CEOs. Yet they don't do more work than anyone else, hell they usually just shove their work off onto subordinate Secretaries and Salarymen, but get all the money and credit for the work anyway. Fucking brilliant.

See pic 1 related

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Think of it this way. Most people (proletariat) have a hot-air balloon with a little gas and they can only get more gas by working hard, but they either lose/use more than they can get or barely keep it equal, because they don't have enough gas to rise high enough to the next level where they can earn more gas for the same amount of work and thus be able to prosper.
Meanwhile the middle-class (about 10% of people) Have a small propellor driven dirigible, with some gas. They have the ability, depending on how they act to be able to move a little higher and get more gas and thus prosper. It takes work but it can happen fairly easily, unlike for the poor.
The next level is the rich. They have fucking private jets with VTOL and can move and do whatever the fuck they want since they have all the gas they need and get their income almost entirely from the work done by the poor and to an extent the middle class.

Do you understand or is the analogy too problematic?

tl;dr
Use less words next time retard, an educated person can say what you just did in 1/10th of the space.

Which was 3 generations of people.
So you claim, yet the decadence only began in 1987 with Gorbachev's market reforms
And the life in the 1920s was a rocky beginning caused by Civil War and Foreign Intervention. The 1930s were actually fairly decent for the time, marred only by the famine of 1932 (which affected most of Europe, and parts of Asia that weren't part of the USSR or socialist in any way) and in the late 30s when industrial sabotage and foreign spies made things problematic. The 1940s were spent recovering from WW-2, however the USSR was able to stop using Ration cards before Britain and the rest of Europe, and in terms of living standards was barely behind the West. From 1950-1985 life was pretty swell in the USSR.

After WW-1, a foreign backed civil war and then WW-2 (along side petty sabotage and economic western sanctions) the USSR had received more than its own share of devastation. 20+ million deaths in WW-2, at least 10 million during WW-1 and the civil war. Over 1/5 of its land (a land-mass equal to 1/2 of the entire USA) was burnt to the ground, Millions of buildings, thousands of villages and hundreds of towns, ERASED, along with a large portion of industrial factories and other means of production. Moreover the areas affected made up a large portion of the arable land of the USSR. Despite these severe set-backs the USSR rose up and competed with the USA in almost every aspect despite the USA being nearly untouched by war and gaining massively in terms of economics during them.

In 1990 (A terrible year BTW), the Soviet Union had a Human Development Index of 0.920, placing it in the "high" category of human development. It was the third-highest in the Eastern Bloc, behind Czechoslovakia and East Germany, and the 25th in the world of 130 countries. The highest in the world was Japan. SO even in its dying days the USSR was comparable to the West in living standards… quite interesting given your claim.
You gonna tell me about how people who lived under it hated it next?
- gowans.blog/2011/12/20/we-lived-better-then/
- counterpunch.org/2014/10/24/freest-under-czech-communism/
- web.archive.org/web/20130722044443/http://www.thewashingtonreview.org/articles/central-asia-in-nostalgia-for-the-soviet-period.html
- prolecenter.wordpress.com/2013/11/09/oppressive-and-grey-no-growing-up-under-communism-was-the-happiest-time-of-my-life-2/
Yeah like in South Korea or Japan… which imitated the economic 5 year plans of the USSR…

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I used that much because whenever we give you short straight answers rightwingers love to hook onto how people are "over-simplifying" it. Pick your poison: short and simple or long and drawn out.

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The less words, the more easily twisted by dishonest cretin like you.

Children in the Soviet Union, from the very beginning, spent their days in school. Family farms, as everywhere, were probably exceptions, but this was the law and it was enforced. There were bureaucratic hoops to jump through to get permission for an exception.
One hundred years into the British Industrial Revolution, an Act of parliament was passed to reform working conditions for children, the Factory Act. Children, not adults.

These are its provisions:
- no child workers under nine years of age
- employers must have an age certificate for their child workers
- children of 9-13 years to work no more than nine hours a day
- children of 13-18 years to work no more than 12 hours a day
- children are not to work at night
- two hours schooling each day for children
- four factory inspectors appointed to enforce the law

It took decades, much longer than the period of basic Soviet industrialization, before this became the norm in England, not an aspiration. Children were worked two days straight, and more. In the mines, in the mills, in the fields and factories. Now try to imagine what adults had to do.

The first attempt at passing child labour laws in the U.S. was struck down by the Supreme Court. Eventually one was passed in 1938, but left unenforced for years, especially in agricultural work.

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Will the mods do their fucking jobs and ban the Ancap? Even if this is a political discussion board, the mother fucker has derailed this thread.

Fuck that dude, ancaps are animalistic cretins.

I’m sick of arguing with people that don’t deserve to have their fucking tongues.

It was actually more like 15-20 years of high labor hours, and child-labor was never used. Moreover unlike Britain the USSR was in desperate need of industrialization. Moreover Gulag inmates did most of the dangerous work, and considering that 75% were ordinary criminals NOT political ones (as according to the American Historical Review, not me), then they are literally no different to US chain gangs. Hell compared to the Tsars Siberian prisons the Gulags were paradise and this is mirrored in the drastic drop in mortality rates and low sentences (5-10 years maximum).

Also the law was mostly left unenforced and the inspectors were mostly absent and easily bribed.

Look I appreciate your baiting persistence but you really need to get to work and start paying back that debt you worthless bum. All your "opportunities" were bought with the blood of innocent kids, but the US military is too shit and expensive, so it's time to pay up.

Why do you keep answering to such an obvious bait? Why did I answer now?

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An-caps aren't the real threat to Zig Forums, it's the idiots who take bait seriously.

Oh you are just class-cucked then, not even a temporarily embaresed millionaire, making up excuses for stealing surplus from the workers, they build civilisation, it's theirs to own. Capitalists get rich because they take more then they put in. Oh and while were a it go luck up "passive income from capital" is.
Oh the willpower delusion, were you confuse your luck for your personal achievement, where you end up in the money hierarchy is a lottery, it corresponds to a statistical distribution. Obviously advertisement is effective at circumventing the rational thinking of people, so it is responsible for the irrational behaviour. And by the way i compared it with being shot, and it's an apt comparison, asking people to use up their cognitive resources to defend against psychological attacks, is comparable to asking people to wear armour, if they don't want to get shot.
So you are advocating for a revolution then ;)
Give up the personal responsibility & bootstrapping sharade, the game is rigged, the poverty class is a fixed part of the system , they are kept desperate so they can be coerced to wage-slave.
The non-life people ? Well this is just retarded, obviously the environment is wrong. Go jump into a liquid methane pool on Jupiter's moon Titan, then explain to me how you weren't a life-form because you didn't respond to the environment correctly.
You are basically attempting to justify structural violence, which isn't any different from physical violence.

Most of us here have actual jobs besides soliciting and selling child porn.
Yeah, with government help you retard.

Read a history book.

You mean they have to work or starve?
>It's true that workers only work part of the day to sustain themselves, but the other part is to sustain and develop the economy. but the other part is to line the pockets of their masters.
FIFY
workers could do this without a boss.
lmao what, have you seen burgerland lately and its stagggering 46 million impoverished citizens? That's literally 7% of their entire population.
No ones forcing you to buy clothes or food either.
Yeah, and my will is to take back my surplus value that was stolen from me.

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you're*

This is not why I started this fucking thread. I'm ashamed.

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POSITIVITY IS FOR THE WEAK

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I never said "positivity", smoothbrain. I said HOPE. Revolution is always going to be long and bloody and painful, and it may take another century or two just to get our heads back above the water, let alone succeed at our goals.
I don't want you to be "positive". I just want you not GIVE UP, you fucking coward.

If our posts were just incoherent screeching and denial you might be correct, but most of those posts are effortposts, and thus are still valuable, even if the troll ignores them.

This thread is good even if it derailed a bit.

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Thank you based Alunya. Keep up the good fight.

Ill have you know that i'm totally fucking with you.
lol.
but seriously were all fucked, I would be happy to revolt, but not happy if it leads to literally nothing happening either. I don't want to drift back into capitalism is all

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Then I guess you'd better make an effort to do really effective praxis.
We're already here. At least trying would give us a chance at something different.

Just read this in a nytimes piece. Anyone got source?

Listen, I really want to just come out and advocate for real socialism by either running for office or something of that matter. The problem is people keep talking to me about how I shouldn't call workplace democracy, common ownership, or much more direct involvement in democracy as socialism. They basically think still think the whole socialism bad shtick and it pisses me off when they don't just accept the facts as they are when it comes to socialism. I guess you could say that I'm more fed up with my irl peers than actually dismayed at the concept of socialism as a whole.

So your peers are inundated with bourgeois ideology. What else is new. Keep spreading the word, keep studying revolutionary theory, join a party (and make sure it's a decent party) in your area; as capitalism descends further into crisis, people will flock to those who promise a way out, and that's where you come in.

Do I have to take the hope pill? I'm going to contribute my time and labor to building revolution because it's my duty a an ML, not because of some fleeting emotion. I even recognize that my effort will most likely be for nothing, why try to instill me with false hope? If anything I'm more likely to quit once my hope inevitably stinks. But if I accept that even though it may be useless, it's still my duty to do so, I'm far more inclined to stay committed because I didn't convince myself to do 8t on false promises. I accepted reality for what it is.