how do we defeat idpol once and for all? Im so sick of feminists and trannies bitching about much queer rights muh rape culture muh colonialism
How do we defeat idpol once and for all...
Reminder that class is a identity. Why is your socially constructed identity so much better than others?
as marxists we are opposed to colonialism and support the rights of women and other marginal groups
these are problems caused by capitalist imperialism and hierarchies
if you are opposed to destroying the existing capitalist hegemony you arent literally hitler but functionally you are
Shut the fuck up. Class is your relation to the means of production. You belong to a certain class regardless of what you choose to identify with.
I hope you are just trying to get OP to properly defend his viewpoints against liberals.
while class may have a social element it is indeed the relation to the means of production
who cares if you "pass" as rich if youre actually just a conman who doesnt make money from exploiting wage laborers for profit
youd actually be a lumpen in that situation, not bourgeois
Class is not an identity, it's a person's relation to the means of production.
And many of the idpol nonsense that is getting pushed is mostly because these big corporations and the bourgeoisie are using it as a way to keep the lower classes fighting among each other over irrelevant racial and gender differences instead of uniting against the bourgeoisie. Not to mention idpol (On both "SIdes" of the issue) is literately petty-bourgeoisie/bourgeoisie ideology.
idpol as a reactionary invention is ahistorical.
the causes of the marginalized were created and maintained by the leftists and socialists and now leftists are buckling under corporate pressure to pivot and accept socially reactionary lines in the confusion to not seem like theyre matching capitalist idpol. if youre a simple thinker with poor grasp of things its easy to write anything that makes you uncomfortable as idealism.
idpol must be waged against idpol. the inferior ideology (the one that isnt actually reasonable or dialectical) will lose the argument
zero historical comprehension
you probably shouldnt comment on race or gender if you dont even know surface level details of these causes
no one is going to unite with you if you continue to deny the complexities of their political struggle, which is indeed idpol itself, the thing you are denying and calling bourgeois
Oh yes, let's support Don Thompson against the McDonald burger flipper because identity has a direct relation to class, tozen.
No idpol must be resisted as the deliberately separating nonsense it is. Not to mention is has become co-opted by big corporations and is being used as a way to help sustain capitalism.
Watch these videos from sev_k to better understand what I mean:
Go off queen!
MORE 👏 BLACK 👏 NON-BINARY 👏 WOMEN 👏 BOURGEOISIE
That's what the revolution is all about!
Good attempt at obscurity, department of homeland security.
That meme is 100% boomer
Where did he say this?
We defeat IDpol by having the Right execute all IDpolists then we watch as it crumbles under the contradictions of Capital
I can’t identify myself as bourgeois if I have no money…
That's what all identity politics boils down to
Everything material should be represented by class
I agree but at the same time it's dumb to argue that racism/etc doesn't exist at all. Not that I'm saying you are strictly but we can't totally ignore it.
Oops I should have marked that with
'thesis' 'antithesis' 'synthesis'
Yeah I mean shit like racism, sexism, and other kinds of bigotry and shit exists obviously, I just wanted to take the piss
You guys realize that's bait right?
As for OP's actual question, we do it by dissociating us from the idpol crowd. It isn't really a way for getting rid of idpol, but it should help us massively. Very few idpolers call themselves communists, and of those that do an even smaller amount are genuine communists. Obviously this doesn't mean we should completely neglect shit like racial or sexual opression, but not got full retard like what SJW leftoids have done.
I can’t identify as black If my skin is white, still idpol.
Corporate / hedge fund interests are spending money (typically in the forms of grants or just through media ownership) to spread lines about "SJWs out of control" in major newspapers and liberal magazines.
I never denied it was a shitpost
Not for the lack of trying though. Get a tan or surgery bro. Same can’t be said for bourgeois.
Except for the fact that black and white people literally have a different face and body structure. There's a reason why "blackified" white people and "whitified" black people look so fucking weird and out of place.
I never said anything about effectiveness though
You can nowadays. Look at Shaun King or Elizabeth Warren, whiter than fucking talcum yet they’re seen as black and native.
there's been constant and unrelenting right-wing smear against Warren, such that no-one respects her in that regard anymore. thank fuck.
No, class is a relation to capital, which, people can make an identity around, the right wing populists use it like an identity, to obscure class consciousness. I don't like OP and MOST anti idpolers, because they make identities rooted in the struggle against idpol, and not capital, again, like the right wing does. Everybody should relize that all sorts of garbage like sex, race, gender, status, etc. will effect your position in the class hierarchy, and whether you can move in it. Class struggle includes all libertory struggle, because anything that effects class is most definately against a class society
We defeat idpol by sticking to class analyses and appeling to the common worker. The common worker is working 3 some part time jobs and don't give two shits about trans rights, only that they are paid 7.50 a hour with promise to work but are basically being laid off. Offer a alternative. A system in which they don't have to worry about not being able to work and failing to pay the bills.
We need to underscore the importance of unionization and solidarity among other workers of all stripes without deviating into pet issues that doesn't really matter in the struggle.
Agreed, although to some extent an identity can form around class position simply by virtue of a hardening of certain semi-constant culture elements as identity fetishes rather than any conscious attempt to obscure class consciousness.
Being against something is not creating an identity around it, because simply being against something cannot be, by itself, an identity. Being against something can be reflective of some identity, but the negativity itself can't.
It doesn't necessarily, or, rather, class struggle only pursues a liberatory struggle insofar as this liberation would be also a negation of capital, not insofar as it simply negates a certain form of ideological control within capital. The difference is that class struggle would be opposed to racism insofar as it is a means for controlling and dividing the working class, but not as a goal in itself except as a means for achieving communism (rather than, say, an improved capitalism).
This is the kind of right wing anti-idpol that I was talking about here . There are trans workers, and they probably on some level care about trans rights (How trans people relate to capital), and have class consciousness, I like the part at the end where you mention that it's going to be workers of all stripes, but then immediately say their struggle doesn't matter. In reality its a yin-yang, a dialectic where minority rights and class struggle are part of the same fight, liberation has many facets.
Yeah liberals can be annoying but that doesn't undermine the fact that working class people need to fight together in anyway possible to make life more bearable for one another no matter what that struggle is.
Reform isn't an ultimate goal but it sure makes living easier under a capitalist dystopia.
You can also use reform to shift things further to a revolution by using reformation as a spring board to further revolutionary ideas.
Even Marx agreed.
Contempt for other working class people is how pork wins.
Yeah, this is what I mean, right wing ideologues like Tucker Snarlson use these to create a false identity around the idea of a class to obscure class consciouness
In spectacular capitalist society identity can be made around anything, look at fandoms, and the incel movement, If this clears it up, I mean that when many people take up the ideology of anti-idpol, like many other things, people start with the label, and change their positions to match it better, essentially treating ideology as a grab bag of beliefs.
I think communism (by itself) should not be the goal either as this is just an expression of the working class seeking to liberate itself from class society, so the goal should be liberation in my view, and anti bigotry is part of the goal of total liberation
I'm sorry but increasing pay and better working conditions is better for all workers than some other issue that only satifies a small minority of workers.
Workers benifit by anti-idpol legislation like anti-discrimination as was practiced in the soviet union.
I'm not saying abandoning one for the other, honestly what I'm saying is more a critique in idpol, in the sense that trans struggle needs to be viewed through a class lense, but also that trans struggle is part of liberation if it has a class aspect, and can't be abandoned or thought of as not a real worthy fight
is somewhat naive, but there is a point to be made about "pet issues." A left politically focused on issues of identity is a left largely satisfied with current economic arrangements. That is, it has no revolutionary potential.
The two are equivalent, or you have in mind some alternative method of liberation, or you're aiming for "progress" within capitalism, as is apparently the case with >2943431.
The problem is that "anti-bigotry" without a basis in Marxism is always a moving target subject to transformation according to definitions and redefinitions within a liberal ideological atmosphere. That is, if one isn't rigorous in anti-bigotry, one simply verges into generic expressions of liberal anti-racism, anti-sexism, etc., which don't further class struggle in the least.
I'm not , and I agree with you.
When Blacks were under chattel slavery in this country the communist movment wasn't to give blacks the plantation or seats of power where they also have their own set of subjects it was to bring all workers into the wagedom and to liberate them from slavedom, blacks simply were in the slavedom category.
Exactly liberation struggle has to have a class facet and address specific problems one but, that's exactly what it was though, because it wasn't a move from slave society to classless society, it was a move to capitalist class society for more people, which is an improvement, but is exactly what you describe with black capitalist having seats of power and having their own subjects. And I know this is not what you are doing but I've been mostly trying to address class reductionists mostly, because this attitude can lead to people missing revolutionary opportunity, and divides the working class
By what I mean wasn't capitalists, but plantation ownership and ownership of other slaves. I'm sure that some black people during that time thought that it would be a good thing if he became the black butler, slave hunter, slaver because it's one of the only economic system that is known to them that is the best they ever had before. The Industrial capitalists forced at least some of the blacks to be proletarians (before jim crow and the imprisonment). The goal of communism isn't to bring up one identity, it is to move all identities into the next stage of economic development, into a classless society. Back then it was to proletarianize and bring society into capitalism.
I feel the word "class reductionist" is probably a word to describe me just to separate me from the PC language policing, identity focused crowd anyways.
I agree with this, but I'm saying also that to get to communism, we're going to have to fight a lot of fights, including those that just effect certain sections of the working class like racism, sexism, etc. and these can't be ignored, and they can't be separated from class struggle unless you want to
A) Create limp, annoying, garbage liberal identity reductionism
B)Create stupid pigheaded garbage, the working class doesn't like X reductionism, the reduction of class to an identity or aesthetic, like right wing demagogues or people who just like red flags and nazbol memes
Neither of which I accuse you of so shut the fuck up,
Can you give me an example of these problems in our current society? Apart of occasional sexist exploitation of women in fertile age I can't think of anything.
Even with the previous example, chattel slavery wasn't a purely racial issue either but a case of a section of workers being subjected to treatment as mere property. The idea that it is purely racial is more liberal than left-wing. It's obvious that racial ideology was used to justify the subjection of those workers, but what was more important to the plantation owners and capitalism at the time was how it provided a large number of workers whose work could be exploited for even greater surplus profits.
Honestly a lot of it is just cultural and attitudinal things that lead a division of the working class in class society, a subclass that has even less say over things than a working class person who is say white, straight, cis etc. In a revolutionary class society these divisions don't just dissolve, and recreate a class-subclass society where some of the working class have no power (IE USSR Gay rights).
I do not understand what are you trying to say by this. USSR didn't oppress gays except for short after-war period, but how is pointing out such things relevant to our current societies I have no clue.
claims without proof can be refuted without
There were no prides and gay bars therefore oppreshun
just fucking ignore them. Write papers debunking their bullshit and try to shift left back to labour problem.
I don't post here usually
but if the left could get rid of IDpol they'd win every election in europe by a landslide for decades to come tbh
That's the problem. Idpol is a tool of neoliberal capitalists so it's very hard to get rid of, since every corporate entity is attached to it.
It's a distraction from class warfare. Vote Na t Soc and Communism.
Note the board here itself is D& C since it censors words. The people running leftypol should be changed forcibly by the admins.
unfortunately untrue. Most european communist parties reject idpol, yet we are not winning.
everybody is racist. political opinions are genetically transmitted, therefore hating a "conservative redneck bigot" for what he is, is bigotry of the worst kind.