Breadtuber goes fash

David Allen
David Allen

Do you remember that time when a "breadtuber" who claimed they used to be a fascist but is now an anarchist said that chattel slavery is less oppressive than wage labour? Well they've now come out as a "national anarchist" aka fascist. . .

this is what being an anarkiddie and not reading theory breeds…

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Other urls found in this thread:

old.reddit.com/r/BeardTube/comments/bhj3bj/visionary_oaks_the_philosophy_of_marxistleninism/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_v._Bell
youtube.com/watch?v=XxywbsDZtDs
youtube.com/watch?v=bjBmtkW3Tl8
ssa.gov/OACT/STATS/dibStat.html
youtube.com/watch?v=WXCyDanffrw
zigforums.com/thread/13495513/politics

Luis Wilson
Luis Wilson

another theorilet comes out as [non-Marxist]
imagine my shock

Aaron Phillips
Aaron Phillips

Holdup he believes in materialism and in the spook called race at the same time?

Samuel Butler
Samuel Butler

Looks like the opportunist e-celeb Holodomor has finally arrived. First Batko and now this irrelevant person I've never heard of. Hope they all kill themselves.

Connor Torres
Connor Torres

Oh, I remember this guy saying 5 year olds can theoretically consent to sex in a socialist society.
Cool stuff.

Ryan Wood
Ryan Wood

voluntary
Anyone who pretends this exists and advocates for it needs to be shot.

Nolan Murphy
Nolan Murphy

voluntary association of producers under ethnocentric fascism
This is what happens when shopping in the supermarket of ideologies goes wrong. I mean, look at the dude, he's choosing based on lifestyle.

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Connor Robinson
Connor Robinson

And this is why "former" fash aren't reliable.
I don't know how one really gets into the fashy ideology without being a shitlord from the start. I mean, I know Nazi shit is pushed really hard in modern society and a lot of it just gets absorbed by osmosis, but there's a difference between someone merely absorbing Nazi ideas and repeating them without thought, and someone who actively goes about kicking down poor people and social Others for cheap amusement. I've not met a single person in the latter camp that wasn't just a fucking piece of shit from the outset, and almost never do they really have regret for that behavior (the few times they did, it's because they have lost so much social status that a return to their previous behavior is literally impossible, and even then a good number of fallen people hold on to what they had to their dying breath).

Luke Williams
Luke Williams

So, he went back to fascism in the end? Yeah, his video on fascism sounded incredibly sympathetic to it, so it’s not shocking, and he started as a fash. Shame tho

Chase Powell
Chase Powell

lel

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Nathaniel Morris
Nathaniel Morris

Agreed, fascists are big time douchenozzles.

Jose Lee
Jose Lee

Ex-fash here. He should've read theory
people can never change
Imagine calling yourself a leftist and being this undialectical

Jayden Ramirez
Jayden Ramirez

Being fash is something metaphysical amiright

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Asher Foster
Asher Foster

Darth Vader be like:

Guys you should totally forgive me for everything I’ve done, first off I saved Luke, secondly I realized murdering children, enslaving whole planets, murdering my wife, murdering my comrades, and blowing up a planet killing billions of people; were all evil! Please accept me, if you don’t that’s not very tolerant of you :3

Isaiah Ward
Isaiah Ward

breadtuber
Really obscure one. He has his own subreddit with zero comments and the r/breadtube thread on one of his videos was not very enthusiastic:
old.reddit.com/r/BeardTube/comments/bhj3bj/visionary_oaks_the_philosophy_of_marxistleninism/
someone who actively goes about kicking down poor people and social Others for cheap amusement
Going by that definition, TV and blue-checkmark twitter is full of fashies, but I'd rather classify them as neoliberal.

Nathaniel Thomas
Nathaniel Thomas

Why the fuck you believe in forgiveness, lib?

Just because a lot of the board here were former fash, doesn’t mean all fash shouldn’t be shot with impunity

Nathan Peterson
Nathan Peterson

being literally Hitler is the same thing as being a retard who fell for reactionary propaganda
Nice strawman

Ryan Lee
Ryan Lee

More like a Storm trooper who never saw action and sat on his ass on a imperial owned backwater planet as some administrator realized who the fuck he working for and why it was bad after he read some Rebel propaganda. Ya know like Finn.

Samuel Collins
Samuel Collins

Yea but Finn didn’t get the British white gussy in the end, did he?

Christopher Thompson
Christopher Thompson

Forgiveness is a spook, I think it's quite idealistic to expect people can't change.
Don't doubt me that I would love to lynch some fash

Luis Martin
Luis Martin

I don’t know man, straight up murdering the Emperor goes a way in his favor. It is a strawman comparison.

James Hall
James Hall

Not all assholes are fascists, but all fascists are assholes. Literal fascists are a vanishingly small minority and the type that attract to actual NutSac movements are uniformly a type of degenerate that is painfully predictable.

I never said change is impossible, but I have never truly observed it, and if someone was attracted in the first place to kicking down the poors, it says some things about their character and thought process that are unlikely to ever change so long as it is materially possible to continue. The thought process of someone who wants to kick down the weak for fun and amusement is self-perpetuating and self-justifying, and if you do not see that, you're retarded.

Cooper Reyes
Cooper Reyes

You're the Liberal, ofc all counter-revolutionaries will be fought and killed, but it has absolutely nothing to do with any of the Moralism you're spouting as if being a Fascist is some kind of Mind Disease that exists outside of Material Reality. Your position is anti-materialist; a Working Class or more commonly Lumpen individual who found themselves swayed by Fascist ideology can very well evolve beyond it, a Petit-Bourgeois individual less so, if you apply the simplest amount of Class Analysis for obvious reasons. The conditions themselves are prerequisites for the likelihood of outcomes and so assigning some kind of moral value to the unfolding of things on an Individual or Social level is retarded. We kill Fascists because they are our enemy, not because they are evil. They are evil, but it's besides the point, the inherent antagonism exists outside of it.

Connor Sanders
Connor Sanders

Who? Seems like an attention starved child.

Henry Wilson
Henry Wilson

You’re a liberal counter-revolutionary because you don’t reach out to fascist dogs

Unironically kys

Adam Ramirez
Adam Ramirez

non-authoritarian national ethnocentrism mixed with communism

I am *irrationally* angry. Like genuinely rage-drunk.

Luke Russell
Luke Russell

Where did I say that retard? I never called you a counter-revolutionary, I said your attitude was Liberal because you were turning things into Moralism. You neck yourself you strawmanning cuck. Take off that flag you fucking faggot, acting like an unmarxist little bitch. I don't give a shit about "reaching out to Fascists"

Kevin Stewart
Kevin Stewart

It's not moralism to call fash the faggots that they are as a necessary condition for believing in and acting out the ideology and practice of fascism at its basic level. You don't do that shit while being an otherwise decent person, and it's not as if there is some force compelling people to join NutSacs or Proud Boys or other such groups because mainstream Americans consider them all to be faggots and jokes and see them as the degenerates that they are.

If those people are willing to stop being faggots, great, but I'm not going to pretend that there's a nice person inside every fash. That's retarded and crippling to pretend that your enemy isn't really your enemy. You fucking crush and kill your enemies, you don't secretly believe they can be friends because you are scared of your own convictions. God damn.

Noah Sanchez
Noah Sanchez

I guess than then ML will be a sect of 10 people, right? Because neither fashes or SJW's are our friends, and since they're our enemies and we have to crush them… Sounds pretty smart.

But no, it's fucking retarded. Nobody begins his political life as a marxist, not even here on this board. People usually begins with childish and simplistic options, such as "white people is devil/jews control the world" etc… Our work is to promote class consciousnesses to all of these people. The only ones who we can't convert are the ones who own the means of production: they probably already have consciousness of their class and they're our only enemy.

Nolan White
Nolan White

non-authoritarian ethnocentrism and market abolitionism
When you sort of understand that capitalism is bad but still want to keep your favorite spooks

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Dylan Peterson
Dylan Peterson

People who do the shit fascists do are your enemies, and if you don't kill them, they kill you, as they have done repeatedly throughout history up to the present day.
You'd seriously expect me to cripple myself by believing that people who want to kill me, who have taken proactive steps to violently suppress me and who have killed millions of people like me, who fully subscribe to such ideologies and have acted on them with conviction, aren't actually doing what they're doing? You want me to play tricks on myself so I don't defend myself and engage in a moral cowardice. I know how this trick works, because I used to believe in this sort of thing, and it has done me exactly no favors once ever in my life. My enemy is my enemy.

I mean, Jesus, you actually believe poor people don't understand their class position and just need moar consciousness bruh. Seriously? Fash know damn well where they are in society, they know they're scum, they just don't care. They're perfectly conscious of what they're doing. So are a good number of the apathetic normies you think need to be washed with some brand spanking new ideology. We all know the system is shit. It's incumbent on you as a socialist to offer a credible alternative, and no "it'll be settled after the revolution, trust us guiz!" is not a credible answer and if you say that as a general program, you'll be laughed out of power. That's why the actually competent and successful socialists aren't ultra-retarded about ideology and know how to build a platform and actually, you know, do shit. It's shit easy to say some shit and sound Marx-y enough, but you could just as well be a joke like Bordiga.

Daniel Gray
Daniel Gray

Based and redpilled. He should come to /fascist/index.html

Carter Torres
Carter Torres

So, what the fuck does all of this mean?
How do we even offer people an alternative if they're first brainwashed by ideology? Try to talk with a right-wing person about socializing some service, without even mentioning the word communism or marxism. They are really well-trained, they will cry out "that's communism! it killed 40 gorillion of people! they're taking our freedom!". Try to talk with a SJW normie about how right-wing populism it's an emergent phenomena of late capitalism and neoliberalism, how class tensions are being fakely alleviated through identifying an enemy like the immigrants or whatever. They will rapidly dismiss you, more if you're white. They don't believe that neoliberalism is the cause. Instead, it's white people who are intrinsically evil and racist.

You can't even propose an alternative to these people because their brainwashed ideology will not even allow them to hear you. Everybody knows the system is shit, yet they fail to understand why and they constantly blame it on spooks, hence the different forms of IdPol.

Andrew Rogers
Andrew Rogers

Anarchists

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Eli Carter
Eli Carter

fascism is an upgrade from this honestly

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Blake Young
Blake Young

This guy's a fucking loon. Also the material conditions always comes before any prose/idealism - middle class kids will almost always turn fascist when push comes to shove.

Lincoln Campbell
Lincoln Campbell

The punching down is the reason I left the ideology. Capitalism as system promotes punching down as a way to disable organizing potential of the working class

Eli Torres
Eli Torres

I don't think there's a whole lot of brainwashing, the fash who are in it to kick down some poors and browns for shits and giggles didn't need an ideology to tell them to do that. They're just following their nature. In my observations of human behavior, not just of fascists but with anyone, those people with pathological bully-coward tendencies are not the least bit conflicted about their behavior, it's just something that comes more or less naturally to them in any possible social system, and because the behavior is self-reinforcing, those who practice such behaviors are unlikely to listen to any reason or plea to stop, even when it is in their clear material interests to do so. Such practices don't respond to logic or long-term reason. It's pure instinct.

The reason why your proposals fail is because, maybe, the immortal science of communism isn't as obvious as you think it is, and people have very good reasons to be skeptical. Like I said, if you want to tell people that communism is the way, it's incumbent on you to be able to describe what a socialist system would possibly look like in practice, and the answers I usually receive to that question are often really, really shoddy and show that people really have no idea what they're doing, and they're just planning to wing it once the time comes. I'd be skeptical if I didn't take the time to read deeper into this stuff and into how the system we have now formed. I still am skeptical about just how competent a lot of socialists would be in a revolutionary situation, and whether the whole thing won't just get coup'd and turned into something else.

Adrian Howard
Adrian Howard

Well, I'm glad you saw it that way.

Levi Evans
Levi Evans

Shit myself sleeping now the bed sheets are brown
Vindication

Aiden Jackson
Aiden Jackson

Thanks comrade. Also I didn't consider myself fash but I was pretty nationalistic so I guess it's the same. I was spooked on Marx and Communism until I actually read some books.
It seems that this breadtuber never fully despooked himself which is why he collapsed back into ideology

Parker Hernandez
Parker Hernandez

They're just following their nature.
comes more or less naturally to them in any possible social system
It's pure instinct.
Damn

Owen White
Owen White

prolapsed anus emoji

Andrew Richardson
Andrew Richardson

excellent post

you are a fucking retard my man

Anthony Nguyen
Anthony Nguyen

Unless you can someone alter the calculus where immediate and repeated violence against an easy target is a social strategy that comes easily, you can't disprove me, retard. No one has ever, in their life, just decided to stop doing that of their own free will. Only the sobering influences of reality and the obvious implications of such an practice taken to its logical end would stop people, and obviously most people don't really question the principles of Social Darwinism despite knowing full well its long-term implication, even when they know that implication would be directly hostile towards themselves. They literally can't help themselves, the instinct to kick down is so deeply ingrained that they keep running to the next excuse to do it in a somehow more justified way. That's the sad state of humanity, that most of them will only ever respond to violence because they don't believe in actually learning or trying to understand anything.

Jaxon Mitchell
Jaxon Mitchell

They literally can't help themselves, the instinct to kick down is so deeply ingrained that they keep running to the next excuse to do it in a somehow more justified way. That's the sad state of humanity, that most of them will only ever respond to violence because they don't believe in actually learning or trying to understand anything.
I do think theres somewhat of an underestimation of the importance of information and education. In theory i think almost all people we would classify as 'fascists' could be converted, same with liberals. But only in theory.
As a Marxist i often find it hard to break through to people because you can't just 'debunk' this or that thing, it's all attached to the whole belief system, and you need to knock entire structures down to even make a dent into peoples thinking. The normies are taught a way of reasoning, categories, priorities, in large part revisionist history, all that as a firewall against the pressure of eternally emerging class consciousness. The only thing that protects people against fascist ideology are some factoids, and the official morals that liberal society seems to uphold. Basically you need to introduce people to entirely new ways of thinking before they can really understand Marxism.

Mason Walker
Mason Walker

Seriously, I only even became a communist because I was already predisposed to question the overall narrative of society anyway; most people aren’t like that.

Ethan Cook
Ethan Cook

I don't think this kind of thinking is exclusive to fascism, or that fascism can be definitionally defined as simply this tendency to kick down the weak (which is usually how people think, because they've been stripped of any understanding of what fascism really is in the first place; even the fascists themselves don't really know what they're saying, just look at Tarrant who thought that the PRC was an eco-friendly ethnostate and an ally.
I don't believe Marxism is immune to this tendency either, and it would remain a simple reality in socialism too. It's always going to be easier to resort to force and kicking down someone beneath you than it is to build mutually cooperative social structures of such a large size, and there is no natural, airy force of human brotherhood that can be a given you can beat over everyone's head. The right's answer to universal human brotherhood is to simply scoff at the idea, and it's not necessarily because they're evil or small-minded, but that they recognize readily that humanity isn't one big happy family just because someone wills it or tries to institute it through brute force.

Wyatt Ortiz
Wyatt Ortiz

Ancoms will defend this.

Joseph Nguyen
Joseph Nguyen

Oh, I remember this guy saying 5 year olds can theoretically consent to sex in a socialist society.
Jesus Christ

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Ethan Barnes
Ethan Barnes

All these toastie ex fascists. Sorry but if you're material conditions brought you into something and extreme as fascism then theory isn't like to change that even of you're a self proclaimed leftist now. The type of ex fascists that have developed a rigorous enough intellectual honesty to resist are exceptions that prove the rule.
When push comes to shove and you're asked to make real sacrifices for leftism or take the much easier route of becoming fash, you're already primed to take the latter.
You're not entitled to the trust of leftists because you espouse the same ideology now.

Owen Hernandez
Owen Hernandez

ideologies are bad
Lol not when they're my property

Logan Baker
Logan Baker

I found this old post so interesting that I saved it.

Well, fascism to me is not really a coherent ideology but more of a compulsive force that can be weaponized in the form of an emergency state if there is a threat from the left – that is historically its "function." I'm not well read on theory but it feels like ideologies have to be functional in some sense otherwise you're just LARPing, and Marxist-Leninist theory when it functions is like a weapon in the hands of the working class as opposed to ideologies that service the capitalist ruling class.

Now when you look at fascism there really isn't any theory at all. There are assorted "manifestos," half-baked utopian visions, pornographic genocide novels and dog-faced autobiographies like Hitler's but those will not tell you much. Fascism is non-falsifiable and doesn't make predictions about how things are supposed to unfold other than "everything is going to go kablooey in a big Nazi masturbation fantasy" because the Jews are pushing everyone into it for their own machinations but the Jews are also trying to prevent that from happening to preserve their own conspiratorial position over society (you see how this is like people who believe we're being ruled by space aliens?). But obviously if you tested their predictions to historical reality they would fall flat on their face over and over again, and fascists have never been able to launch their mock "revolutions" without the collaboration of existing elites, including in both the German and Italian cases. In the latter, Mussolini engaged in a show "coup" and the existing ruling class in that country pretended to buckle. It's kayfabe.

There are Marxist theories that fail too but that's why ML tests and refines itself and develops over time, and it's why communists were able to apply these theories to successful revolutions in much of the world including China with 1/6 of the world's population, and it's why Trotskyism is junk science that rides parasitic on the MLs.

I'm kind of rambling but fascism also takes the form of a political commodity and emerges in commodity-driven societies, which I think is very important and is essential to understanding it. Fascists "buy into" fascism – being in the Nazi rally is a way to express oneself and one's identity which you see reflected back at you but without the "right" to express yourself: only the opportunity to do so in a fashion in which you in fact have no agency, and in fact did not determine what that identity even is. This is a form of ideological production based on the aestheticization of *depoliticized* politics, and fetishizing kitschy communal identities as a way of masking the commodity structure. It's the ultimate kind of commodity fetishism. The goal of the left is to break out of the commodity form as a structuring force.
You're not entitled to the trust of leftists because you espouse the same ideology now.
From what I've heard from people who deal with fascist deprogramming IRL, they recommend a several-year cooling-down period where there is no engagement with politics at all. You have to think of these people as like former ISIS fighters. Do not allow them into your groups unless they have been out of that scene for awhile – it's not worth it and these people are dangerous. Fascist groups also tend to attract psychopaths and manipulators / abusers.

The Soviets of course had a blunt way of doing it which was to shove 'em in reeducation camps. But yeah someone is just "oh I'm a Nazi" then a week later "oh now I'm a communist" is probably going to be fucked up in a lot of ways. Because this is Zig Forums and most people on Zig Forums are these fucked up people, it seems like they're the "natural" people to recruit but it's not so.

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Jose Edwards
Jose Edwards

they recommend a several-year cooling-down period where there is no engagement with politics at all
several-years
That's a long ass time and this is why I think counter-recruitment should at least be an option for members who want to leave a hate group. Granted I never believed in the muh joos shit but the way nationalism is built into people from the early age in the US tends to leave people having some pretty fucked up views later in life. I do agree that there needs to be some de-programming but it all varies on the situation/individual on how long it will take or if it will even work. As a ex-nationalist/fash/rightard I truly feel that a lot of rightists are lost on ideology. Some of them can get out but once they go down the "Nazis dindu nuffin" rabbit hole I say it's a waste of time to even talk to them.
Anti-intellectualism is intellectualism for these fools.
Pretty much the only reason I left /pol/ for Zig Forums is because yall made waaay better arguments and had reason. Don't be dogmatic like fascists and exclude everyone who believed in retarded things but in the end it's all relative.

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Christian Perry
Christian Perry

are you that annoying eugenics poster by any chance?

Nathan Rivera
Nathan Rivera

Anarchists

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Carter Morgan
Carter Morgan

Well I agree and should clarify a few things. I'd also like to hear more about your experiences. Were you ever in an IRL hate group? First I'd note I'm talking about people who work on these issues in IRL groups which is different from an internet board and I am really talking about hard fash people who were part of neo-Nazi organizations.

Like you're involved in organizing a communist or socialist group and someone who was in the local neo-Nazi curbstomping and nailbombing gang decides to "convert" then you've got to kinda think about encouraging him on his new path but also telling him to take it a bit slow and easy here. Like I'm not saying don't talk to them or don't try to help – I have actually met former Nazis personally who think total cutoff is a bad strategy and they don't believe that would've helped them. But in terms of organizational roles in socialist groups there should be a cooling off period and some taking it easy for a bit, I think.

I think there has to be some leeway too on case-by-case basis. I think there's also "flux" like this subject in the OP and that is potentially scary.

I've seen extreme cases where people are like "between two worlds" in a way. Like someone shows up in a socialist group, and someone stumbles across his social media later, and there's material glorifying mass shooters and Nazi shit in addition to left-wing stuff at the same time. Of course people like that are sending off warning klaxons like crazy and you wonder whether this person is dangerous, there's definitely some mental illness involved here, etc. There are so many liabilities involved. But I think over time, people can snap out of things like that, and can become to be accepted.

It's like the Tarrant guy who shot up that mosque. If you had the same person who just swapped out the symbols, he would be extraordinarily dangerous to have around, and shouldn't be allowed to stay around. It also so happens to be that neo-Nazi groups often make a point of recruiting and weaponizing guys like him.

I have seen a case where a socialist group kicked out a member, who was a trans woman when they found a bunch of Nazi material on her social media, and she tried to apologize and explain, and it was the most disturbing story. She had been living in this dependent relationship with another trans woman who was a Nazi who also had a boyfriend who is friends with these top alt-right people in the United States, going to their conferences and getting pics with Richard Spencer and all these guys, and this guy had raped her and would basically chase trans women, abuse / rape them and try to convert them into Nazis. I swear this sounds crazy but this is true. She managed to escape that situation but these socialists were like woooooah okay lady … slow down for a minute … it's good you got out of that, but you need actual professional mental help here and should focus on "real life" stuff for a bit and probably shouldn't be throwing yourself into another radical cause – like "we're a political activist organization and not a mental health support club," basically.

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Caleb Cruz
Caleb Cruz

Anyways I don't want to be dogmatic but there are a lot of real problems and issues to deal with, and you have to measure risks. And it's like, what are we set up to do? Is the point of being a socialist to clean up all this debris caused by capitalism or is to change the world? And how do we accomplish that when we've got the equivalent of trauma victims walking in the door constantly and how do we deal with them? I don't want to say I have all the answers or actually know how to deal with this.

Kevin Roberts
Kevin Roberts

going to their conferences and getting pics with Richard Spencer and all these guys, and this guy had raped her and would basically chase trans women, abuse / rape them and try to convert them into Nazis. I swear this sounds crazy but this is true.

This sounds so fucking /pol.

Nolan Mitchell
Nolan Mitchell

eugenics is the true ruling ideology.

Owen Lewis
Owen Lewis

Good post, comrade.
Well, fascism to me is not really a coherent ideology but more of a compulsive force that can be weaponized in the form of an emergency state if there is a threat from the left – that is historically its "function."
I'm kind of rambling but fascism also takes the form of a political commodity and emerges in commodity-driven societies, which I think is very important and is essential to understanding it.
We have to distinguish between fascism as a form that the Bourgeois state takes and fascism as an ideology. Actually this is precisely where we run into some problems. Because as has been pointed out a million times, fascism has no coherent ideology, besides maybe some of the barest skeletal elements, which have to be there in all cases to justify the existence of the fascist state.

The best definition of fascism imo actually begins with the state structure, not the ideology. Fascism is the rule of the bourgeoisie through dictatorship, as opposed to liberal democracy. And this rule, to sustain itself and project power inwards or outwards, has to mobilize whatever social forces it can to have some kind of a mass base. And the social forces it selects for this are the ideologies and movements that are most conducive towards these goals. Such social forces should be malleable, vague, mobilize as large a number of people as possible without endangering the Capitalists interests, jackpot if they are also strongly anti-communist. Therefore these ideologies can take all kinds of forms: religious, ethnic grievances, general reaction, they can have social-democratic elements, conspiracy theories, nationalism. Here we find the 'blank slate' element of Fascist ideology. All of the above things are great, because they are almost meaningless and can be used for whatever purpose, usually class war and imperialist aggression.

So the definitional structure that i would propose for precision is DotB through open repression-→ needs a mass base –→ mobilizes potentially all kinds of different social movements except the radical left—-→the emergent ideologies are without any consistency or core, pure aesthetics.
This is not meant as a causal chain, all these things happen simultaneously, but this is the best definition starting from a class analysis.

Nolan Robinson
Nolan Robinson

It is not, shut up about it already i beg you

Alexander Cooper
Alexander Cooper

again, eugenics is the true ruling ideology, and the implied core of "fascism". if you understand that, and understand that eugenics is and can only be a world system, much of modern history makes far more sense. "fascism" is just an aesthetic form. eugenics doesn't allow for ideological pluralism in any meaningful sense.

Isaiah Peterson
Isaiah Peterson

I remember you. Care to make your case with some detail, maybe explain what makes you right and us wrong? I'm curious to hear your argument.

Gabriel Morales
Gabriel Morales

eugenics is actually pro communist, retart

the current crop of the elite opposes eugenics because they want to maintain a monopoly on all of the good genes

but providing eugenics and CRISPR cas 9 to the global proletariat that would increase Autism Level and agreeableness and cooperation which are almost wholly based in eugenics would trily lead to a more egalitarian society, therefore Communism

Eli Rogers
Eli Rogers

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Easton Baker
Easton Baker

eugenics is the true ruling ideology

you again, can you at least define eugenics and provide evidence for your claim about this being ruling ideology, because 20th century eugenics got scrubbed, it's both scientifically refuted and socially discredited.

Camden Hall
Camden Hall

not an argument

Jaxon Sanchez
Jaxon Sanchez

scientifically refuted and socially discredited
it is neither

the elites practice eugenics among one another while encouraging dysgenics for the masses

Angel Sullivan
Angel Sullivan

I don't really care to go into sufficient further detail here, but the reason you see just about everything under the sun being called "fascism!!!" is because people don't really have a word for the ruling ideas. "eugenics" itself is an ill fitting word, since many of its ruling concepts don't really relate to genetics or biology, but the movement bearing that name is where you really start seeing the old aristocratic notion of divine right fading in favor of something more materially grounded.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_v._Bell
Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200 (1927),[1] is a decision of the United States Supreme Court, written by Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr., in which the Court ruled that a state statute permitting compulsory sterilization of the unfit, including the intellectually disabled, "for the protection and health of the state" did not violate the Due Process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution.
=The Supreme Court has never expressly overturned Buck v. Bell. =

Cameron Reyes
Cameron Reyes

The problem is "ruling ideas". Ideas don't rule, classes rule. Ideology is a tool of class rule. Eugenics, to the extent that it DOES exist as an ideology nowadays (which isn't much), is only a tool of ruling classes, and they could just as well be opposed to eugenics and still be in charge.

Parker Wright
Parker Wright

class itself is an idea, though. the only things that actually rule are materially existing actors and forces, that is people and the forces of nature itself (and people themselves are nothing more than a force of nature, processing and reacting to stimuli). so far as ideas can be reified, they really do rule, but for this to rule in a very direct way requires regular and systematic application of force. this means that the rule of ideology is only possible in the conditions where strong states can technologically exist and exert force, and such power could only be realized in the modern security state. once that was technologically possible and the basic infrastructure built, that's exactly what happened, and you can see this as a gradual process throughout the 20th century, with upheavals and revolts. by 1970, the struggle was over, and that's about where we are today.

like i said, "eugenics" is an ill-fitting word, because we don't have a well developed language for the 800lb gorilla everyone is deathly afraid of, and conspiracism is encouraged among the populace to keep them chasing after each other and after phantoms.

Jayden Mitchell
Jayden Mitchell

I'd also like to hear more about your experiences.
I went to a Confederate statue rally on the right-wing side. I did it to "own the libs." I wasn't with a hate group but I went with a couple of my more conservative friends at the time. Mostly just old boomers and some League of the South people who didn't really get along with anyone, huge turn off personality wise. There was one ardent neo-nazi who keep shouting racial shit at everyone. The only semi-reasonable people on the right are some of those militia/prepper folks but they are insular and protective as fuck. Not to mention a lot of former military and LEOs. After the rally was over I went home and started to reconsider my /pol/tard beliefs. This was before the whole C-ville incident.
Some people in my local socialist scene knew who I was, some didn't. I went to some meetings and socialized with lefties and after a while they thought I was alright not alt-right (ba-dum tsh).
But in terms of organizational roles in socialist groups there should be a cooling off period and some taking it easy for a bit, I think.
Agreed, Building trust takes time and if the organization is to succeed it has to figure out an effect role for ex-fash. Putting them in the front lines is a bad idea but they can always be used for support/intel/transport etc. It definitely did take a while and I agree there should be a cool-down period. I assume it varies for person to person. As time marches on I realize my case isn't as bad as some make it out to be but I'll let yall be the judge.
For example, I think that neo-nazi fucker I met shouldn't have been let around anyone vulnerable like refugees or some people, much less than the regular populace. Isolation can a useful tactic as well. It's standard community defense.
I've seen extreme cases where people are like "between two worlds" in a way.
I still feel like that from time to time tbh. and I still have some friends who mock my alt-right past by hey we all have a journey in life. They cool tho all banter aside
I think there's also "flux" like this subject in the OP and that is potentially scary.
This is why theory, discipline, and socialization are important. One does not merely flip a switch and change. It's a dialectal process that takes time and energy. This breadtuber clearly had no discipline and should take time of the internet as communities like /pol/ can socialize people with some pretty toxic values
It's like the Tarrant guy who shot up that mosque. If you had the same person who just swapped out the symbols, he would be extraordinarily dangerous to have around, and shouldn't be allowed to stay around. It also so happens to be that neo-Nazi groups often make a point of recruiting and weaponizing guys like him.
Agreed, right wing extremists target vulnerable and alienated individuals. These people tend to be very isolated which is why they seldom reach out to groups but the threat of infiltration is a very real possibility. Granted I've never personally heard of a successful right winger infiltrating a group because they have a tendency of announcing their presence really quick as they tend to lack proper socialization in most cases. I am actually really fortunate to come from a decent (albeit racist) family and had friends to rely on as a support group. A lot of these rightists don't have support systems which is why they turn to hate groups to gain a sense of belonging.
dat story
Whew lad. Right wingers have no sense of solidarity, it's all hierarchy and abuse. Anyways I'm glad they got out.
like "we're a political activist organization and not a mental health support club," basically.
I went to my friends and family for support. I was mostly confused and mislead about politics which is why I looked into socialist groups in my area and reached out with them.
I told my story on this board a couple of time but for personal reason I'll just keep things anonymous for the time being. Call me a retard but this is my story.
Here's a video though if you care to know the specifics of the event itself. Rightwing self-ownage incoming
youtube.com/watch?v=XxywbsDZtDs

Brayden Wood
Brayden Wood

I've seen extreme cases where people are like "between two worlds" in a way.

I still feel like that from time to time tbh

Hell I know that feeling. For example, I never seem to hate alt-right youngsters like other socialists do. I simply can't hate them because from the moment I understand them (and I do because I was like them) I can only feel sadness for them, in a sympathetic way. I still would like to reach to them and help them get out of that crap. All of this sounds faggot as fuck but it's the way the whole thing feels. At the same time, I know no solidarity bounds could appear in that environment, only hate and paranoia; we were all devoted not to our peers, but to an illusory image of a perfect and idealized and lost community. Solidarity and kindness can't exist there, unlike in the left. But then again, I never feel at home in those circles. I don't know. It's also related to the internet and imageboards; they seem to be the only people I can call my own. But at the same time, they're not real people, just countless anons with whom I'll never talk IRL.

This is why theory, discipline, and socialization are important. One does not merely flip a switch and change. It's a dialectal process that takes time and energy

Yes it is. And is certainly dialectical in a social sense. It's a whole new process of socialization that requires both personal and individual will and a proper environment to re-socialize you as a productive individual.

Easton Wilson
Easton Wilson

20th century eugenics is scientifically refuted.
i asked for a definition, and some legacy legal crud means little.

Xavier Nelson
Xavier Nelson

chattel slavery is less oppressive than wage labour
Chomsky argues this. basically says that chattel used to take care of their slaves, and now since workers are renteded, porkies don't give a fuck. I believe there's several videos where he mentions this. (not defending Chomsky or this particular pont, just pointing it out).
"we're a political activist organization and not a mental health support club," basically.
based
good posts. fortunately our group doesn't have this problem.

Jace Foster
Jace Foster

Just cull the Sadists. Fascists arn't all sadists and some are sociopaths.
Essentialism is nonsense, some fascists are able to be reasoned with, some arn't. When the time comes, defend yourself and protect against counter revolutionaries.
The eugenics poster is pretty stoned on essentialism right now.

Jacob Rodriguez
Jacob Rodriguez

Do I need to cite every single forced sterilization law and statue in America to make you happy? The very existence of Family Court (which started existence as Eugenics Courts before they were rebranded?) Pretty much every principle of the American education system from grade school up to the university system?

Eugenics was never "scientifically refuted", because the ideology itself has no basis in anything scientific. It starts from very clear, fundamental claims about human nature and how society ought to be organized. The science involved is purely about finding a justification and, more importantly, producing an effective apparatus to implement its policies. Ideology by its nature cannot be scientific, and it cannot be refuted through scientific processes. That's not what science does.

When a model presented by eugenics is attacked as irrational, the system simply adapts and finds a new excuse, and another, to preserve the core, absolute requirement of permanent human hierarchy; and of course, old paradigms do not die easily. The principles of the school system and the hierarchy it perpetuates have not changed in any significant way since the end of WW2; the only great divergence is that, instead of producing large armies of potential laborers and soldiers, neoliberal schools have just openly thrown away most of the population as useless eaters and doesn't particularly care where they end up, so long as they remain locked out from any meaningful political or social role whatsoever (with the lowest orders explicitly barred from even being exploited by industry, except as perhaps prostitutes or the lowest of lumpen occupations).

Daniel Butler
Daniel Butler

Sorry, but we need to be extremely suspicious of ex-fascists, if you truly repudiate your former views, you should understand this, being a fascist is a crime against humanity, one cannot issue a handwave apology for that level of treachery, you will have to prove yourself more than other people.

Carter Campbell
Carter Campbell

Literally who

Andrew Bell
Andrew Bell

Some anarcho-guy who had some spicy takes.

He said black people had it better under chattel slavery and that it is okay to fuck 11 year olds.

Alexander Gutierrez
Alexander Gutierrez

Oh bullshit, there is nothing "essentialist" about it. You're just equivocating and trying to say that someone who openly wants to kill me, who has killed people like me and has continually acted on threats to terrorize me, isn't actually trying to kill me. I'm not going to reason with such people as if there is any possible coexistence, or that they'll change their mind if i give a moral or intellectual argument as to why they shouldn't. It has never worked once in my life, not for me or anyone else, and no fascist would ever leave the movement for that reason. The same goes for anyone who believes in the principles of eugenics of any sort. It is a system that cannot be reasoned with, and there is no mutual coexistence with it, because that is a basic feature of the ideology.

Every ex-fash in this thread has shared their rationales for joining and leaving the movement, and not one of them were convinced because you were able to impart to them the right, good ideas of the immortal science. It has almost always been due to the inherent structure of fascist movements themselves, and how the leaders of fascists quite openly hold their followers in contempt. If those people are going to finally get that and leave, great, but I'm not holding my breath. On average, these people, like people in general, are followers who are so accustomed to self-debasement that they don't care when their leaders are obviously using them and laughing in their face. A good number of these fash are sadomasochists, and you said yourself the sadists need to be culled. I don't think people join fascist movements without having some element of sadomasochism in them though, the ideology and aesthtetics are incredibly sexualist and fetishistic and that's where it makes its appeal to the lizard brain.

Levi Perez
Levi Perez

100% Based and redpilled sir, too many "leftists" on this board try to be the "cool leftist" the leftist that's "not like other leftists", like people on here actually try to appeal to people on /pol/, the vast majority of people on /pol/ will need to be shot or imprisoned, they are not our friends, and we should not refrain from showing our open hatred of all of them.

Jaxon Thompson
Jaxon Thompson

Good post and I'm
A lot of fash are violent defeatists which is why they turn to reactionary violence
Polite sage for db faggotry

Logan Ortiz
Logan Ortiz

100% Based and redpilled sir, too many "leftists" on this board try to be the "cool leftist" the leftist that's "not like other leftists", like people on here actually try to appeal to people on /pol/,

lol this is leftypol dude, we don't try to appeal to /pol but if we actually say things against the liberal variant of idpol, something that /pol would surely agree, well, i'd say that's in the rules of the fucking board. It's the board spirit. You don't like it? Go to tumblr or reddit, idk what you pretend

not one of them were convinced because you were able to impart to them the right, good ideas of the immortal science

well this is entirely true, it's certainly not with reason that you convert a fash

Thomas Torres
Thomas Torres

Bro, you don’t get it fag, we have to, like, appeal to our mortal enemies who all want to murder us because anything that vaguely resembles idpol (like being antifascist for instance) is worse than genocidal fascism!

You’re a faggot and a traitor

Caleb Barnes
Caleb Barnes

implying 90% of Zig Forums isn't ex-fash

hi are you new?

Hudson Garcia
Hudson Garcia

2938867me

I mean this is fucking Zig Forums

Thomas Hernandez
Thomas Hernandez

Let the puritans purity spiral

Landon Howard
Landon Howard

literally read the rules of the board

did you arrived here two days ago?

Ayden Sullivan
Ayden Sullivan

There’s nothing wrong with fucking eleven year olds. Christians and feminists are the one’s who raised the age of consent to its current sky-high position. Stop being spooked

Brandon Rogers
Brandon Rogers

Jesus Christ, fuck your faggotry, if you’re utterly obsessed with appealing to people that’s entire known rule of warfare is death and destruction to all communists you’re a fucking traitor, full stop.

You think Stalin wouldn’t have you shot for so much as sympathizing with the fascist dogs? You think any other revolutionary leader wouldn’t put you in detention for that shit?

Lol, why don’t we appeal to fash guys, something something idpol

Lmao, any revolutionary would’ve shot your ass for suggesting colluding with Nazis is preferable to literally anything

Thomas Thomas
Thomas Thomas

Back to /fascist/index.html with you.

Easton Evans
Easton Evans

Nah I prefer here. /pol/tards are insufferable
You can go to r/whatever

Angel Sanchez
Angel Sanchez

hello fellow Marxists, I have seen the light and am one of you now
You should be put in a camp

Jason Turner
Jason Turner

one of you now
us vs them rhetoric
Idk bro sounds pretty fash lmao amirite

Aaron Stewart
Aaron Stewart

When the lines are drawn you will quickly run back to your fascist buddies. Your material conditions will dictate it. Only privileged whites would ever turn to fascism in million years

Jaxson Garcia
Jaxson Garcia

That is yet to be seen liberal

Jason Sanchez
Jason Sanchez

Except it already has been seen

Just with the very idea of your material conditions/privileges as a 1st World white person being threatened you found yourself alongside the fascists, with only the idea of losing what you had you chose a genocidal, autocratic, anticommunist ideology.

Why would we believe you wouldn’t do it again when shit really hits the fan? It’s one thing to talk the talk when shit don’t matter yet, it’s another to hold to it when the mask comes off, if you were already fash once why would we think you wouldn’t turn on us in the very end?

Isaac Cox
Isaac Cox

yurr a lib!
You’re quite obviously petty bourgeois and as soon as the going gets rough you’ll be hiding behind the jackboots to save you from the “mobs”

Angel Butler
Angel Butler

you're literally retarded

we don't try to appeal to /pol but if we actually say things against the liberal variant of idpol
we don't try to appeal to /pol
say things against the liberal variant of idpol
against idpol

Colton Rogers
Colton Rogers

So much LARPing in this thread, heh. As if most people on leftypol aren't just lifestylists who like Soviet aesthetics and can pick up some Marxy-sounding lingo.

The dividing lines won't be between "working class" and "fascists". The working class had its chance and failed to grab it. If there is going to be a revolution or some sort of drastic change to the system, the lines will be something we haven't really seen yet in history, because the classes that can contend for power are different. The working class has been bifurcated between the relatively well-off educated and the uneducated who do not have a future in liberal capitalism, and neither can reconcile their differences in any meaningful way.

Kevin Roberts
Kevin Roberts

If it's a challenge yall want it's a challenge youll get. I've learned the rhetoric of leftists so I'm way more dangerous than your average jackboot
Assuming a first world revolution is even possible. The modern left seems incapable of leaving its insular groups. Leftists are a small fraction of the population and seem incapable of seizing power at the moment

Brody Long
Brody Long

It sounds like you need to read more Marx bro. Get your idealist (revisionist) interpretations of the advancement of class-struggle out of here. Unless you have quotes that back up your claims, you’re not practicing Scientific Socialism
reddit spacing

Brandon Campbell
Brandon Campbell

na, it's just pointing out obvious things for an actual retard who can't read a single sentence

Liam Cooper
Liam Cooper

You’re reddit spacing again, fag
reveals himself as the fascist he is
Go back to /fascist/

Landon Davis
Landon Davis

literally not an argument, so I'll keep doing it

Mason Nelson
Mason Nelson

Stop it faggot

Jaxon Scott
Jaxon Scott

Revolution isn’t possible in the imperial core and it’s retarded to think it is, this shit was settled by Mao’s Three Worlds Theory, the revolution will happen in the periphery once the retardation of the core causes it to destroy itself, which it’s already setting up to do currently.

Really the only threat to socialism at this point is climate change and nukes, and they’ll either be a benefit or a detriment depending on how history plays out.

However, considering socialism is dependent on the collapse of the imperial core, I have a hard time believing you can hold to it once the going gets rough.

Juan Jenkins
Juan Jenkins

I'm not a "scientific socialist", and I'm more or less stuck on the political left by default.
I've read enough of Marx and talked to actually competent Marxists (which doesn't describe you), so I'm quite familiar with the Marxist take on history and class struggle. I'm not convinced there can be such a thing as working-class solidarity, at least not in the imperial core, because the division between the educated and uneducated is so thorough that the two see each other as practically alien races. Maybe in parts of the third world that is still possible, but even there the same sort of situation is developing, and of course those areas are themselves necessarily tied to the imperial core.

There is a reason now that both the "New Left" in mainstream politics and most of the socialist movements extant today almost exclusively focus on educated workers. That's where the power is to actually do something, those are the people who have any leverage to use to make demands. That's why if you see a strike, it's almost always a teacher's strike or some other skilled profession that is indispensible to the working of the capitalist state. Unskilled workers, factory workers, service workers, don't matter anywhere near as much as they did during the age of high imperialism, or even the Cold War period. In short, commanding large armies of labor and soldiers no longer presents the same sort of competitive advantage, and we are in the situation today where the system needs to invent make-work just to keep most of the unskilled doing something. The conditions of 21st century capitalism don't allow for anything like the labor movement of old, even if the working class could get over seeing its seperate sections as complete alien Others (which is difficult because, at a fairly basic level, they really are Others, and that would be obvious the moment their common masters can no longer rule).

I don't think "revolution" is impossible, but it wouldn't be the kind of revolution you're thinking of. Just think though, when the OG Revolution in France went down in 1789, it wasn't some simplistic story of how the bourgeoisie kicked over the aristocrats and made liberalism the thing forever after. There were liberal nobles, bourgeois liberal commoners that didn't really want the kind of republic that Robespierre and Danton wanted; in the end, the monarchy came back and muted many of the changes of the revolution; when liberalism made a comeback after many more revolutions and cycles of capitalism, it was often the liberals joining WITH the conservative aristocracy, and the conservatives accepting the new liberal capitalist order as a given and not trying as hard to fight what was happening. By the 20th century, liberals and conservatives could barely be called "bitter rivals", they have been ruling in tandem to take on their mutual enemies, the socialists and the rabble in general.

Charles Jones
Charles Jones

I have no intention on holding on to this dying empire. Let it collapse and take all the reactionaries and liberals with it
Believe whatever you want. I never went to /fash/. I am an ex-/pol/tard. Go sign the Molotov Ribbentrop Pact stalinstache

Dylan Campbell
Dylan Campbell

all of this revisionism
actual ex-fascist accusing me of fascism
Irony

Joshua Lewis
Joshua Lewis

You fucking need to revise your theory, big time.
Fucking LARPers.

Alexander Flores
Alexander Flores

But user red-fascism is still fascism :^)

Owen Torres
Owen Torres

posts revisionist garbage
called out
<y-you’re a LARPer

Asher Lewis
Asher Lewis

I'm not a ML fag so I don't give a shit about "revisionism" or any such dogmatic nonsense. This sort of faggotry is why the left is such a joke and no one takes you seriously.

Just remember, when shit when down in 1991 and the USSR fell, no one was taking to the streets or protesting the fall. It died with a whimper, even as everyone knew the collapse would be a disaster. That tells you just how fucked we all are. No one has any will to resist the nightmare, eugenics rules completely to the point where it can no longer even be questioned, and the few people who have any interest in fighting are the completely dispossessed and damned who will just be systematically humiliated and slaughtered, their deaths glorified over and over (since the torture, the humiliation, the rape, is the entire point of the eugenic system, to perpetuate it forever and ever).

Dylan Lopez
Dylan Lopez

I don't give a shit about "revisionism" or any such dogmatic nonsense.
Science is not “muh dogmatism”, liberal

Daniel Richardson
Daniel Richardson

Ideology is not science, retard.

Nicholas Torres
Nicholas Torres

when shit when down in 1991 and the USSR fell, no one was taking to the streets or protesting the fall.
Wrong
youtube.com/watch?v=bjBmtkW3Tl8

Austin Sanders
Austin Sanders

1993. After it was too late.

I am certain that once the Nazification of America is complete and mass exterminations are carried out more or less in the open, that might finally get people to mass protest, but by then it will be too late, and it will only be the desperate who are set to be exterminated anyway. They'll rebel because they have no choice, because they're going to be killed anyway and might as well go out fighting, and they'll all be slaughtered - TO THE CHEERS of your so-called working class that has sold out a long, long time ago, just as much of the world passively accepting the Nazi slaughters of Communists and political enemies.

Justin Thompson
Justin Thompson

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Austin Thompson
Austin Thompson

Marxism is not an ideology, it is a science. Fucking newfags

Henry Hernandez
Henry Hernandez

report the fuck out of that channel and get it shut down?

Nolan King
Nolan King

siding with corporations to silence people you don’t like
Topcuck

Christian King
Christian King

In science, you don't get autistic about "revisionism" when you're clearly wrong in your scientific analysis, and you don't try to fit theories where they don't belong just because they're pretty.

Anyone who insists that conditions are exactly what they were in 1890 is someone who really, really shouldn't be trusted, who has no idea what they're talking about, and is almost certain just someone LARPing with Soviet aesthetics. Which, you can guess, is really fashy behavior and tells where these people are coming from. They're not serious and they're not even trying to be serious. This sort of faggotry has made leftypol unbearable for theory, and you wanting to engage in lifestylism is just another indicator of why this place is shit. It's like /pol wanting to create an echo chamber with certain aesthetics, not even trying any more. It's much the same on the rest of the internet, including the supposed "woke" left.

Now, if you had an actual grounding in M-L theory (which stalinstache does not), it's fine to discuss that theory and how it applied to society then. I think the theory is fundamentally flawed for many reasons from the very start, but hey if you want to keep failing like the USSR did, good for you.

Henry Scott
Henry Scott

I'm not convinced there can be such a thing as working-class solidarity, at least not in the imperial core, because the division between the educated and uneducated is so thorough that the two see each other as practically alien races.
As even the educated "middle class" is further immiserated and proletarianized, I don't see this cultural divide as unbridgeable insofar as it arises from current material circumstances rather than a permanent state of affairs. Regardless, I don't think that the cultural differences between the educated and uneducated are even as significant as they were fifty years ago in the West.

There is a reason now that both the "New Left" in mainstream politics and most of the socialist movements extant today almost exclusively focus on educated workers. That's where the power is to actually do something, those are the people who have any leverage to use to make demands. That's why if you see a strike, it's almost always a teacher's strike or some other skilled profession that is indispensible to the working of the capitalist state. Unskilled workers, factory workers, service workers, don't matter anywhere near as much as they did during the age of high imperialism, or even the Cold War period.
They do matter, but the reserve army of labor has become larger and more flexible as globalization has proceeded. While capital has become international, workers, however, are largely limited to being organized nationally. For that reason, the only workers insulated to an extent are jobs that require local presence and largely cannot be moved overseas (e.g. teachers) or which require infrastructure for skill training (e.g. colleges) that tends to be more difficult to find in countries where unskilled labor is less expensive. That is, it has little to do with education itself or how dispensable the form of labor ultimately is to capital. As usual, what does matter is the price of labor and the ability to source the type of labor necessary for production.

Robert Morris
Robert Morris

You're both equally stupid and you're both reddifugees. This board used to have good content quit ruining it with your autism.

You deserve congratulations for actually effortposting Fuck these /r/FULLCOMMUNISM LARPers.

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Sebastian Lewis
Sebastian Lewis

im so fucking sick of chapo i hope every illiterate faggot on the board is a gay sex slave post revol

Jose Barnes
Jose Barnes

And you've just revealed that you've read no theory whatsoever. I think it is you that is the newfag. I'm back after BO's purges to whip you tanktards into shape.

NEOLIBERAL LEFTCOM GANG

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Asher Lee
Asher Lee

calling someone a newfag as a LARPing FALCfag
you uh might be a faggot

Jaxon Bennett
Jaxon Bennett

As even the educated "middle class" is further immiserated and proletarianized, I don't see this cultural divide as unbridgeable insofar as it arises from current material circumstances rather than a permanent state of affairs.
I don't know if you are aware of just how far the uneducated are being pushed down. They're scrambling for whatever jobs they can hold on to, and for a great many of them the prospect is either to get on disability or work in quasi-legal jobs. (ssa.gov/OACT/STATS/dibStat.html - note that these figures do not include SSI recipients as far as I know, which would increase the number considerably. You are still talking about roughly 10 million adults who are declared permanent invalids, or around 3-4% of the population; this does not include people institutionalized in other ways, or the considerable prison population of which some are imprisoned pretty much because they are invalids railroaded into prison.) The uneducated are being pushed into lumpens, and the educated at the bottom of the totem pole are getting pushed into the low tiers of labor to replace them. We're talking about a situation where large swaths of the population are declared unfit to even be exploited by capital, who will be in no position to wage struggle because they are too disconnected from the production process in any sense. This process will eventually hit the rest of the world once the bottom falls out in the First World economies, particularly America. (In America and Europe, there will almost certainly be large-scale exterminations of the disabled population, and likely the migrants who are currently detained in ICE camps, and there's basically no way that it can be stopped at this point; we have known this was going to happen for about 30 years and people seem to be even more supportive of these measures than they were in the 1990s).

I expect that the trigger for revolution (if it comes to that) won't be that the poor are so immiserated that they must rebel, but that the middle strata of the educated professions are going to be cheated by capital, and enough of those people will be in positions to wage class struggle - for their class, and the remaining lower educated class that has been annexing the jobs of the uneducated for the past few decades. The uneducated would be seen as natural enemies for a variety of reasons, mostly because the uneducated have no reason to accept that the educated will consider their demands in good faith, and in any analysis of what a post-revolutionary state would entail, it's pretty clear that the uneducated have no place in the new world, no matter how many promises are made. We're used to betrayal after betrayal.

Jason Allen
Jason Allen

Let this be a warning to those who let 'former alt-rightists/fascists' into leftist circles. It's fucking ridiculous how leftists bend over backwards to convert some of these people only to see this happen.

Joshua Edwards
Joshua Edwards

He is right. Reminds me of that ancap poster who said you pretty much cant move anywhere without a BSc. It's simply not profitable to keep useless eaters alive and once the even weaker contemporary left loses the fascists will do the dirty work for porky again. There is much more public support to cut off the uneducated underclass than to expropriate the rich. human nature

Mason Young
Mason Young

It's not so much "human nature" as it is the nature of political power and how it will always be easier to use violence for expedient, short-term gain. You could find some use for a lot of these people who are damned, or at least allow them some decency before they are allowed to die off, but that's too much to ask for apparently. Everything has to be this hyper-aggro shitfest, and great expense is paid out to maintain nothing more than vanity. People pay billions if not trillions of dollars for nothing more than assurances that they are good and special and better than the people around them, and it's completely unnecessary and stupid, yet people of every class (except the extremely, extremely submerged) choose it every time.

We could do better. We could easily do better, the way we conduct business in this world is ridiculous and so obviously detrimental to most of the world's people, and even for the rich the value of all of this is dubious to say the least. The only people who consistently get anything in this system are sadists who enjoy kicking down people (and these people are found in all social strata, except again the lowest of the low who don't really have anyone to kick down and are so terrorized that they can't really engage in such behavior). I refuse to believe it is human nature to be this sort of sadistic monster that is utterly incapable of building anything of their own, because otherwise nothing at all would be done (not that we accomplish much in our society, but generally most people just want to live their life and the aggression is restrained somewhat compared to how bad it could be without any sobering influence).

It's true though, the educated hate the uneducated, and I mean HATE in a way that is difficult to fathom if you yourself are educated. It's a miracle if someone comes out of the education system not hating the underclass, as literally all of our doctrine regarding education, intelligence, and the significance of such, relies on a pressure against the failures. If even a small fraction of this hate were directed at the pillars of the capitalist system and its enablers, nothing like the neoliberal turn could have happened. There would have been revolts, as the middle class could have seen (and did see) the obvious implications of neoliberals engaging in outright theft of public property. But, at a basic level, the middle class, the educated, were willing accomplices in neoliberalism, because in their heart of hearts, they wanted to beat down the weak far more than they cared about resisting the strong, even passively resisting the strong.

Brayden Allen
Brayden Allen

C'mon m8 it was only an anarkiddie

Jordan Roberts
Jordan Roberts

we have known this was going to happen for about 30 years and people seem to be even more supportive of these measures than they were in the 1990s
I'm obviously much younger than you, but how can you be so sure that outright extermination is going to take place? This is too far out for me to believe, unless you provide me with some of the 'signals' you say you've detected. The development of more coercive means of control? Is that what you mean. Or are you really talking about 'camps' and 'gas chambers'.
Finally, America is a very large place. I really don't see the need for 'extermination camps', as if a few million people were so burdensome.

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Thomas Ross
Thomas Ross

The resources spend on keeping them alive could be profits for porky instead. The tories killed 200k with their austerity.

Ethan Young
Ethan Young

During the '90s, when I was in school, I noticed a shift in how the administration was acting, and the ideology of teachers that were coming into the system was of a very narrow sort and almost uniformly pro-eugenics. I didn't have any historical context to understand what was happening at the time, but ever since I left I've seen everything move from bad to worse consistently, and the movement has been predictable. The people my age have thoroughly accepted eugenics, it's beyond hope at this point, and from what I understand children today have it far worse and large swaths of the population are being written off as worthless.

As for the existence of concentration camps, that has been an open secret for a long time now. The locations of these facilities can be found with enough searching, and there was a list running around that was distributed by militia groups online during the '90s. I don't know where it is now, and how much the information has been reprocessed through conspiracy theory and bullshit, but the existence of these facilities is not a secret. Nor is it a secret that those facilities were expanded in a big way after 2001, as were the capabilities of military police (DHS procured a staggering supply of ammunition and distributed it to basically every government facility, which made it clear they were preparing to fight a civil war with overwhelming force).
Really, the actions since 2001 have been pretty clear Nazification, and we were pretty well aware for a decade before that the neoconservatives were hell-bent on pursuing that since they got a taste of power under Reagan. Back before the news was completely co-opted, there were some quite public pieces in the media about how all of this "Homeland Security" stuff was straight out of Hitlerism, and in response the Bush II regime basically laughed and said "yeah, we're an Empire now, get used to it bitches". It was all quite brazen in how much they were ramming it home to Americans that they didn't really live in a republic any more.
Then the crash happened and Obama put a smiling liberal face on it, and the country has been basically in freefall ever since. There was another big shift around 2015, and during the 2016 election cycle, I could sense from watching the news that a switch was flipped again, and the media went from "the Empire's mouthpiece" to straight-up batshit insane Goebbels style shit, where it has remained ever since.

That's why I said in the uspg thread, expect to see some "kill the disabled" propaganda in the near future. The point won't be to actually convince people that this is a good idea (the people who need convincing have been there for a LONG time), but to beat down the public through terror and announce acceleration of a process that has already been going on for many years now. The camps, as I said, have been ready to go for a while now, no national security state would have been complete without such an apparatus to be used against a target population. Moving from concentration and forced labor to outright extermination would be trivial.

Lucas Thompson
Lucas Thompson

Hello eugenics-warning poster, we met again.

Neoliberalism is equally opposed to human well-being than Nazism, i agree with that, and one can categorize the neoliberals in the same category as the Hitlers and Mussolinis. However they differ in their methods, for example the 20th century Fascism in Europe was explosive in substance and bombastic-pompous in style, the neo-liberal mode of human destruction is incremental-methodical in substance and deceptive-secretive in style.

If you wanted to attempt to describe a neo-liberal eugenics project as imposing an artificial selection pressure on human survival, then they seem to pretty consistently kill based on money-points or rather lack there off. Since the amount of money you have is mostly based on luck and not any particular biological disposition. If you look at the most successful people as having the most money-points they share little beyond a astounding level of mediocrity.
It might also be relevant to look at the increasing level of depression/suicide and psychoactive substance abuse, as a psychological gas-chamber and analyse whether this qualifies as an attempt at a genocide.

I have attempted to comprehend eugenics from a scientific perspective, to gain an objective view on what this is attempting to achieve, but given how profoundly anti-scientific this is, it's hard to pin down beyond very general trend of shrinking the gene-pool of the human species. It's not really possible for selective breeding to target the proclaimed traits, because those are emerging from complex genetic interactions and large numbers of environmental factors. One also has to note that a fascination with eugenics seems to correlate with a very negative view on humanity that is overemphasising the destructive aspects.

Socialists tend to locate the origins of most evils of society in mismanagement where resources and human effort is spend and take a view that the problem lies in systems that emphasise the bad quality of humans, rather then the good ones.

As far as improving human biology goes, there is a simple way to gage abilities, if you cannot fix health problems and guaranty something like a century of perfect health, for everybody, and i mean you have grasped the functioning of human bodies to such an extend that it's as trivial to fix human bodies as fixing machines, you simply failed the bare minimum qualification for this. If you can't even repair the machine, don't to even think about attempting of turbo charging it. Eugenicists are hacks peddling quackery.

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Josiah Gutierrez
Josiah Gutierrez

This nigga went anarcho-Juche.

Zachary Bailey
Zachary Bailey

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David James
David James

I'm an ex-/pol/tard. Never browsed reddit. I can agree the quality and poster count of Zig Forums has gone down seriously tho.
Where did all the leftcomms go?

Ryder Adams
Ryder Adams

still trying to fit in
You’re a fucking ideologically inconsistent LARPer who flip flops from extreme to extreme and after being a cuckservative faggot who not flagellates himself for showing up to a protest over a monument and thinking that makes him a Nazi crawls into here and is suddenly the biggest baddest communist alive who is a theory master. Fuck off faggot, you’ll turn fash if something ever really went down

Joseph Nelson
Joseph Nelson

First learn some grammar and syntax, I can barely make out what the fuck you are saying
makes him a Nazi
most right wingers are fash to leftists anyway so what does the distinction matter?
biggest baddest communist alive who is a theory master.
Meh I doubt it myself personally. I prefer the material analysis of history as it is the most accurate ways to view events and history. I doubt blaming everything on muh jews or niggers does any good. Nor will it get anywhere other than chaos and destruction
you’ll turn fash if something ever really went down
<if
Something will go down in this country and the empire will fall just like Rome did, there will be people who will rebuild society from the ashes.
/pol/ is shit. I am among you now. Deal with it

Jacob Smith
Jacob Smith

Where did all the leftcomms go?
Probably to take a nap

Austin Thompson
Austin Thompson

F

Charles Lopez
Charles Lopez

Somebody in thread admits to being an ex-fascist who converted, that doing so is not completely impossible, and states he is completely against people like those in OP's image and fascists in general
Immediately there are anons who begin purity spiraling and shouting how he will never truely be a leftist, how he still possesses a fascist mindset (despite him only having said one sentence on the subject initially), how he will inevitably become a fash again, and how he will never be forgiven and that he should fuck off permanently
This is the most fucking retarded unpragmatic shit I've seen on this board in a long time. Rather then try to cultivate user into a better leftist and push him further into engaging in more theory, you are, for some fucking reason, actively trying to push him away from leftism completely. It's like you're purposely trying to drive new converts away, and this is all while the right is doing doing everything in their power to lure people further towards fascism with little regard to their ideological past. If the right wasn't purity spiraling itself right now due to e-celeb fuckery, media drama, "optics", and ideological abrasion, we would be in an objectively worse off position then we are currently due to people like you. There are leftists who are engaging with actual criminals in prisons right now, and you're here getting your panties in a twist over one internet ex-"fascist" who's already repudiated his past and wants to become a better leftist? Fucking really?

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Joshua Jenkins
Joshua Jenkins

Criminals are not fascists, you fucking prick.

The left is just a joke period. The dirtbags are just ironybros looking for a cheap laugh, they'll inevitably fold when it comes to doing anything substantial. There is no heart to actually do anything.

Let me guess, you're going to whine and cry about how it's mean to kill fascists, and you're one of those faggots who start moralizing the moment the left finally gets enough sense together to do something proactive that would actually attack their enemies? Fucking idiots, just fucking idiots all of you.

Jaxson Bennett
Jaxson Bennett

I'm sure most of the people convicted did worst things than shitposting Hitler pictures in Zig Forums. You're mentally retarded.

Leo Murphy
Leo Murphy

There it is, the pathetic, mewling moralizing again. Fucking faggot, everything is a lifestyle choice to you.
That's the problem with politics, it has been reduced entirely to a lifestyle choice commodity to be bought in the supermarket of ideology. There's no realistic idea of what political success would even look like, because for the past 70 years it has been one continuous defeat after another, and the state assuming ever-more power for itself and crushing all dissent ruthlessly. When the state can declare someone invalid and render your supposed rights a dead letter, there isn't much room for meaningful politics or any action. Then you act surprised when the state uses torture just because it's fun.

But hey, you can keep whining about the feefees of fascists, as if those people wouldn't kill and rape for fun and profit the moment there's no law to keep them in line, and haven't been passive supporters of the worst this state has done. The hilarity of the Hitlerposters is that their ideology is so banal, it's exactly what they've been conditioned to believe in. They aren't even rebels to the degree that your typical gangster would be. There are plenty of Hitlerites in the apparatus that manages this state, I know they inhabit the teaching professions quite frequently.

Jonathan Brooks
Jonathan Brooks

Nice defeatism

Joseph Carter
Joseph Carter

No i'm not moralizing you asshole. It's precisely because I don't think that everything is a lifestyle choice that I don't cancel edgy teenagers who shitpost Hitler pictures. You seem to think that for some people their actions are choices, and for some other not. Of course, if we were in WW2 and fascism was about to kill me I would have no other choice than fighting. But you do realize that we are dealing with internet shitposters don't you? You're just another pathetic tankie larper who wishes to recreate le epic WW2 style and propaganda.

Robert Richardson
Robert Richardson

But hey, you can keep whining about the feefees of fascists, as if those people wouldn't kill and rape for fun and profit the moment there's no law to keep them in line, and haven't been passive supporters of the worst this state has done. The hilarity of the Hitlerposters is that their ideology is so banal, it's exactly what they've been conditioned to believe in. They aren't even rebels to the degree that your typical gangster would be. There are plenty of Hitlerites in the apparatus that manages this state.
Based. People should be tested and shown things like bullying scenes and if the regions of their brains light up that indicate joy they are terminated. For socialism we need socialist people.

Benjamin Adams
Benjamin Adams

So, the alternative to liberalism is just plain essentialism. Now we are going to make brain analysis to the people who wants to be socialist. If you don't have the right genes or brain you're not socialist. Based tankie

Kayden Kelly
Kayden Kelly

It doesn't matter what people want. What matters is their output to certain inputs. You literally can’t build a society out of only antisocial people who kick down, and in mixed ones they are parasites on the rest so minimizing them is a necessity for the public good.

Michael Lewis
Michael Lewis

Wow a post that has absolute nothing to do with anything substantial.
This has nothing to do with "ideological purity", this has to do with people who have consistently shown that they have no interest whatsoever in actually fighting anything. Nice projection, since it's the fash lifestlyists that like to post the hammer and sickle most. I'm not even a Marxist, ffs, so why would I care about Soviet aesthetics?

The reason leftists worked with prisoners, by the way, was not because of moralism, but because those prisoners were in a position to do something, particularly the prisoners could strike against prison labor ("but reeeeeeee it's ILLEGAL!", you would say, no shit sherlock). Fascists who willfully do fascist shit are not doing so under any serious compulsion, but do so because they are brain-rotted cowards who follow the easiest path, one they are not-so-subtly pointed towards. Putting on some Soviet aesthetics and doing the same shit but for Communism is not a meaningful change.

What is this faggotry? Piss off.
If these "ex-fascists" are going to do something, great, but everything I've seen from them suggests they aren't interested in anything significant.
If there's going to be any sort of "revolution" worth a damn, it's probably not going to be in the Marxist tradition, except in the loosest sense of being rooted in the Marxist take on social science (and even that is arguable). You can just as well take the Marxist method and propose a world system that has nothing whatsoever to do with any sort of labor-centered socialism (and if you actually read Marx, the guy is quite clearly concerned with just making the one-party state, anything after that just gets worked out by the new ruling class, which assumes the will of the so-called "proletariat" for itself).

Cameron Allen
Cameron Allen

brain-rotted cowards who follow the easiest path, one they are not-so-subtly pointed towards
isn't this the case of, mmm, the big majority of people regardless of how fascist they are? if that wasn't the case I imagine that socialism would already be triumphant

Ian Hughes
Ian Hughes

It is especially the case with fascists, who engage in a mental race to the bottom and latch on to the most base of emotional appeals. "Waaah, liberty" becomes little more than an appeal to whatever feels good for them at any given time, without any long-term consideration, and these people will walk over a cliff like lemmings at the direction of anyone who sounds convincing enough. Even people from older generations weren't so brazen, as at least they could cite genuine ignorance, but the fascist typically knows full well they engage in a game of doublethink, and knows full well how liberal capitalism works, even if they only have a working knowledge of it rather than a theoretical knowledge.

Ethan Stewart
Ethan Stewart

What you are criticising comes about via box thinking, people are being stuffed into a box according to some usually static rule system, that describes an essentialist category of being . One has to point out this type of erroneous thinking.

what also has to be pointed out is how the 2940662 responds for example isn't making any arguments and is just insulting you, which is a reactionary clergy tactic, whereby opposing opinions are punished with exclusion and negative social interactions (vampire-castle-ed) . This has to be pointed out as well.

purity spiraling
this comes about by the attention economy that is enforcing pattern of a small group of e-celebs gaining most of the attention. The small number of available slots for e-celebs creates a sort of minority mindset, that necessitates a pruning of the in-group, where "excess members" have to be excluded by some mechanism. (for example purity tests) One also has to point out that in the e-platform economy, e-celebs are almost organised like digital casts, which probably is a response to the precarious nature of their income source where viewer attention and hence income can just disappear. They have to please 2 masters, the advertising compatibility of the algorythm-masters and the psychological hooks of viewers.

There's also the possibility where lots of attention distorts the personality of people into a more narcissistic direction. When dealing with this we have to pay attention to only attack behaviours, not persons.

What we lack is a way to break the ideological stranglehold of neo-liberalism, that pushes people towards exclusion, based on archetypal and stereotypical categories of being.

We have to consider why these categories of being are so popular, you get a sort of blank-check, where you can inhabit the category of being that is goodness impersonated, while doing horrid things. "Don't look what I'm doing , look at what I am"

Ian Russell
Ian Russell

If these "ex-fascists" are going to do something, great,
Thank you. Finally, you get the point I've been trying to make. If you have doubts then that's on you. If I have truly something to prove then that's on me. Lifestylism be damned trust isn't easily gained especially amongst the insular left but we all have things that we need to work on. I've pretty much derailed this thread so I'll just lurk for now.
Consider this my last post for now. I'll be back tho.

Blake Harris
Blake Harris

I've made arguments repeatedly in this thread, as have many others, about why pushing others to accept fascists is silly. They won't stop whining until they have unconditional acceptance, because for them it's like buying into a new lifestyle and if they can't make their purchase in the market of ideology, they feel their freedom has been compromised, or something. It's silly.
There are legit ex-fascists (the kind that actually get into fights rather than /pol shitposters) who switch sides and show that they are actually serious, but that's not what the people here are doing. They're just shitposting on leftypol or stupidpol, often with the same sort of memes except now with a leftoid flavor. I don't think the former would ever expect full acceptance given to them just for whining, because they would know from their experience in fascist gangs that tests of loyalty are necessary to become a made man in any gang.

Charles Butler
Charles Butler

But I think you got it wrong because we are not saying "accept fascist ideology". No. I don't buy that nazbol crap. I don't buy nazi ideology. What we were saying is that people who engage in today's fascism (that of course is not getting into the SA) can be reformed, as individuals. The problem is you have these retarded """tankies""" that are as much of a meme as nazis, wanting to roleplay being in the second world war, talking about testing the brains of fascists, killing them and so on. It's stupid and pretty childish.

Caleb Hughes
Caleb Hughes

They're both the same sort of thing, though, whether it's tankies here or tankies on r/soc (although the latter tend to just be more ignorant). They are people disconnected from any real concern with the success or failure of resistance to the current ruling order, because they know their status isn't really in question. If they go to a protest and get arrested, they usually have a pretty good chance of getting of easy. If I showed up to a protest or made any significant peep of action, my life is basically over (not that what I'm living now is much of a "life" anyway).

I think it's really silly how the left with contort its theory in circles to ignore the obvious, and keep trying to maintain orthodoxy when it is blatantly obvious that (a) the International is deader than dead, and (b) the conditions Marx was writing about don't really apply to capitalism from around 1940 onward, except in the most vague sense. In any event, they're missing the point of all that is happening, and why society is arranged this way. It's difficult to have any hope when even the left isn't willing to acknowledge the problem, and can only offer weak simpering answers to the ruling order.

Ryan Moore
Ryan Moore

Let me guess, you're going to whine and cry about how it's mean to kill fascists,
No. I have, however, always argued that actions regarding revolution should be done out of clinical nececessity and not out of emotional or moralist indulgence. Revolutions are not clean affiars, and anyone who believes that such a thing will be clean or that those in them will be "clean" is an idealist or lying to themselves. We must secure any advantage open to us and secure victory at any given cost otherwise any "cost" invested will be rendered meaningless. If that means allying or adopting those who possess a "dirty" history simply for numbers, I'll do it. If that means removing those who are "clean" paragons of morality simply because they unknowingly obstruct the revolution, I'll do it. It is not at all improbable that you will likely have to fight with the absolute, bottom of the barrel, scum of society against those you personally may find "kind" or misguided. You might get lucky and have it the other way, but it's not likely. For me this is a question of pragmatism, which is why it astounds me that you would purposely drive an open convert out due to your own personal emotional feelings regarding his past. If he is actively posing a problem or acting as an obstruction then maybe I could understand it, but he started off with one statement regarding his past.

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Joshua Gutierrez
Joshua Gutierrez

Lol, LARPing about revolution. You don't know shit about how revolutions work. If you did, you wouldn't be writing about some fantasy scenario that will almost certainly not happen, and you absolutely would be considering the conditions under which the Second American Civil War would be fought. Nearly anyone who is remotely fash-aligned is going to be co-opted by the regime, as they already have been (Proud Boys and other fashy organizations are friendly with police forces). The few who aren't would almost certainly be warlords of a sort whose only concern is holding territory for their profit, who would never allow anything like a socialist or even a liberal government to dictate terms to them.

Justin Collins
Justin Collins

Yeah and lol @ that user posting Nechayev. But yeah my impression is that all this talk about Civil War 2: Electric Boogaloo results largely from boredom since people are just waiting around to vote for Bernie Sanders or Trump again in 2020. But boredom doesn't result in civil wars.

The divides in the U.S. also seem to be primarily urban and rural, and it's hard to see what the actual class divide is there since you have different groups of workers pitted against each other. But largely it's reflective of the fact that different groups of capitalists in the U.S. have different interests and that breaks down along urban and rural lines.

If you see modern civil wars like in Syria, you actually do see a rural vs. urban divide, and the rural side lost badly. The winning side has been the well-organized cities + the tight-knit minority groups. I find it kind of goofy that the political violence in the U.S. has been between largely small groups of white people in some of the most out of the way, white places. But there's no way in hell these Trump thugs would try to start problems in black neighborhoods – they much prefer to outsource that job to the cops.

The U.S. population like other developed countries is aging as well, and aging societies don't start civil wars. In the Middle East you have this massive bulge of young men roaming around on both the Sunni and Shia sides. Like Iran has a massive, booming population of people under the age of 35 who could volunteer to go into Quds Force missions into Syria to bolster Assad's forces and so on.

James Evans
James Evans

Quality post.

Gavin White
Gavin White

The divides in the U.S. also seem to be primarily urban and rural, and it's hard to see what the actual class divide is there since you have different groups of workers pitted against each other. But largely it's reflective of the fact that different groups of capitalists in the U.S. have different interests and that breaks down along urban and rural lines.

This is the bourgois point of view, however a more realistic view would be that there is a centuries ongoing historic migration where increasing numbers of people move into cities, and while this weren't a big problem in of it self. Capitalism allows for large scale real estate speculators to drive up rents.
In the US there is a complicating factor where also imperial finance is set up serving not only domestic capitalists, but also foreign capitalists and trans-national capitalists. Usually it would be simple to just side with the national bourgeois but in the imperial centre this becomes difficult because the lines can be blurred. Deciphering the financialised interests is a fools errand because those change to fast. What you have to do here is consider that the working class is largely territorially restricted in the US, so the focus should be on physical capital rather then fictional capital, because it is easy to stop somebody from moving physical capital and it's neigh impossible from stopping somebody to move financial capital.

Hudson Collins
Hudson Collins

Well you are right about that. But I think presently this is taking the form of a "revenge against the cities" reactionary right-wing populism at the moment. The left populists like Bernie Sanders are kind of interesting though because it seems like they're trying to build a movement among the service-sector working class in the cities.

Andrew Anderson
Andrew Anderson

Expanding my comment on an ex-fash trying to become a leftist to all fascists and reactionaries which exist currently
You keep doing this, and you've been doing to others the whole thread. We are talking about those who we're fash and are now leftists, and you're coming here trying to conflate that with all current and future fascists who are not at all interested in abandoning fascism. This is the same a conflating nationalists who became communists with nationalists period.
You don't know shit about how revolutions work.
Do you? You seem to be pointing towards some condition where things are cleanly set, where America explodes into some immediate and bi-factional civil war rather then the slow and arduous decay it's already going through with civil war resembling the majority of those in the past, with nationalists, bandits, socialists, and all manner of reactionaries and utopians fighting a slow and largely opportunistic war of attrition with international intervention coming in both a direct and indirect fashion. If we are talking a complete destabilization scenario, then we can expect a conflict more reminiscent of territorial gang wars and block by block/city by city street fighting in the more urban areas and general banditry with "centralized" local populaces banding together for security in the more rural areas.
Or you know what? I could be wrong, and the conditions could be completely different from before. But we have to be adaptive and not work on presumption, and that requires us to hold necessity as a "principle" above all else.
posting Nechayev
I actually largely disagree with Nechayev but with the things I agree with, I agree with completely. I never understood this mentality where the specific statements or portions of theory someone wrote are invalidated because the body in it's totality is incorrect. It's completely undialectical.

Mason Fisher
Mason Fisher

In the US there is a complicating factor where also imperial finance is set up serving not only domestic capitalists, but also foreign capitalists and trans-national capitalists. Usually it would be simple to just side with the national bourgeois but in the imperial centre this becomes difficult because the lines can be blurred.
Deciphering the financialised interests is a fools errand because those change to fast. What you have to do here is consider that the working class is largely territorially restricted in the US, so the focus should be on physical capital rather then fictional capital, because it is easy to stop somebody from moving physical capital and it's neigh impossible from stopping somebody to move financial capital.
Ok, now I'm confused. Are you this user? Because if so, why exactly were you disagreeing with my point of allying with questionable individuals and groups out of pragmatism or engaging in action based on necessity? Because I do, to an extent, agree with what you said here.

Jackson Wood
Jackson Wood

If there's going to be a "revolution" of any sort in this country, it will be the middle class pursuing its interests first, because the capitalist system of class collaboration is no longer functional for them. Revolution isn't some narrative of the poor and oppressed throwing off their chains, that has rarely ever happened in history and even the closest thing to it (something like the Haitian slave revolt) would just put a ruling class of ex-slaves on top. The "working class" won't align as a single thing because they are not, in actuality, a single thing, no matter how much Communists want to claim that they are. Decades of betrayal after betrayal from the self-appointed vanguard of the so-called "working class" (that often does suspiciously little actual work) have killed any goodwill socialism would have with the general populace. The Marxist tradition of movements, at least any movement that involves labor in general, is dead, and it's never coming back. It certainly has no place in America, not in any serious sense, which is why you have a lot of "socialists" who don't really know what socialism is except that it means, like, free stuff, or something.

Levi Diaz
Levi Diaz

rural v cities
this is not an interesting frame

Sanders could try to save the towns in the country-side via internal tourism, dachas with American characteristics, also high speed internet access could make these towns viable for tech-workers, and lastly retirement homes.

Are you this user?
no

Adam Adams
Adam Adams

woah some sheltered ex-fash youtuber realized that if they actually overthrew the system they would lose the perks bestowed upon them by race or financial status under it. at the same time they are on the wrong side of capitalism so they try to ram fascism and socialism together into some ethno-spooked mess.
woahhhhhhhhhhh we could have never seen this coming.

Blake Nelson
Blake Nelson

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

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Cameron Hernandez
Cameron Hernandez

RUDE

Leo Wright
Leo Wright

Revolution isn't some narrative of the poor and oppressed throwing off their chains,
I don't think I said as much? Where did I pretend revolution was anything less then people selfishly pursuing their material interests?
would just put a ruling class of ex-slaves on top.
And?
Decades of betrayal after betrayal from the self-appointed vanguard of the so-called "working class" (that often does suspiciously little actual work)
But America has never had a vanguard, much less a genuine communist movement in the last half-century that wasn't completely suppressed, and those countries that did have a vanguard largely find that it wasn't the vanguard as a whole that betrayed them, but specific actors. Like, I don't even necessarily agree with that narrative of only individual subversive actors being what caused the collapse of socialism, but that's what a large part of older folks believe. And marxists don't believe the working class will be completely united, like even fucking Marx understood class traitors to be a thing and rejected class essentialism.

Oliver Young
Oliver Young

What happened with batko?

Jeremiah Hernandez
Jeremiah Hernandez

graduated college and properly joined the middle class

Kayden Mitchell
Kayden Mitchell

You're talking about the majority of the working class being "class traitors" then, because (surprise, surprise) all of those workers aren't essentially the same thing, and the working class has turned against each other even without prompting from the capitalists. That any demands were ever won at all was a miracle, and the welfare state was not a worker demand but the nail in the coffin for any organizing (and really, once the modern welfare state and national security state is established, capitalism as Marx knew it was done; at best you could describe the period afterwards as a kind of state capitalism, but what you're really seeing is another form of class society in which humans themselves have been thoroughly colonized and segregated, and you could have seen this coming if you understood the American class and racial segregation system and how it was effective at its purpose; modern eugenics is just a refinement of that).

Elijah Richardson
Elijah Richardson

Inner-class conflict occurs in a vacuum, apathetic proles are the same as class traitors, working class infighting has never occured before in the past and is a modern thing which makes revolution "impossible"
Eugenics
Oh, it's you.

Joshua Flores
Joshua Flores

Not sure what you mean, I'm no race realist^tm but i dont see why material interactions couldnt result in races within a species with different abilities caused by evolving under different conditions. And for humans, race is a real thing with relevance to certain medical treatments and diagnostics.

The process of speciation neccesarily has a stage where you have races of different abilities within a species.

And wether different races have different abilities (data says not really) doesnt matter anyway for communism, as individuals already have different abilities and contribute labor according to ability

Jacob Lopez
Jacob Lopez

I'm waiting for Eugenics-kun to publish his equivalent of Capital

Jeremiah Perry
Jeremiah Perry

Wow, it's a jagoff who can only greentext and not contribute a single real argument.
The "working class" has been at its each others' throats throughout the history of capitalism, which is why Marx got so butthurt when the lower classes supported Napoleon III and other such comical figures and had to invent the "lumpenproletariat" so he can say "oh, it's the working class, but not THOSE people, you're the good kind" to potential recruits… not that Marx ever really bothered trying to recruit from the actual "working class", because he concluded that it would be a waste of time for his goals (which was totally right, for what he was going for, and what Lenin was going for).
Revolutions aren't waged by the low, they are always waged by a middle class when the opportunity arises to seize power from a ruling system, and usually it involves elements of the old ruling system seeing the writing on the wall and making alliances with the middle class to attack other upper class oligarchs. If the low have any aspirations in revolution, it is the hopes that they can get in a new middle class, or at least get some sort of deal where they get to continue living, or at their highest level of accomplishment, they simply have at last the freedom to ignore their lords and burn all symbols of their domination (but this is always a brief victory, even the most committed of anarchists want to rein in such a state of affairs because it would be uncontrollable and wouldn't allow a new world-system to develop). Usually, though, for the low revolutions are a tragic event that they somehow survive, and go along with because they have no other options. Only the very desperate of the lower class have any interest in the socialist camp or the "left" (allegiance to the political right in any meaningful sense is always from people who have at least a decent stake in the ruling order, the lower class members of the political right are either single-issue partisans who see the right as furthering a narrow cause, or thorough degenerates like the fascists whose ideology is such that they can only be regarded as a base animal rather than someone thinking in any coherent sense).
So yeah, revolution is impossible, at least in whatever moronic sense you believe it is going to happen, because the "working class" has been starkly divided from the start. Generalized education systems have made this division stark and obvious, because by design they seek to sort humanity into grades, where they perform essentially different kinds of work and are considered essentially different kinds of people. We don't have a model of an education system that does something different, and while on paper it's possible to conceive of something far better than the shit that we have (that would actually be cheaper in resources by a lot), in practice the material basis for the eugenic mode of production makes this impractical and the same sort of ideology would form along different lines until they could reclaim the academy. But, even without the education institution, workers of varying professions do essentially different things, they are not really comparable and, even in system of intense social control, most of these people are doing their job because on some level they willfully agree with the objectives of the institutions they work for. It would be quite impossible for the teaching profession to do its job effectively if EVERY SINGLE TEACHER were as jaded as the typical assembly line worker and utterly hated the system, and even if the teachers hated the capitalist system, they almost certainly believe in social hierarchy of some sort because their status and position above the general public relies on it. Asking people to give up their vanity is literally asking them to give up the only thing they have left. If they had to go down to the level of a normal, it would be worse than death (and there are people who go through this demotion in status permanently, it really fucks with them). Now just imagine if they weren't only dragged down to the status of a "normal", but to the kind of treatment doled out to those who are deemed life-unfit-for-life, the people who are openly attacked in the open and whose torture is praised as a social necessity (as it must be in the eugenic system). To be put at that level would be an absolute nightmare, one that would lead most normal people to suicide at the least. They couldn't live with such a degradation if it were their every day life. No one can.

Cooper Bell
Cooper Bell

I doubt it's ever happening. I had the idea in my head, but who would read it? It's too late. There are only a few stragglers left who have the will to even complain about the ruling system, and they contend with a public consciousness which is aggressive towards any criticism of the status and vanity of the educated.

Austin Sullivan
Austin Sullivan

Are they saying that they are anti-egalitarian? or is there some sort of belief that people will peacefully be relocated and re-segregated using controversial criteria?

Ryan Long
Ryan Long

People can overcome fascism, but they can't just say they're not fascist and then everything is hunky dory. Those behaviors and the capitalist conditions that lead you to be fascist don't disappear overnight. If you are a former fascist, *especially* if you were an active fascist i.e a cop, in the military, part of a racist organization ect you are going to have to work harder to *prove* you've really changed and win back people's trust.

Xavier Cruz
Xavier Cruz

Based.

Connor Hall
Connor Hall

National anarchists are just edgier lolberts

Sebastian Reed
Sebastian Reed

i want to clear up that this is not my second post but some other guy who seems tgo be doing his best to drag the mao flag through the mud at every oppurtunity.

there is plenty wrong with fucking 11 year olds and Mao was probably one of the most successful and radical feminists of all time you absolute fucking helmet

Matthew Taylor
Matthew Taylor

Made way better arguments
then why ban the ones that manage to do so on here?
And even then the top tier arguments can also belong to the board /fascist/

Kayden Nelson
Kayden Nelson

How are you enjoying the redesign? Modelled it after my syndie flag

Owen Lopez
Owen Lopez

Because fuck you, that's why.

Evan Brown
Evan Brown

Attached: 0CB95021-4B7D-4095-94AC-DDDD2EE3F7E8.png (284.16 KB, 604x522)

Parker Ward
Parker Ward

Translated: Visionary Oaks is a racist LARPer who doesn't understand anarchism or leftism in general.

Let's destroy this loser.

Landon Phillips
Landon Phillips

fash
imagine saying the word “fascist” so many times that you need to come up with a slang to shorten it

Nathan Ortiz
Nathan Ortiz

Fuck off /fascist/ and /pol/

Leo Edwards
Leo Edwards

youtube.com/watch?v=WXCyDanffrw

Angel Gonzalez
Angel Gonzalez

Been in the movement for well over a decade, and this is the least surprising thing ever. Seen it happen many, many times. "An-coms" going over to fascism happens as regularly as libertarians or "an-caps" going over for the same reason. It is politics based on ultra-individualism and on heavy idpol, both share a commonality in their primary adherents being middle class students, anti-anti imperialists and broadly anti communists ("Stalin was a fascist, man!")

If you don't believe me, actually look into the origins of the 20th century fascist movement. The roots of fascism are in Anarchism and Syndicalism, hell an early name for the fascist movement was "National-Syndicalism".

In all my time in the movement, I think I've met a single anarchist who stuck around for more than 5 years. Granted the retention rate of "communists" in the west is generally quite low, but it is especially so the case for anarchists and "left-coms". Every so-called "ancom" or "leftcom" is a ticking timebomb. Sooner or later they go full fascist, or full liberal (An old anarchist buddy laughed when I said this back in 2013. 3 years later, he was working on the Hillary Clinton campaign.)

In short: It was inevitable. And soon enough, Muke and the others will join him and spend their days making videos about how "they used to be a communist, but…"

Attached: MASALA1.jpg (91.56 KB, 600x600)

Aiden Reyes
Aiden Reyes

People should be tested and shown things like bullying scenes and if the regions of their brains light up that indicate joy they are terminated. For socialism we need socialist people.

When you're totally not a schizophrenic biological determinist

Carter Stewart
Carter Stewart

You don't do that shit while being an otherwise decent person
LOL, who gives a shit about being "a decent person"? I'm an utter bastard, but that's never stopped me from being a marxist. Fuck off with your bullshit moralfaggotry.

Dylan Nelson
Dylan Nelson

It's not a moral question, tard, it's a question of being someone who can even be tolerated. Anyone who would fall in line with fascism in the first place is probably attracted to core tenets which cannot be reconciled with anything that can be tolerated, and these people never really renounce their beliefs even if they make a giant public show about how tolerant and open minded they are (indeed, much of liberal "idpol" is empty virtue signaling to put a face on how much they actually hate the weak).

Joshua Perez
Joshua Perez

Most of modern "fascism" is people taking conspiracy theory shit too far, they actually believe that jews are behind everything bad, which is kind of true because zionists due legitimately influence foreign governments, and jews were the only abrahamic religion allowed to commit usury, which allowed them to gain power and then keep it ethnically pure via nepotism, although obviously that doesn't mean that jews are to blame, just individual bourgeoise who are also jewish, but the "fascists" are stuck in that liberal good capitalists vs bad capitalists moralistic schtick, when the system itself is bad and no amount of good capitalists are to blame. It's just whenever I talk to a "fascist" it seems like they think communists are some kind of mcarthyist nightmare, like they think succdems and neolibs are communists, or cops who shoot blacks are communists… it's silly, but an obviously harmful misconception, at the kernel level.

As an aside, how important is the internet? Is it srs bizniz? Can you really change people's opinions over it? Can you change enough people's opinions to make any kind of worthwhile social impact? At it's inception people had man utopian goals for it, it would connect humanity, yadda yadda…

Anyway, what is to be done about the fascists? Violent internet posturing might intimidate them enough to force them to reconsider, or the fear might be temporary radicalize them further against us, but maybe if we do that far enough it will also make their rage impotent and useless. We could try convincing them, but it's unclear which ones are just trolling and which ones are educated sith lord fascists and which ones are uneducated reactionaries. Obviously we should violently oppose them if the time violence comes…

Jason Roberts
Jason Roberts

yeah if fucked up grammatically multiple times in this because im a retard and just type and dont reread what i typed. but i hope you get the general point
I also forgot to take out my freud cigar, i'm not freudposting, but maybe we need some willhelm reich shit…

Colton Morris
Colton Morris

Fascists who renounce their views and become leftists are objectively better people than people who've been leftists their entire lives.

Joseph Robinson
Joseph Robinson

This is a bizarrely anti-marxist line of reasoning. You seem to be attributing political alignment to some kind of essential property of a person, rather than the material conditions/social relations which they live under.

Aiden Gonzalez
Aiden Gonzalez

That's why the kulacks just became good workers after they were exprpriated and according to your vulgar marxis understanding stopped being reactionary. In good part political allignment (not specifics but things like position to egalitarianism) are inborn, the rest are the life experiences (here is where social relations come in) that shape the person. People don't change much, even less so the older they are.

Gabriel Wood
Gabriel Wood

Political alignment is not inborn wtf.

Christopher Parker
Christopher Parker

I'm sure Dirlewangler would have become someon who defended the weak against the strong if only he had gotten the right upbringing. Fucking liberal, behavioralism is idealism.

Gabriel Thomas
Gabriel Thomas

Political alignment is shaped by material conditions(relationship to production first and foremost. The bourgeoisie are not reactionary because they are born that way, they are reactionary because it is in their material interest to preserve the status quo. This is like basic materialism, ffs.

Leo Turner
Leo Turner

Or maybe it's a certain type of person that likely becomes ruling class, like those cult leaders in small. If what you said were true class traitors would be impossible.

Levi Nguyen
Levi Nguyen

Well history and reality has proven the idea that class is the end -all be-all of politics incorrect
Class is an important factor on politics but implying that idealist bouj don’t exist is foolish
Yea there are reactionary bourgeoisie but also many liberals in the upper classes as well
Also if you think Marx didn’t believed that life experiences played a role in political alignment you are an idiot (see his friend Engels)
(Yea liberals could be considered reactionary but when we are talking about literal nazis the distinction is important)

Charles Rogers
Charles Rogers

Yea there are reactionary bourgeoisie but also many liberals in the upper classes as well
At this historical juncture liberals are reactionary
Just saying

Kevin Allen
Kevin Allen

I didn't mean to imply that life experiences don't play a part in shaping somebody's political alignment. I was arguing against the the idea that political views are inborn which is idealist nonsense.

And I would consider idealist, liberal boujs to be reactionary, although not as dangerous as their fascists counterparts of course.

Alexander Perry
Alexander Perry

We kill Fascists because they are our enemy, not because they are evil. They are evil
what the fuck is evil?

Austin Lopez
Austin Lopez

WTF? A massive number of people change their political alignment across the course of their lives, usually because of changes to their class position. There's a reason older people tend to be reactionary as fuck despite having been more left wing when they were younger: they have accumulated some small amount of capital. People can go the other way too: I was a typical petite bourgeoisie brat when I was younger, but my politics changed in part because I've been poor as fuck all of my adult life. I went from flirting with fascism and various other reactionary ideologies in my late teens to early 20's, to being a committed marxist by my late 20's.

Nathan Martinez
Nathan Martinez

Vulgar marxist meets vulgar geneticist, take I-don't-know-what. Jesus.

I highly doubt people who were drawn to fascism demanding violence against the outgroup, people who are the first to kick down the man beneath them, will ever change their ways, because such a belief system is self-reinforcing. There's not a lot of space to coexist with someone who is so quick to resort to such faggotry, and I expect them to worm their way into whatever movement will have them if they can't get in with the fash or the libs or cuckservatives or whatever.

I think you're overanalyzing it. Usually the fash just want the first pretext to kick someone beneath them, and the conspiracy theorizing is just a flimsy pretext or an attempt to understand the world. Fascists aren't the only people who believe in conspiracies, and belief in conspiracies doesn't make you a fascist (we live in a world FULL of conspiracies, after all).
Only the more passive followers of fascism are into it because of the conspiracy theory making sense, and many of these people are just repeating the values that this society tends towards (since with the system we have right now, "fascism" is the only ideology that is admissable as a serious one; no one really believes in liberalism beyond its forms, and obviously socialism is anathema, and "conservatism" is a hodge-podge of incoherent ideology that is quickly turning into fascism-lite anyway).
I don't know how someone takes from a conspiracy theory that we need to suppress the blacks and uphold race-based slavery, yet that's the number one complaint from /pol and their ilk. It's pretty clear the active fash are in it to kick down people, often being from a class position where at the least they have a job and a reasonable certainty of survival. I've never been impressed by fascist bitching about how they're so oppressed. Even the NEETsocs tend to be relatively well-off compared to other NEETs and particularly loathsome examples of the species.

I don't have any particular concern about what to do with the fascists. I just don't want to hear their faggotry about how they want to adopt some new commodity-ideology, and I don't care to hear about their perversions of Marxism or socialism that they'll abandon the moment they get bored. If they're going to not be faggots for a while, then great, but chances are if the left has any actual meaning to you, then being an active fascist would be beyond the pale, and even passive fascism would leave you feeling uneasy (since unfortunately, as I said, the only values in this society that are congruent to its structure are "fascist" values, a lot of normies tend to absorb those ideas uncritically, i.e. the rot that is sold as environmentalism in the mainstream).

Anthony Barnes
Anthony Barnes

Our degenerate cancer ridden other half is paying attention to this thread
zigforums.com/thread/13495513/politics

Michael Parker
Michael Parker

Wow, it's an overdose of pure faggotry. I can just smell the gay every time I enter /pol, it's so odious.

I maintain the very obvious point that if you were drawn to the ideology and praxis of actively fascist organizations in the first place, it isn't likely that you're interested in anything like a socialist project at a very basic level.

Charles Sanders
Charles Sanders

I highly doubt people who were drawn to fascism demanding violence against the outgroup, people who are the first to kick down the man beneath them
These aren't the only reason people are drawn to reactionary political postions. More often than not the process of losing your class standing plays a far greater role: there's a reason the fash tend to be lumpen-proletariat or degenerated petite-bourgeoisie. People in such a position will tend to desire a return to their prior condition, whether through state-corporatist enforcement or repression of an arbitrary outgroup.

many of these people are just repeating the values that this society tends towards (since with the system we have right now, "fascism" is the only ideology that is admissable as a serious one; no one really believes in liberalism beyond its forms, and obviously socialism is anathema, and "conservatism" is a hodge-podge of incoherent ideology that is quickly turning into fascism-lite anyway).
This leaves you in a bit of a bind doesn't it? If people tend towards facsism because of the fundamentally fascist values of society, but at the same time fascism is a ideological black hole that apparently can't be escaped - where do you go from there? Give up entirely?

chances are if the left has any actual meaning to you, then being an active fascist would be beyond the pale, and even passive fascism would leave you feeling uneasy
Not really. You be amazed at how easily desire for violence against an outgroup can be redirected to violence against state and capital.

I maintain the very obvious point that if you were drawn to the ideology and praxis of actively fascist organizations in the first place, it isn't likely that you're interested in anything like a socialist project at a very basic level.
I can't speak for active fascists, but I certainly was attracted to reactionary ideology in the past, only to abandon it entirely later. I think you're pushing a very moralistic conception of socialism here - and in my experience it's the moralists who tend to be short live socialists. Where your apparent desire for a better world collides with the material reality of your class position ("socialist" moralisers are almost invariablly petite bourgeoisie students), you'll pack it in and become a run of the mill liberal.

Luke Ortiz
Luke Ortiz

While /pol/ is always cancerous faggotry, the OP of that thread makes a fair point: the notion that people have an inbuilt and immutable political alignment (whether for genetic reasons or psychological reasons) ironically gels pretty well with fascist views on race and culture. The far right routinely make the same argument to justify their persecution of immigrants.

(sage for double post)

Dylan Sanders
Dylan Sanders

actual democrap in Zig Forums
you just have to go back.