Is getting a college degree worth it if you're a pleb? I understand there are differences like in Yurop college is free but not in the US and it seems like a giant waste of time.

Also what are your thoughts on paying off student loans. For example I dodged college and work a shitty pleb job but most of the co-workers are also college fags have debt and still didnt get a decent job. Since I dodged the college bullet I feel I'm being punished for making non retarded decisions if Bernard just decides to wave all college debt.

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If you don't have a BSc you are underclass and will be crushed by the academic professional class in their revolution.

Unironically gearing my degree to go into labour organising atm, feels good man.

The education is genuinely good. It's good for your sanity to, for once, be in an environment where you are rewarded for learning, surrounded by people who also want to learn. However, the actual content of your education is elsewhere for cheap/free online and in books; school doesn't have a monopoly on that. The environment is nice, but it's not worth the amount of debt you'll go into. If you have a mental deficiency where you literally can't learn without a teacher or some social element. that's the only way I could recommend college in the current state of things.

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fucking bullshit i went and am still a virgin go die hedonists

Your salty emotions betray you. Clearly you aren't mad about hedonism, you're mad you can't indulge in it too.

It's pointless to try and jump in, the time for recruitment was decades ago. Now if you're not invited into the academic class, you're wasting your time trying to get in.

You don't get anything in this system unless you're allowed to have it. That's how it works for almost everyone. So many academics and people who succeed in the system either don't know or don't want to think about how much their life is outside of their control. And really, your life is basically determined before you're 10 years old, and you're given a caste assignment that you really can't escape from (and it's surprisingly difficult to be kicked out, there are some terrible failures that remain in managerial positions just to uphold the caste system in principle).

Obviously if you had any sped your life is basically over, but I doubt that is the case for you. Probably better to pick up some sort of skilled trade you can ply if possible, or learn on your own time and forget about the Academy. (You can't get the credential, but you might be able to fake for long enough to impress who you need to impress to get by.)

Also lol if people think education has anything to do with learning, or that learning is rewarded in this system. The universities are basically a social club and an excuse to party, and if you're not in the social clubs, you're mostly wasting your time.
I don't know how anyone learns in that environment. I'm brainlet and being in school actually retarded me more than just picking up a book and learning what I can on my own (which is the only way I ever learned anything, since school went out of its way to refuse to teach me anything).

Same, majoring in heath admin and labour law.
>mfw salting them workers

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Lads Im not from the US but I've been invited a few times to drink the coolaid. Should I join comrades and salt the top 10%

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There's no way I'd go to university in America.
Getting chased by bounty hunters, or killed by drones when you miss a debt repayment isn't worth it.

Yeah, but collage in the US is often very hypercompitive.

this is why I'm skeptical of waving their debt. You still get to keep all the networking your credential and your high caste status the credential brings. Its essentially reparations for middle class millenials. I'll only agree to removing the debts on condition that your high caste credential is also taken away

I don't see the differnce.

This. Fuck Europe where the middle class gets even more free gibs.

It pretty much has to be waived though, because the debt is unpayable. (And this is where a revolution would come from; the lower classes don't have a say whatsoever, not even the small say they had during the liberal revolutions.)
The thing is the universities are running a scam. If you're well connected you got the money to pay off the debt, and if you're not well connected your credential is useless and effectively stripped from you. There's something to be said about an education system which fails ~80% of the population by design.
What bothers me more is that the universities are bailed out and keep their system in place where failure is determined at a young age, and that's what they're really trying to preserve more than anything else (and that's why eventually they will succeed, though it may require a "revolution" to do so, where capitalism is formally replaced by their "meritocracy" and a formalized caste system).

Doing polsci and a language (won't say which, too identifying). Hoping to use that language to work as a translator for a union based right next to my uni.

maybe wusswuss was right about the unions

Just make it free but close half of them and make conditions for entry only available to actually smart motherfuckers. Rich people will still get preferential treatment but now they will have to invest into their child's education and not just reserve a spot for him in the ivy league because their rich parents also went there. All the debt we have is essentially unplayable all the boomer debt and war debt will never be paid either and those will take priority. They still actually got the education and the networking tho s waving their debt is just a reward for being retarded but if they wave their debt and take their high status credential then that would be doable

Difference being that you're a "hedonist" (hedonism has completely lost all meaning, the first hedonists were extremely modest) too, just a shitty one.

Yeah I'm sorry I don't have that fancy education. I just really hate these prntentious qoutes from those smug celebs everyone loves to worship.

Hell yeah dude! I imagine you have to hide your power level in polsci? its has to be fairly incognito like that in the law/business faculty, not so much in health science faculty, different breeds.

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Fug, cant even ellipses right. Good luck with those grades bucko!

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That itself is the kind of institution I'm fighting against. I don't care so much about the money or debt, I care about the institution itself imposing a hierarchy on the whole population, one which is often at odds with anything like actual merit or the output of the educated worker. Nor do I believe in education as some sort of necessary step in self-actualization or any such nonsense like that.

I would prefer straight repudiation of the debt, and tell the universities they submit to new rules or die. Ultimately they need to be subordinated to the people, rather than the other way around. But there's no base from which that social change can be made, because everyone is angling to become part of the system rather than overthrow it, even the people in the Low. The best you could do is agitate members of the lower and middle strata of the educated class to attack the people above them, and then double-cross those people and deny them absolute political power, and that would be unstable because it is quite impossible to get away from the material power of skilled labor.
In the long run we probably just need a wholly different notion of what it means to get an education, and that hasn't even been remotely conceivable until very recently; and you'd still have to contend with disparities in the ability of people, and the reality that the functions educated people can do in labor are relevant to any system of political economy. In short, people do not want to give up the privileges they have and actually be forced to do what their governments are officially supposed to do. That's not how political power and institutions work, institutions always exist to perpetuate themselves before doing what we built them to supposedly do.

As a matter of course, I believe access to learning materials should be as free as possible, and that there needs to be a large library of sorts concerned with the distribution of these materials in an effective manner. A worthwhile education system would focus on universal literacy as the goal, rather than building some system where privileged students are praised and promoted in a caste system and the rest of the student body is there to be drilled into soldiering, or for the speds their function is to sit there and be targets of public humiliation. But, such a system would be too obviously decent and functional, and would threaten the institutional power of a lot of people. The system we have thrives on widespread ignorance, mythmaking, and bullshit.

Intellectually disabled* you ablest scum

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Classroom warfare now!

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There is no doubt that education, especially well chosen education, will in most cases lead you to better jobs and a better life. The fact that a few people you know chose badly for education or had other faults that stopped them from doing better doesn't change that fact.

Paying off existing student loans is a dumb promise though. It rewards those who have failed to be responsible and pay off their loans.

The correct socialist approach would be to provide income based grants to those attending university/college in the future, with particular focus on those programs needed by the country.

just have it like in the USSR. smart mofos get selected and picked out to go to university and college and the state provides for their education dumber mofos get to go free trade schools and mofos even dumber than that get to go to into the army sweep the floors mine some shit in Siberia etc

nice social darwinism

99% of people with debt are prols. Rich kids have their parents pay off their debt.

it's not if everyone starts off from the same baseline. The USSR had their own version of affirmative action for poor regions and poor republics obviously.

hi porky, but for real, going to University and studying involves doing labor. You have to spend time to learn. So making people pay to do labor is fucking stupid.

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Something like that is a reason why a lot of the working class and educated middle weren't terribly invested in the Soviet system by the end. They believed that capitalism would reward people who thought they deserved more than they were getting, and some of those people got in with the oligarchs once Yeltsin rose and Putin rose.

Labor socialism had its time, before generalized universal education systems proliferated throughout the world and the country, but once those systems are firmly planted, neither socialism nor democracy in any meaningful form can last very long. It's just the unfortunate nature of political power and institutions playing out.
The revolution happens when capitalism can no longer give the educated middle class what they were promised, and not before. The revolutions in Russia and China make more sense if they are understood as state-capitalist revolutions that used socialist rhetoric to bring in some of the poor, that were attempting to "build socialism" but ran into the inevitable problems of institutional power asserting itself. The USSR and China can build state capitalism and in the long run win that game, because they are not ideologically retarded like the liberal West

If everybody started from the same baseline they would necessarily arrive at the last endline.

*at the same last endline

Yeah nah

There are only gonna be so many docotros physicists and mathematicians as much as the centrally planned AI thinks is optimal for the economy.

No they are middle class. Having free tuition brings them closer to the bourg and further separates them from the actual lower classes.

Fuck off middle class scum. You will get much more money later and have an overall benefit, if not why not not go?

This thread appears to be infested with anarcho-primitivists, libertarians, and whatever retardation Jason Unruhe is suffering from.

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Yeah sorry I guess I'm not RANK and FILE enough for you, trot.

I'm a britbong so most of our campuses are "leftwing", still I never talk about politics because A) I fucking hate polsci students with a burning fucking passion B) never talk politics with mates drunk C) I cna just say "this is work for me can we not?" and that shuts people up and D) most university "Marxists" are fucking trots and god they piss me off.
But yeah, I angle towards political econ: in which the british academic consensus is anti-neoliberal now so it's mostly fine.

it's producing the "brain-formations" that can do cognitive-labour, so this is correct.
pay no attention to

Most people who go to Uni in the developed world aren’t Porky. They are prols who will work in a shity cubical making a shity wage.


hahahah its funny because the preconomy is even worse than that. office jobs? maybe if youre a chinese or indian guy in programming. anyone who says to their kids "just get the degree, any degree, itll be good for your career" is really out of touch already. no particular degree actually helps; nepotism or false confidence + wow factor experience on resumes gets you jobs, the degree is just there to look sad and remind you that learning in itself is great for the human, bad for capitalist slavery.
its true though, milennials are doomed because we went to school for our passions. even STEM grads and phds cant get jobs due to overspecialization or being "overqualified." which as we all know means "threatening levels of competence that could unseat the overpaid employees dragging the company down" or "someone who will be too expensive."

bank robbery is probably going to be a viable career soon

For me I didn't like the environment except for a few professors who I was able to converse with and who suggested books to me. The students were mostly unintelligent/distracted, and I can't say I blame them since everyone was working two jobs on the side. I have an insane amount of debt that basically maroons me with my parents and I can't get a job with my degree without paying more money for certifications or grad school. So not too good for the future, had some good experiences with some gigs, spent a lot of time hitting the books (although you can do this on your own.) Although I also am on the spectrum so maybe you would get more out of it if social things are easier for you. There are too many variables for me to blanket endorse or condemn university in general, but I would say the environment isn't really "scholarly" in the US, and I spent 2 years in high end private college and 2 in public university. (Public was probably closer to the ideal.)

Only if it a prestgious university and your dad can guarantee you a job after you graduate or one known for football/basketball and you are an HS player they talk about on ESPN on signing day.

If not, focus on vocational education. However, I guess you can go if you have enough scholarships/grants to ensure you do not get into debt.

this. My uni experience was very similar. I went to a liberal arts school though so the student body was wealthier and most students didn't give a shit about school outside of lecture. Every time I tried to talk about the subjects outside of class people tried to avoid it. Most people were concerned with partying and socializing and saw school as instrumental. I learned a lot but I would also say it was mixed and more on the negative side. Beforehand, I genuinely believed that in uni i'd ascend to some higher intellectual realm where people were smarter and more concerned with learning. I was deeply disappointed when it turned out to be like a glorified high school. Most professors were ok

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This sucks. I have low Autism Level but I love reading about history and politics and leftist theory so the idea of going to a University and discussing and learning these things appeals to me, but it seems like it could just be a school where people just wanna get their grades and get out. Do any of you know any specific schools that are good for actually learning like an intellectual or tips on finding them?

Then just pay me to study life-long dipshit, that will help the economy.

Those without a degree get even worse jobs and you college students know perfectly well that you are going to be a lot better off or else you would not go. Even with debt you will have more money and in yurop where the uneducated lower classes pay for your privilge this is even more extreme and basically a caste society. There is a reason studies about health, wellbeing, social and financial success etc. separate by educational attainment and there is always is large difference between high school and a BSc, of course always in favour of the latter. You effectively cant even move to another country without a BSc.

all male school

Banks are becoming increasingly money-less, so unfortunately it isn't.

That's one option you've got the statistical increase of autism and the competitive drive towards intellectual bantz

The other option is to pick something that tends to be a calling like philosophy, history, or one of the health sciences

When people say low intelligence quotient do they mean they were administered a test during childhood to compute "mental age" and it turned out mental age was less than chronological age? Or is it a colloquial expression for not having good grades on school work?

you dont rob them for the money


that's because of the american god-tier education system tho, where you finish school and then eat dirt, work 4 jobs or go to college to "study" to do 3 jobs after.
as a germanfag I can tell, since people here are kind of forced to go to Uni (numbers of students at universities rise and rise) because of the adoption of the bachelor`s/master`s degree, quality of education is down the drain.
you choose the degree you`d like to get, courses and hours and pretty strict and straight forward.
so, then you get your degree in whatever and realize most jobs are outsourced anyway.
Heck, we send most of our young people to uni, most of those not fit for academia, yet they get a worthless degree no matter what.
you get credits for learning by heart, you do not have to understand anything.

tl;dr you go to uni for a shitty degree, not to learn or educate yourself.

mostly same for me. I'm nearing the end of third year in public community college. I think I need to drop out of academics for a while after getting this associates and reevaluate my financial situation and consider if taking on debt for a physics degree even worth it.

I'm german too and when they asked in some cross-class meeting in the oberstufe who will go to uni like 98% raised their hand. You say even with a degree it's not great and I agree but what you college graduates like to ignore is what that means for those who do not even gave that, it's like not having a high school degree.

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I question this, a lot of the work coming out of america seems cargo cultish wikipedia cribbing especially in the humanities
The noises Americans make suggest that the advantage of further education over there is networking and an in to the lingo of the upper classes

Prior to that it seemed to be cargo cultish textbook cribbing with little reference to primary sources

A lot of undergrad is getting the fundamentals drilled into you before the brain is fully developed, meaning and context come later with practice

What's the point in sending everyone and their dog to "higher education" when in the end you have those who were not in uni left behind and those who attended uni being brainlets still?
one outcome is that you by now have to have dropped out of uni to get an apprenticeship. employers are specifically looking for uni-dropouts to hire rather than people who did not attend uni.

It's competition for a higher position in the hierarchy. For every individual uni is in his self-interest and the worse others do the better for him.

universities should not exist

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where do I sign up, ma man?

A whore gets paid a slut doesn't.

Then you aren't much of a whore if you have standards.

Evergreen has a good reputation

well if you "produce" enough skilled labour, this would be less of a problem.
well it's not like this can't be remedied.

The point is that the results of education do matter, even if the system for credentialing is ass. You need engineers, doctors, and so on if you want to have industrial civilization at the current level of development, and you need quite a few of them. In theory you could have those professions self-educated, or you could promote a system of general education and then people filling a technical job receive the technical education needed to be proficient at that particular field (and this is probably where we need to head in the end, the mental division of labor is such a problem that it's difficult to connect those fields together coherently, which is why a lot of modern teams try to get people from multiple fields together).

It can't be remedied when the status of people in the system depends on this ignorance, and the notion that their Ivy League degrees are somehow better or mark them as a better pedigree than the rest of us scum. The university system is built on an insane competition and race to the bottom, one which leaves most people who pass through the system with nothing but debt and broken promises.
If we were trying to produce skilled labor, even by the standards of capitalism, we wouldn't do it this way. But the universities themselves are dominant institutions which are in a position to dictate the terms of society to a large extent, at least the really big ones from which the ruling class is largely receive their education.

More the latter, or they took a test online. I doubt they give Autism Level tests that much anymore

I got Autism Level tested twice, but I was an unusual case (wound up in sped, but mom wanted to prove I wasn't retarded). One test showed genius level, the second and probably more accurate showed average in the parts I could arse to do. Honestly though the psychologist has a lot of leeway to just make shit up. I got a high score because my mother and the system impressed on me that if I didn't cram for the test, I'd be put in the retard box forever, and I really didn't want that.

The system will use the tests when they need to accomplish a goal, and they exist primarily to detect defectives rather than geniuses (and from their perspective, "average" Autism Level is defective, because they have ruled that only the top 20% or so of humanity is actually worthwhile).

If you pay students for their education in terms of this being a type of work, the labour aristocracy aspects of higher education will fade away.
Granted there also is a bottleneck in terms educational through put, and for this more teachers and more teaching facilities will probably be required, but also some technical productivity increases are possible, for example there are learning websites that can substitute for foundational level learning.

Institutional power for knowledge isn't a bad thing in off it self, it becomes a problem when models of reality stop reflecting actual reality.

It's not a question of the value of work, it's the political nature of educational institutions itself. Even a "real" meritocracy is problematic when it realizes it can impose itself on the rest of society (and it inevitably leads to a willful blindness and lack of self-criticism, because such criticism would itself break the foundation of their political power). It makes more sense if you understand educational institutions properly as social clubs and relations rather than believing that learning itself is the goal. You can learn on your own, but you aren't going to prove it without the credential and the good word of the administrators of educational institutions. And, if someone can self-educate, what does it say about the educational system as a whole, of academic institutions? And people can self-educate, and need to in the present system anyway because it really is sink or swim and you get no more than you're allowed to get. In my case, I was allowed nothing, no real credential, and have to beg desperately just so I can be exploited in the most menial of labor, or I need to scheme extensively in work with uncertain pay and uncertain prospects, or I would need to become a criminal. There was no way whatsoever to reverse this, because the school as a system was dead set against allowing me any credential under any circumstances.

By requiring people to learn on their "own time" one would effectively be perpetuating class differences generationally. If you make education a type of work, and pay students this will not happen, and it will become harder to maintain these cliques, you pointed out.

I don't quite see why i should see the educational system as a caste, to me the point of this is learning if this is not so, that means it's malfunctioning. I'm not sure whether the social relations are actually what is breaking this, to me the largest problem is resource allocation. I think the usual way of doing this via money-budgets is sort of broken to begin with, because that presupposes a logic of gaming the system as only realistic mode of interacting with it, if you have a material requisitioning system instead, it becomes possible to figure out which patterns work and which don't. There are certain simple fixes like increasing the amount of teachers so you get more educational care/student, and of course a broader range of view-points about learning fields, but not all patterns are as obvious as this, and will require experimentation, which would allow for people to have their alternative schooling, and in a dialectical way help advance education strategies.

For higher education and scientific research, the largest problem is that market capitalism can interfere with this, however broken public government bureaucracies can be, the current system where some rich capitalist can buy quacks and hacks to produce pseudo science for the purpose of creating disinformation to improve profit margins, is nothing less than a attempt at producing theocratic domination like in medieval times. Science and knowledge is about creating models that approximate objective reality, with the implicit goal of removing as much subjective human biases as possible and over time increasing the detail and accuracy of models of reality, You can't bribe reality.

As far as credentials go, I get it, that immediately turns into a game of getting a title, and by extension making sure only the ingroup is allowed to have titles while the out-group can't have titles . There is some room for easy improvement here by granting people science credentials for producing negative research results, because those produce beneficial secondary effects of preventing others from pursuing dead ends down the line, as well as allow for meta studies that contrast effective vs ineffective research strategies, this would effectively challenge dogmatic-ism about what constitutes "wrong-think". Consider that if you are considered to be affected by "wrong-think" then this would not be a reason to exclude you, but rather mean you are going to produce lots of negative results, or maybe you'll produce positive results and then we increase our understanding of reality. Science tends to advance one funeral at a time, it doesn't need to be this way.

Science and learning produces knowledge, knowledge allows you to solve problems, there is no way to skip the bit in the middle.

Move students and teachers into the workplace, move workers into the schools
The problem with bourgeois education is that it is divorced from real praxis. To varying degrees, most socialist countries have attempted to mix education and work together to a level much higher than in capitalism. The peak of this was probably during the GPCR in China. However, Marx even writes about this idea in Capital Volume 1, in the section on child labor. He advises that children should work part of the day, and go to school during another part. His reasoning (which is sound) is that children have limited mental and physical energy, and should use time learning to rest their bodies, and time working to rest their minds. Stalin discussed the benefits of factory workers being educated enough to innovate in the factory in Problems of the Soviet Economy IIRC. And Mao used the strategy of mixing students and workers as a way to crush bourgeois intellectualism. Overall, it is an extremely crucial step in abolishing the division of labor.

In an advanced communist society, students would run much of their school, according to their capabilities. They would do the janitorial work, administrative work, and so on, learning skills along the way, and they would be paid in labor credits for their work. There are even some bourgeois school systems where students do a lot of the work (and don't even get paid), such as in Japan. As well, most bourgeois universities do have student work programs, but they would be expanded (as the current programs are highly segregated between locals who don't have education and do dirty work, and students who get relaxing "work study" jobs). The flipside of this is that education would also be moved into the workplace. Workers could have something like a day per week, or an hour per day (or more), of taking classes on relevant topics (or electives if they choose). These classes could have visiting lecturers/instructors, or workers in the workplace who are educated on the topic running the sessions. All would also be organized and trained in militias. All of this together would create an extremely advanced and flexible working class that could innovate much faster than is done in capitalism, would switch jobs with ease, and would be more complete human beings.

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Is it worth it to get math degree or do I have to at least complete masters or even further? I really like philosophizing shits with rigorous language but not sure what career opportunity awaits for beta shut-ins in this egonomy

This is already what happens though.
It would help to compensate students for going to school, but it would not be the only solution, because the schools and universities are institutions that seek to perpetuate themselves. Whether you pay the student or not is not materially relevant to that.

What really needs to happen is a sort of "de-specialization", where students aim for a general education, and then receive technical education appropriate to filling a particular type of job once they decide (or the government decides) that's what they're going to do with their time. We need to get away from telling kids "what do you want to be when you grow up", as if we need to fill this or that profession. I never had an answer to this (of course none was ever expected of me). I just wanted to be a man who could do something, anything, that was useful. That, of course, was the one thing that was unacceptable, and I think many normals experience the same thing when they realize that their work is just there to make some rich assholes perpetuate their system and their government, and that their dreams are subordinated to that. I just experience it in a way that is utterly undeniable, and comes with social restrictions.

There isn't an easy answer because much of the way universities are structured encourages this division of knowledge, and the separation of the mind and bodies of knowledge into spheres which do not come into contact with each other. A funny thing is that once I started reading more philosophy and reading about Marxism, my understanding of computer programming improved because I actually started to think about what I was writing, rather than just hacking out code. (I must confess though, I am not a great programmer and my programs are chock full of crashes and mistakes… but I'm making fewer than I did when I took up the hobby a few years ago after about a decade of brain rot.)

Probably the simplest reform would be to test kids for basic literacy and arithmetic. If you pass the test, and show sufficient capability later on, congratulations, you get to skip large parts of primary school. If you're behind, then there's a cause for teaching. In practice though, because of how institutions work, the kids who don't succeed first try will be ostracized and declared defectives. I don't see how socialism resolves this because it is the class interest of those who attain the status to preserve it, and preserve it for their children. But you have to acknowledge the class differences within the so-called working class and the open antagonisms, which is dangerous for a revolutionary state to even contemplate when they're already busy trying to fight the old capitalists. Still, if we could somehow reduce this effect (as we have to, out of dire necessity really because the current model of ruthless competition and exterminism is literally killing humanity and society), we could do that right now and cut the school day in half, and kids would have more time to develop organically instead of being beaten and demoralized the way most students are now (with a few so-called gifted students being endlessly praised and turned into the worst shits imaginable).

I have doubts that you would have a "school" as such. Schools as institutions are about policing and suppression rather than learning. You can have organized learning groups without "schooling" per se, and you can socialize children and build a sense of community without resorting to the sickening methods of schooling. How to do this would be uncharted territory unfortunately, since such attempts are extremely frowned upon in the present society and mark a child for extreme exclusion.

Does anyone know how extensive is the Bar "Character and Integrity" FBI background check? I would hate to spend years of my life and hundreds of thousands of dollars on law school only to be denied because of my affiliation with far-left groups.

What's more based, being a public defender or a litigator suing shitty corporations for evil behavior?

I didn't know that was even a thing. I thought there were commie lawyers? Or is this a new thing because of the Nazi (I mean, "Patriot" Act?)

From my own experience: it's typically academia/education, computers, finance, or bust. And this is even with a master's. Typically, for the non-math majors, people with the major per se (e.g. computer science, finance) will be preferred over a math major. You could get into something else with additional certifications, like accounting or actuarial science, but getting them costs time and money (unless you can get your university to cover the certification costs).

Math is the ass end of STEM. It's a great, intellectually rigorous field, mind, but no employer gives a shit about any of that.

considering university still costs a lot here, I don't think being math teacher would work out for me. Managing money sounds as reactionary as one can get unless I can figure out how to work as triple agent, engineering next crisis during fasicst regime so I'd have to wait for revolution before starting my intellectual masturbatory adventure.


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become a monk

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Pythagoreans get the bullet too.