Anyone longing for a place they've never been to ? Anyone wanting to leave this capitalist hell and just enjoy a simple and normal life ? Then just defect to a socialist country ! Which socialist nation is better to live in ? Is it legally possible to defect here without being in trouble (I'm thinking of the DPRK) ? Share your tips and your experience regarding living in a socialist country and how it's different from living in a capitalist one. Is it better ? Is the difference in living conditions not too harsh ? I'm really interested in hearing about it, I myself want to leave my country to live a socialist nation.
Every days the situation gets worse and people are still oblivious to it. In my country, more and more social gains that were made by the workers movements are being slowly removed without anyone batting an eye. People are becoming passive and weak, look at neets and other similar casts, once upon a time these people would have fought for a revolution, now they just claim to "enjoy the coming chaos" while hypocritically and cowardly doing nothing except continuing to consume. All the persons I know are politically either far right racists or brainlets "leftists" idealists that claim to know better than every single worker movements ever made. These people will side at any given time with the US because of the "authoritarian" nature of socialist states, as if it were any better here. Every time I try to educate them about socialism and socialist countries, to at least give them a balanced view on things, they tell me that I'm brainwashed (at this point the irony of this is killing me inside) or that I'm "creepy" for being against the foreign invasion of these countries. I don't have any hope for a revolution in the West right now or in the future (at least for this century), I don't see any reasons to stay here and rot like a little shit.
The neo-liberals are going to try to destroy every socialist countries there is. Their dream is of a world with free flow of Labor and Capital, every countries becoming the same generic bland liberal """democratic""" state with a consumerist way of life as seen in Europe, North America and East Asia. They want to divide the world accordingly to production, each country specializing in various sector to increase global efficiency. They think that poverty and shitty industrial jobs are going to magically disappear in the South like they did in the North, that mankind will unite through trade and that we will be saved by technological progress. To do this they will need to have access to every possible market in the world and that include currently socialist countries that refuse to let go of their already shrinking socialized sectors. The accusation of authoritarianism against socialist countries are merely a rationalization of this neo-liberal mindset and serves as a justification for imperialism that is the driving force behind the establishment of this global world order. For these reasons, the remaining socialist countries of the world are going to be pressured like never before to open up their market to foreign capital and to abandon democratic centralism and vanguardism. The more we consume here in the West and the more we work here, the more we feed that international capitalist machinery. Even the supposed "drain" on society that are neets are consuming goods and thus re-injecting money into the economy and contributing to it. If we want to really be consistent in our fight against capitalism, we must help the socialist countries of the world, promote their cooperation to counter the capitalist international division of production, and support every worker movement there is. I'd even go as far as say that supporting anti-globalist and sympathetic fascists like Pol Pot or Saddam Hussein is better than supporting any sort of liberal democratic movement as these movement will help us countering the international capitalist hegemony.
I started this thread because I'm thinking of leaving my country to work for a Socialist one and help protect it, there are multiple choices, but I'd prefer to work in a closed country like the DPRK so I'm not reminded of degenerate capitalist consumerism and Western propaganda. Even if living conditions are worse in these nations because of the international effort to destroy them, it will still be better for me and probably many other to know that they at least work for the betterment of the socialist cause and that their efforts are not in vain. In these countries, people are free from the constant alienation that has overtaken our Western societies. Late stage capitalism is not a thing here, people have genuine hobbies and aren't prone to mindless attention-seeking. Their mind is free roam in their head without being constantly bombarded with useless information and stimulants. If you want to know what I mean, look at the street of Pyongyang, there are no advertisement here, there is no need for it since people only need their primary need and nothing else. Even the cowardly defectors that goes to South Korea admit it : life is simpler in the North. (Relevant videos : youtube.com/watch?v=QkgLUw7CvK8 and youtube.com/watch?v=B_i8_WuyqAY )
I don't have anything to lose by leaving the West, the only thing that is preventing me to leave right now is that I need to finish my studies. I want to learn Economics, Mathematics and Computer Sciences so I can follow the footsteps of Paul Cockshott and help the Socialist countries to adopt modern planned economies that are efficient and reactive to foreign threats. I'm learning new knowledge to hopefully one day help the advancement of the socialist cause and bring upon the end of capitalism, even if I don't live long enough to see it, that's my only dream.
Eli Bell
If I had any engineering or farming skills I'd absolutely consider defecting to Cuba
Dylan Jones
I've thought about leaving the USA. I think it's just a plain fact that life is better in some other countries. Real communities where you make friends with your neighbors, care about each other, work honestly, and don't have to deal with bloodthirsty freaks every day. No driving 40 minutes in your cagemobile to work. No constant anxiety over dumb shit.
But I'm concerned that it's not really possible to escape the USA's terror. If you move to a socialist country (somehow evading US law and convincing them that you're not a spy), then you live in a country that is a constant target of regime change, sanctions, war… Or even if you just move to any non-NATO country. Nearly everywhere is capitalist. Socdem countries are seeing a resurgence of fascism, they're NATO-allied, and they're cutting benefits. Vietnam seems pretty comfy though. Or like, Bolivia.
Jose Hall
what does that map with red and green even mean? p sure it isn't poverty
Levi Scott
Looks like the "economic freedom" map to me.
Brandon Price
How do you prove you're not a spy to the DPRK if you decide to defect? I'm sure they will suspect it.
Nathan Sanders
just enjoy the first world while it lasts. life is too short to do otherwise.
Hudson Phillips
Give them your phone and spread your buttcheeks.
Isaac Martin
I can't
Carson Campbell
???
If you want to move to the DPRK you better be a nuclear physicist or a botanist.
Lincoln Perry
Yes please, move to North Korea. I’m going to laugh when I read the inevitable news story involving your untimely demise in a labor camp.
Jonathan Robinson
The "Economic Freedom Index", which that is a map of, is little more than a score of how much the Heritage Foundation likes your country. I've never seen much consistency to their scores beyond this. They'll attack some one country's welfare state policies, but turn around and praise some tax haven country with an equally large welfare state.
But, yeah, the West and Saudi Arabia have always been strange bedfellows and neoliberal "institutes" regularly slag off the Saudis.
Adrian Gonzalez
Wonder why they didn’t give America a dark green? Is it because of Amtrak?
Adrian Jenkins
There's probably a slew of issues they're salty about that keeps Burgerland from being dark green. Keep in mind that the Heritage Foundation is an American conservative thinktank, and very obviously don't think the United States is nearly neoliberal enough.
Connor Jones
Mmh, defecting sometimes I've think about it (Cuba would be my preferred choice, spanish is my first lenguage and all that) but what I would like more would be volunteering in the case a civil war started in Venezuela.
John Gomez
Also now rephrasing a bit, it wouldn't really be defecting cause my country has no beef with Cuba. So just moving there.
Camden James
Doesn't Cuba have a shortage of janitors and shit because too many people became physicians? I'm already a janitor here, I'd do it there in a heartbeat.
Cuba is miles better than the DPRK lol. If the embargo were lifted that place would be even better. Moving there before the lift the sanctions (which would probably only happen if Sanders was elected…and that's a big maybe on top of that). Might get worse with climate change though.
Brody Wood
Why not just study at a North Korean university? You should also be studying the language now too.
Josiah Rodriguez
I'm assuming you speak spanish right?
Nicholas Ross
"News"
Jackson Lee
kek
Ryder Long
You are way overembellishing the living conditions in the DPRK. I support their right to self-determination and nuclear weapons program to deter US invasion, but their labour conditions are lousy by European standards and their economy is still crippled by sanctions. The USSR and Yugoslavia in their final years had better labour conditions than the DPRK today.
Trust me, you wouldn't. DPRK, like most other countries, is a credentialist society that does not accept "defectors" that easily. They will demand that you have at least a bachelor's degree, or they will detain you for who knows how long and later deport you. If they somehow manage to accept you into their society and clear you of being a potential CIA informant, be ready and willing to adapt to their 6 days per week working standards. Like the South Koreans, Japanese, and Chinese, they are workaholics. Just because the DPRK has a planned economy does not mean they have abandoned Confucianist values that still plague East Asia. I have a ton of criticisms of "Western Marxism" but its humanism pushed by socialists and social democrats has brought labour rights to much of continental Europe that much of the rest of the world, especially Asia and USA, could only dream of.
I like Cockshott but he is a utopian whose ideas only apply in a hypothetical, future, industralised first-world country (ie. has total abundance of productive forces, resources, infrastructure, fully educated populace) that has undergone a proletarian revolution, is not under any sanctions, and where every class division (in both the political and business worlds) has somehow vanished and everyone willing to work together in unison for a common communist cause with no disagreements. "Towards a New Socialism" is not taken seriously in Cuba, Venezuela, Vietnam and China. His ideas completely ignore existing geopolitics and domestic political realities. Read Left-Wing Communism: an Infantile Disorder ( marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1920/lwc/ ). Focus on the maths, comp sci, IT, physical sciences, maybe learn some foreign languages like Spanish and Mandarin, forget economics, no government will take you seriously if you aren't at least a PhD.
Which country are you from? You can live decently (non-luxuriously) in Mexico if you can save up $50-70k USD. You can find 2-3-bedroom houses for $25k (not near coast or in major city) and their temporary residency visa requirement to prove financial solvency last I checked is only $25k in investments or bank balance statements. An extra $8-20k can get you a small solar panel installation, gardening supplies and/or a used car/truck.
Daniel Bell
Good effortpost, but I got a question, of all those countries you mention which don't take TANS seriously, why wouldn't China? China not only is very well industrialized, but they pretty much fill all those requirements you mentioned (and aren't sanctioned to hell.) If the chinese government truly were socialist, wanting to establish socialism (and later on communism), shouldn't they at least consider Cockshott's ideas?
Eli Allen
China does take cockshott seriously, which is why his book is banned there.
Andrew Bell
His proposals for planning software and labor credits only require the revolution. Cuba could pull it off right now, for instance. The computational power needed is very cheap, even phone processors (which all countries have access to) can do it. No aspect of cybernetic economic planning requires massive wealth, advanced production (beyond access to computers and networking, it can be done even in a largely agrarian economy), "first world" conditions, lack of sanctions, or "vanished" class division. The only condition really is the capability to fight for and defend the system.
The latter three are market economies, of course they are not going to suddenly implement cybercommunism. This doesn't mean his proposals aren't "taken seriously" by anyone in any of those countries. His basic planning software matches Marx's proposals in Capital Vol 2 and COTGP, so any party that upholds those is taking at least some part of TANS seriously by default.
I do agree that Cockshott's proposals about democracy and political praxis are a lot more utopian. He's also deficient on international trade theory and a number of other things. I think his decision to bundle the planning system with definite schemes for democracy in TANS was a mistake.
No it's not. He never said it's banned there.
Isaiah Perez
The DPRK has a five day work week and a 8 hour day. No idea where you get your information from.
David Myers
maybe he's a fedposter
Chase Campbell
this
Adrian Sanders
First off all it would need to somehow make the small porky wing of CPC agree to this, then it would need to somehow justify that action to other nations in the world.
For the moment I'm hesitating between studying Chinese or Korean.
Source ? Even then, I think it's worth it.
I think you over-estimate how things are going on in Europe right now. Most if not all the Western """Marxists""" have become social liberals and there is currently a major push toward anti-union anti anti-labor rights reforms.
I mostly agree, but I think his ideas can be implemented once we get rid of the capitalists threat and most country in the world have reached a good enough level of developpement.
I'm planning to get a PhD in Economy, else I wouldn't be studying it.
Lol no thanks, I don't want to live in a trashy capitalist country. I want to help the cause of Socialism, not contribute to its demise by staying apathetic in a random shithole.
Why would they put me in a labor camp if I did nothing wrong ? I think you read too much Western propaganda.
Source ?
I do believe there is still a chance with China, if by 2050 they haven't made any step back toward becoming socialist again, then it will be for sure that they have really become a bastion of the reaction.
I don't think so, my only fear is that they don't like Westerner like me.
What are my tips for those who want to have a good shoot at living in a socialist country? 1. Speak the language 2. Be STEMM. Same advice as with a non-socialist country.
Do you or anybody else here have any sources with details about working conditions? I'm sure the following doesn't count anything for the "Freedom Index", but I bet they have some guaranteed minimum in terms of vacation days plus national holidays exceeding what exists in the US. >Read Left-Wing Communism: an Infantile Disorder Have you? Can you relate a section of that to something by Cockshott or is this some meme response?
