are there good moral reasons against investing in stocks that can be used to persuade slightly left leaning liberals/moderates?
Are there good moral reasons against investing in stocks that can be used to persuade slightly left leaning...
Other urls found in this thread:
It's not real economy.
specific stocks, yeah. if you invest in military industrial shit, you deserve to die. but otherwise, it is kind of irrelevant if you invest. lots of proles have retirement funds invested in stocks
most people should avoid investing in stocks though, daytrading is a meme. if you don't have access to one of the live feeds, programs that analyze shit for you, and lots of money, then you are just wasting time and putting your money at risk. you are NOT going to beat the market and you WILL get fucked by bad decisions.
investing in indexes and bonds can be safe though.
oh yeah and Marx speculated on the stock market, he got pissed off though because he lost a lot of money lmao
the only immoral thing about stocks is division between day trading and gambling - there is no real difference.
why would you need to convince liberals using morality to not buy stocks
just tell them they'll lose all their money, which they probably will
Morality is a spook faggot
the reason investors will be shot
i cant decide how we handle people who have meme investments through their job i guess we shouldnt shoot them
also i have like $5 of penny stocks i used to explore how the stock market worked for research purposes, we probably shouldn't shoot me, probably…
You are petty bourgeois and deserve to be shot.
All of it is fictional capital, which means you are not buying physical objects that have use-value, which means all of it, without exception is gambling.
The stock market is a zero sum game, for somebody to win somebody else has to loose, If you are entering the game now, you are going to be the moron whose loss is going to feed the gains of others, that entered the game earlier and hence have a "higher temporal ground".
You'd need enormous amounts of money to buy all the high-tech services to even have a theoretical chance. Realistically the only reason to buy stocks is if you have insider information and can effectively conceal this or are in a position to be exempt from legal persecution, because insider trading is illegal. This is a rigged game and the only way to not loose is cheating, if you can't do this, don't play stocks.
The financial stuff, you buy is claim to future physically wealth. The current exchange value of your fictional capital, represents the relative share on all the physically existing wealth in commodity form. So what matters is how the exchange value of your fictional capital compares to that of all the other people's fictional capital, in the finance casino.
There is far more fictional capital that acts as claim to wealth then there is actual wealth, so this is likely to behave like a game of musical chairs. A Compounding factor is that fictional capital is growing faster then the physical wealth produced by the real economy. So for you to not loose wealth with this, the exchange value of your fictional capital has to grow for it to represent a stable share of physical wealth.
Now there is the potential for finance crashes, if such a thing happens it becomes a political battle about whose fictional capital is secured by state violence and whose is not. So you need to have political influence on governments to be able to use financial services, or risk being the one without a chair when the music stops. This represents the class divide is in the financial casino.
Those have low risk, but they aren't entirely safe.
-Buying government bonds is a speculation that governments can pay back their debts. With this you are becoming a creditor for government debt, and your interests will alight with rightwing politics that yells about government spending. Unless of course you can produce a virtuous money cycle, where you buy bonds and the government spending is directed into you pockets, allowing you to buy more bonds.
-Buying an index fund is only advisable if you can buy the dip, and sell the peak, of a macro boom bust cycle, remember all of this this is gambling, you can never get emotionally attached to this or you will be lost. Apparently index-funds are "worse than Marxism": bloomberg.com
There is another material reality: people look at the finance graphs and numbers and behave in semi predictable ways: "If your number goes up keep doing what your are doing, if your number goes down do something else". Consequently there is a massive battle going on to be able to manipulate the numbers and graphs people see on their screens and paper-printouts. This includes a battle for "mental-territory" to get people to look at your numbers and graphs as behavioural queues, rather than somebody else's, which has some parallel to religions fighting for disciples. This is a crude and destructive skinner-box, the overwhelming mass of people find it psychologically intolerable to allocate more than a small amount of their time and effort to this, and prefer to allocate most of their time and effort to something that is labled meaning. The neo-liberal system is basically destroying human bodies and minds to briefly force more human time and effort into their box. Given that economy is about humans, it's likely that it will be replaced by a system that doesn't destroy it's host.
Not true.. speculation fuels innovation which increases purchasing power. Look how the dot com bubble led to cheaper broadband. Before 2000 DSL was rare and expensive.. and now it's like 10 times as fast and cheaper so the speculation helped everyone.
Look how bitcoin has turbo charged black markets and the privacy industry and increased the sophistication of the TOR network among other things
Look how Tulip mania established the netherlands as the largest producers of tulips to do this day.. are you butthurt that there are workers that get to chill and plant and sell tulips to support themselves just because they benefited from speculation?
yeah apparently that's what the politburo thought when they were "planning" (speculating) the crop strategy of ukraine in the 1930s……………………..
because you are totally not a Zig Forums neet larper?
i guess they should have been better at making bets??? everything is a gamble if you think about it
trotsky had to speculate whether it was the right time to revolt…
It's wrong by historical records. You better step up your shitposting game.
ive read leftist's summaries of marx
have you read capitalists's summaries of capitalism?
if you are really serious instead of just trying to show off how big your left wing is wouldn't you want to investigate your enemy's theories:
yeah because the USSR's records are so reliable? Hmm would they have any incentive to lie about their own mistakes? There are plenty of other examples, most recently price control in venezuela leading to numerous shortages, infamously with dairy farmers and milk. I believe they started making more cheese as a result.
or what? youre going to larp about a revolution youre never going to take part in and keep serving as a useful idiot/boogeyman for the neoliberal police state?
all human action is larping tovarisch
sometimes things get out of hand
yeah because he didn't accurately predict the great depression?
i guess youre too pussy to investigate your enemy huh? Oh well I'll keep investigating you.. (because im a more worthy opponent)
that's a good fucking question
you mean the great depression that the ussr didn't have?
Jokes on you. I'm going to become the chairman of European Socialist Union, and I'm going to have my harlem full of blond cuties with big round boobies.
umm no sweety actions are literally the opposite of larping
what you are doing is not "action" in any sense of the word unless you are talking about the action of the keys going up and down on your keyboard
yeah they just had millions of people being killed stalin instead.. SUCH A BETTER STANDARD OF LIVING!!!!!!!
Might that have anything to do with the invention of antibiotics around the same time?
i hope so because you sound incompetent and easy to corrupt
The capitalist economies have even spoken about that. See first comment (reddit.com
give me a source that isn't robert conquest
And the industrial development in the USSR was the reason why people were able to get those antibiotics in the first place, not to mention the improvement of the food supply through collectivization and mechanization.
You can give your wife (if you had one, lol) already to me.
Lets say tomorrow is the revolution, people have decided their immediate existence is in danger and so the only option is to desperately revolt.
How will they go about doing this? What will steer their actions? What will make them even realize they can do this, when all their lives they have lived relatively mundane existences within a somewhat stable society?
They will remember the stories, they will call up what they think you do in this situation, and start pretending to be those people, because they are not any of those things, not yet. The larping becomes real only after the larp, and then the person is changed.
Zizeck admits it in his oxford lecture thing
meanwhile the west industrialized without gulags.. hmm i wonder which was better?
and the united states during the depression was still better than the ussr even when you ignore the gulags and totalitarianism, and ESPECIALLY if you're not a pussy that is able to make opportunities for yourself, SUCH AS SMUGGLING BOOZE HEHEHEHHEHE
meanwhile now even the shittiest of dirt niggers can get antibitiocs as they cost literally pennies a pill and the only thing stopping them is SOCIALIST CRONY PHARMACEUTICAL "REGULATIONS"
meanwhile milloins of people were forced to starve to death in ukraine while the little bits of food they were able to grow were stolen from them and sent to moscow and leningrad
how about you just suck my big faggot dick you nigger?
but there wont be.. would you like make a wager through cryptocurrency escrow site? I will bet whatever you are willing to bet there will not be a communist revolution in the next 5-10 years.
literal justification for sitting around daydreaming like a fairy.. and the sad part is that i see you here all the time and this is a major part of your life and has been for a long time :(
yellow vests cant even seize means of production.. they let these things fizzle out just like the occupy "movement" (millennial larp)
there is no such thing. revolutions are not caused by ideas but necessity, we call them wrong historically, they should be named after the systems that get overthrown by them. People have never revolved out of want, but only when they had no other choice.
"The revolutionary is a doomed man" has a double meaning, he is only revolting as he is already doomed
There is no reason to expect them to do anything, they have beds to go home to and food to eat
cool so you are literally here fantasizing and wanting human suffering and disaster while unironically blaming property owners for "exploitation" just because you are such a loser that's the only thing that you can imagine giving you purpose in life… selfish
youre no different than the accelerationism faggots on Zig Forums who worship the mosque shooter and want terrorism to increase so that people feel like electing nationalist leaders
Go home Peterson.
It industrialized with people ending up in machines and working 12 hour, if not more, workdays.
That's kinda funny seeing the US's healthcare, arguably one of most capitalist oriented one, is the most expensive one.
C O P E
but where is the SOURCE motherfucker
but with forcible land appropriation, colonization, slavery, forced prison labor, horrific work conditions, and all the rest, taking several times longer than the USSR did. also, in that the USSR's main industrial and agricultural output was from non-inmate workers, and they had a proportion of gulag inmates comparable to modern-day USA prisons.
exactly and the next major recession wont take that away from enough of them to cause a mad max scenario.. enough people are hedged and the establishment will give people just enough so that they don't get too desperate
and more importantly there is already infrastructure in place so that when they fully out print the dollar and euro cryptocurrency will take its place.. you think they haven't planned this?
There are no wants, or aught to bes, only historical inevitability. The current system will collapse, already it shows signs, things will get worse. Eventually enough will get worse for enough people that they revolt. This has nothing to do with us, this happens regardless. Our purpose is to be aware of what is going on beforehand, prepare, and try to mitigate the destabilization afterwards.
The plans of idealists always fail because
I wish porky planned at least something. The fuck is going to kill himself one day because of his neglect of the economy.
those people shouldn't have been born in the first place if their families were so poor they had to resort to that and even then all those workers were digging in the fucking dirt before that and they accepted those jobs voluntarily and because there were less regulations the companies could actually pay people what they were able to make at a reasonable pace instead of now where if you cant make 15 dollars an hour washing dishes as fast as the fastest mexican you cant work.. ie id rather get paid 5 dollars an hour to work at my own pace than be under intense pressure for 15 dollars an hour because those 15 dollars an hour positions will still be there and i have more options without regulation
but h-h-h-hey that's why communism helps working conditions right??? It's not like late stage communist CHINA has to put suicide nets in their places of work… oh that's right they do and actually most of the those workers are happy to work there and they get daily naps and they dont have to deal with customers so it's really not that bad and labor only accounts for 5 percent of the cost of an iphone and automation is getting more sophisticated so we could still have cheap electronics without exploiting COMMUNIST SLAVE LABOR
IT MIGHT BE CAPITALIST, which is a meme word invented by jews and usually described ironically socialist crony statist nepotism, but it's sure as fucking hell not fucking free market because you have to pay 18 different people BECAUSE OF JEW SOCIALIST REGULATIONS just for a 50 cent pill. There are 50 dollar cheeseburgers and 1 dollar cheeseburgers and the healthcare system uses the state to force people to only have access to 50 dollar cheeseburgers. If there were no prohibtions on drugs and medicine you could easily get most common medicines for PENNIES
Go to fucking mexico if you get sick you pay 50 cents for 14 days of pencillin or sulfa which are the antibiotics stalin was able to manufacturer and even more advanced antibiotics are still relatively cheap THANKS TO FREE MARKETS
i told you he said it at the oxford thing but im too lazy to find the place in the video so just google it
the point is that even the most famous leftist has to admit what really happened.. YOU ARE THE EQUIVALENT OF A HOLOCAUST DENIER.. you don't sound exactly like /pol?/
kinda like how stalin stole all the czech farms and forced them into ghetto collectives? kinda like how the sioux stole land from the pawnee and lakota?
the USSR wasn't magically perfect by ww2 and the industrial revolution happened on an even greater scale and it was THE largest and fastest growth ever sustained and our economy is still growing and our purchasing power is still increasing rapidly.. you are literally reading this on the most powerful means of production that markets made affordable, the computer
and even if the soviets' growth was marginally faster by a decade or two that doesn't mean it was qualitatively better considering at any moment you could be arrested on trumped up charges for doing things that are basic human nature like storing food or criticizing the establishment… marx was only able to publish his book because of FREEDOM.. if marx had been trying to publish a book criticizing the stablishment in the USSR he would have bene gulaged.. so you should be thankful for free markets??? How does that feel?
still better than their other options or else they wouldnt have done it
that's a blatant lie.. it was many times more and more proportionally than nazi germany which you REee about so often and the US prison system is mainly filled with drug crimes and drug prohibition is demonstrably not a free market policy and a socialist nepotistic one so it's just more evidence that government control sucks and two wrongs dont make a right
not any time soon.. but yeah keep counting on external factors to fix your life you fucking loser
youre actively HOPING for disaster just like on Zig Forums
EXACTLY WHY COMMUNIST CENTRALIZED SYSTEMS SUCK FUCKING DICK
the road to hell is paved with good intentions and im perfectly willing to accept the most practical solution which is making state ineffective at conducting violence to the minimum point required for the masses to have stability and then everyone focusing on improving their own life situation and avoiding the po pos
we plan all the time by making BETS on what we think people are going to do in their own interest instead of deluding ourselves that we can play god and bend people over their backs to what we think is good for them
The rate of investment in risky technological improvements has decreased with financialisation, because most investors are risk averse, and long term pursuits of technological advances has almost stopped do to investor impatience, also the financial sector is causing a brain drain for other sectors.
While i like blockchain, flowers and privacy , i don't care much for black markets, paywalled or skill-walled privacy and the bitcoin-specific energy footprint.
Speculation with food, will not prevent crop failures, because you can't pay nature for a good harvest, and the outcome will be that low income people could be priced out of the market and starve. For the historical record the planed economies in the 20 century all produced food security where there was none previously, you can't say this for market economies, the most food secure regions on earth also have the most government interference in food markets.
Do you realise that money is the dystopian points system pictured in scifi, where lack of points means exclusion and/or death.
Do you seriously think the entire infrastructure was built by 2 million prisoners and the rest 150 millions were doing fucking nothing?
Also fun fact, there's more people doing prison labor in US right now than gulag at its peak, giving porkies ultra profits.
I put like 20k into amazon a year ago
20% return so far
Those are nets on private companies property. SOE don't have any suicide nets.
I haven't got a clue. This either means that the prices of Iphones are much, much higher than their production cost (of course they are), or that the materials which Iphones are made of are really expensive. Materials which - let me remind you - majority of the costs come from wages (labor).
Glad you are beginning to realize this fellow comrade.
It's kinda true though. Majority of construction in the 40s was done by the gulag system.
Big corporations plan their own operations, but the economy as a whole is unplanned, chaotic and shortsighted. If you've been paying attention for the last twenty years, you'd notice that this selfish shortsightedness is hurling our species towards ecological and climate catastrophe, and you're not only defending this (with the usual nonsensical arguments we've heard thousands of times before, no less), but proudly partaking in it. Think about this for two seconds:
1. We're a conscious, intelligent species that is actively ruining its only habitat.
2. This happens under capitalism.
3. How do you stop this without conscious and effective political decision-making over the economy? (i.e., how do you force an uncoordinated chaotic market economy to disregard their incentives to maximize profits in order to operate in a way that doesn't ruin our habitat?)
4. If 3 is possible in a capitalist economy, why are we still headed towards ecological disaster?
not necessarily true when compared to socialism where there is obvious stagnation and then why did the USSR innovate less and you have to pearl clutch to their shitt tin can rockets that killed a bunch of cosmonauts before yuri got lucky and landed one?
Why didnt the USSR come up with better computer technology? Why were their nuclear reactors not much better? Why did their genetic research suck butthole? Why did soviet robots look like movie props when cars where being made by robots in the west starting in the late 60s? THere's too many examples to list of where the west innovated brilliantly compared to the grey and drab coal mine hell of the soviet union. Most example sof soviet technological innovation were just demonstrations that they couldnt actually implement into industry and the west BTFO them after a few years regardless.
Speculation and entrepreneurship gives a great and demonstrably effective and practical way of incentivizes innovation and it places the risk firmly where it belongs on the innovator who also gets the reward if it works out.. instead of violently stealing from people in order to fulfill the delusion of the politburo?
because youre a bootlicking cuck.. you think it's good for another man to be able to tell you what you can buy and put into your own body? Why do you want another man to have control over your body? Are you homosexual?
it can incentivize hedges by rewarding those that bet against the crops..
—This next part is out there but i include it anyway even though ill admit it's not totally provable but as someone who day traded for awhile i have some experience and other people have echoed the same thing:
psychic phenomena is more prevalent on a collective decentralized scale and markets have an uncanny ability to predict future outcomes and synchronize with disasters.. there have been many instances where markets started to react to something before it happened…
futures were created so that farmers had a way of locking in profit and offloading some of the risk and this has the effect of bolstering the industry against black swan events and spreading the risk out so that individuals aren't as vulnerable and it stabilizes price.. this part is super provable and there are many papers written about it online if you want to read them but just fucking google it… to a small minded loser like yourself you might think the whole world is against you when prices are raised for some reason but you should be thankful that nature works in such a decentralized way and if you tried to have a single egotistical human do this instead of HAVING THE OPPORTUNITY to pay 10 dollars for a bottle of water there would be no water and you would die of thirst
also markets help protecc against disasters because when there is a shortage it becomes profitable for people with surplus to travel to the place with the shortages.. for example in hurricanes there are literally people who will bring water to places because they can double their money and in that way markets incentivize individuals to act in a way that benefits the whole system like a neural network… price hikes and so called price gouging act as a signal to the rest of the nodes that resources need to be reallocated
Ron Paul Talking about this:
if they are that vulnerable they shouldn't have been born in the first place and their parents can't be rewarded for being so irresponsible and if they were really unlucky and the community realizes that there will be people that take care of them VOLUNTARILY
look how FOOD AID has destroyed niggers in africa by incentivizing having children when you cant even provide for yourself… poverty has increased in africa since FOOD AID and it's because people who cant support themselves are still breeding
no it's discentivizing unnatural and unsustainable growth and it wont take any active violence but only stopping the incentives for having children when you are so poor you cant take of yourself… its way more practical than genocide and most commies admit they would have to kill a bunch of normies for a revolution anyway so because you are actively killing people that makes you worse.. if you wanted to be as angelic as possible you would have voluntarily funded social safety nets but require the people that take from them submit to birth control and it's only because of government intervention that we don't have access to better birth control.. the socialist government is protecting the hormonal birth control socialist socialist crony socialist pharmaceutical industry
no because it's not some oppresive marxist regime like china deciding the parameters of that point system but rather just basic fucking OWNERSHIP and that ownership is abstracted by currency or credit or some other thing but it's just literally do you have ownership or control of something or can you leverage the control or access to something, such as a computer system.
If you build a spess station out of interstellar dust or convert energy from the big bang into matter to build it then is every other human and alien in the universe automatically entitled to their equal fraction of it? That is how retarded your logic is. "muh clays" are just fucking boundaries of control that you can acquire through leverage… the sioux took clay from the lakota so then their territory was up for grabs by your logic that you should be able to take property that was already "stolen" and that property has been stewarded for generations and it's not practical to rewind all the transactions back just like when there is a hack with bitcoin it's impractical to rewind the block chain even tho some fags call for it.
Property agreements are just that, agreements, and the market has agreed that the current ownerships should be respected, and they can be negotiated but i think you are negotiating in the least productive way possible and you will achieve nothing with leftism except empowering the neoliberal police state. If you want to take land from someone then no one will want to do business with you, or at least anyone with any actual standing in today's market because you are not doing polite business.. humans can follow basic protocalswhen it comes to interactions such as not farting in public and not stealing and not murdering are the most basic forms of that and only governments and organized crime tend to subvert that.
the universe is inherently ownership based. Computer systems can be inherently programmed to be only accessed by password holders so it's reasonable to assume there are almost infinite amount of matrix like alien worlds controlled by individuals with PASSWORDS who function as the property owner of that matrix nested universe. DEAL WITH IT
Swallow a black cock
um sweety youre off by an order of magnitude
You have to be such a fucking kool aid drinker to think that there was significantly less than nazi german prison labour and at least as many people DIED in those camps than the nazis and farr less die than in american prisons
the point is that communists are FORCED to do labor instead of having a choice of who they work for otherwise they get toilet duty and if they cant or dont want to scrub toilets they get gulaged.. lenin wrote so much and called inefficient workers insects that had to be squashed… in a free market you get to just live in a van down by the river and someone will probably be nice enough to feed you anyways
cool so you are presenting this as negative even though it's not true but it shows that you value freedom from imprisonment but at the same time communists acknowledge that any revolution will be bloody and prisons are needed in their system to keep workers working
i guess communism is no better than neoliberal police states? (it's far worse)
nazi germany was a much more pleasant place to live in ww2 and it was easier to avoid getting ann franked than gulaged
also I THINK IT'S BAD THAT AMERICA HAS ANY NON VIOLENT PRISONERS… MY WHOLE POINT IS THERE NEEDS TO BE LESS AUTHORITARIAN VIOLENCE
look at china.. THAT IS LATE STAGE COMMUNISM
notice how it's very fucking similar to the EU and America with the surveillance system and internet censorship and nepotism and corruption… the point is that they arrived at the same place from two different ends of the spectrum so it shows there is a kind of authoritarian/free-market average that countries approach no matter which end of the spectrum they start from
my advocacy is for technology that allows us to subvert authoritarian violence, mostly the surveillance and censorship area, and tip the balance of power more towards free markets so that states are mostly ineffectual but still there is just enough stability without a total mad max full retard revolution like you faggots want which is the same fuckign thing that most of hte Zig Forums niggers want
ron paul on the gradual evolution that is already occurring:
notice how bloody the october "revolution" (more like regression) was but then when the soviet union went to markets it wasnt nearly as bad and when china accepted markets the standard of living rose almost as fast as in the 19th century ;)
The same amount of people died in the first year of Yeltsin's capitalist transition as in 1930's famine.
Not to mention wars and ethnic fucking cleansings breaking out, and all of ex-USSR being ruled by mobster for 10 years.
Such a painless transition, really small price to pay for "freedom"
You are mixing up profits from production with profits made on stock speculation.
Here's how it works:
- If you get dividends from a stock, you are getting profits from production.
- If you make a profit by buying low and selling high, you are profiting from someone else's loss. Zero sum.
- The total division of stock market funds to companies represents the social division of labor.
- Increased allocation of funds to a company through the stock market CAN improve fundamentals (material reality of production) but will overshoot by a significant margin, bringing about a correction.
You understand that most "leftists" are full of shit liberals, right? You can't just read summaries of Marx. You need to actually read Marx.
What if someone started a fund where anyone could donate and the pooled money would be used to do things like slowly buy stocks and then sell all at once to destabilize the market? I dont know anything about economics
already happens naturally in the stock market
And you quite literally skipped over every other possible stat in that wiki to "validate" yourself
You'll be in the gulag mate