For all the time spent discussing firearms, accessories, gear, etc to levels of exactingly autistic detail, I'm surprised that there are never any general ammunition discussion threads. I intend to change that right here.
Share your favorite factory or hand loads and discuss why you like them and what you use them for.
Other urls found in this thread:
ballistics101.com
savannaharsenal.com
sgammo.com
grafs.com
eastcoastreloading.com
grafs.com
youtu.be
youtu.be
twitter.com
I'll start with pic related, Speer Gold Dot JHP, particularly their 230gr .45 ACP load (just because I only have 2 handguns, both chambered in .45). I think the entire line of Gold Dot loads is underrated based on personal experience with the .45 loads and what I've researched for other common calibers.
Pros:
Cons:
This one is more an open ended question, but what is out there in the world of 5.56 ammo that isn't covered by your typical NATO equivalent/knockoff (M193/M855) loads?
I personally shoot a ton of Federal XM193 for a variety of reasons but I can't help but think there have to be alternatives that far outperform it, even if that performance is situational. As far as why I buy XM193:
Pros Specific to Federal XM193 in the 420 round cans:
Pros Specific to M193 style ammo:
Cons Specific to M193 style ammo:
All that being said, I know there has to be some other types of 5.56 ammo worth stocking up on, even if it is for niche uses. For example, what is a good hunting load for small deer? Winchester makes some 64gr expanding ammunition based on the same design aa their .30+ caliber bullets but I think something heavier would be better, I just can't find one that I like.
What's a good alternative bullet to hollow points, that doesn't get stopped by thick jackets?
Plastic tipped stuff?
Modern hollow point designs don't have that problem unless the stars are aligned in just the wrong way. Otherwise consistent or barrier-blind expansion ammo like Hornady's polymer tipped critical defense and critical duty line are what you want.
On that note, does anyone have a good recommendation for other ammo like critical duty? I like the mid-line heavier bullet weight in 9mm (135gr) and the barrier performance, but I'd love to find something a little cheaper without LEO credentials, or maybe loaded a little hotter.
Just bought 2 boxes of this for home defense. How did I do?
Does anyone have experience using .38 wadcutters or xtreme penetrators? I am considering using one or the other for carry. What would be the best to go with?
That all depends on how it patterns out of your gun. I've got a typically low opinion of winchester buckshot but I've never shot that one, it might actually be buffered.
OP here, I'd say Gold Dot but they only have 124gr and 147gr loads as far as I can tell. Maybe someone else can chime in because there has to be something out there cheaper than Hornady's offerings. Hornady makes good ammo but their pricing is heavily supported by marketing, just look at how much they have to discount their ammo for LEOs in order for it to sell.
If your gun can group them all right those 75gr Hornady BTHP tend to fuck whitetail up one shot. I have used a 62gr SP on a deer and it did the job, iirc it was some golden bear I had on me.
Buffalo bore makes a SWC for SD that is close to an old FBI loading.
I use cast lead handloads exclusively.
.38 special brass, S+B primer, 14 grains of w296 equivalent and a 358429 sized at .359 and an OAL of 1.52 (crimp groove). Beefy recoil and flies put at 1400fps from a 12" bbl.
44 special brass, s+b primer, 20gr w296 and a 429421 bullet sized at .430, OAL seated to crimp groove. 1300 fps, gun has a large forcing cone, would be much faster in a lever action.
Winchester brass, s+b primer, 37gr imr4198, modified lee 459-500-3r with the nose cut down (mill out 7mm off the mold) to make the bullet OAL 1.16 inches with a total OAL of 2.55" and a speed of 1450fps iirc. Very hot load, do NOT use in old guns. Tested in a 2014 1895G.
Here's a question that has been vexing me for some time; what is a "good" option for AK food? I've stuck with whatever 123/124gr range ammo is available in bulk since steel case soft points and hollow points from the typical factories (Wolf, Tula) appear to be shit when it comes to actually expanding. Is there any decent steel case (read: cheap) 7.62x39 that expands reliably?
I know almost nothing about handloads, is "429421" the nominal diameter ofthe bullet on a mic?
.40 HST 165 grain. Big bullet, big HP, lots of velocity, hot round.
.300 Federal SP 180 grain. Big bullet, very good BC, tons of velocity, pretty accurate, annihilates game.
PPU m855. Yeah, there's less fragmentation, but I like shooting through anything I want to that isn't 3+ plate armor.
Don't know about expansion, but Vympel (Golden Tiger) loads theirs with the russian equivalent of the M67 projectile. It's also primer and case sealed like military ammo. In my experience quite accurate for steel case as well.
Haven't actually reloaded a round yet. I have four barrels and no intention to buy them all factory food. But I used to reload using the lee one-caliber, which always amused me because you used a hammer for every step, including seating the bullet.
I still have half a box of .308, and I intend to make some 7.62 russian rounds pushing 155gr BTSP. The barrel I have doesn't start the lands until a full 2.5" in, so I can conceivably load it very long, it will still fit in the magazine, and that will give me room for enough BL-C2 to, according to QuickLoad, get about 2100fps.
What's the catch other than who makes it?
Federal Fusion has pretty good gel results and has a version made for 16 inch barrels.
429421 and numbers like it are catalog numbers for bullet molds.
I guess I just did. $700 shipped for 500 rd 9mm, 1,000 of 7.62x39, and 1,500 of 5.45 at 24cpr, plus a few boxes of grendel so I won't have to absolutely wait until I have reloads of my own ready.
Yeesh. It's not like I wanted to eat, or anything.
If you have to sacrifice eating and the rest of your life for ammo you are doing it wrong.
Should have bought a turret press instead.
The old adage, user. He who settles with semites will be unsettled.
The wadcutters are fun target loads. They leave nice perfect holes. I wouldn't use it for carry though.
Would they enhance blood loss? clean holes heal slower than jagged ones.
Is it okay to own a Tavor?
Get the fuck out.
Wadcutters are less likely to deflect off bone due to its shape, but I think penetration is pretty poor compared to round nose, semiwadcutters are a thing though.
I think what we need are some good tutorials on how to make ammo completely from scratch. If there were to be any serious gun control measures, they would target ammunition first.
You'd have to break it down by component and manufacturing finesse.
It's one thing to reload a .38 special with match heads and cast bullets. It's another thing entirely to make smokeless powder with a consistent grain size, punch and draw cartridges and primer cups/anvils, synthesize primer compound, make jacketed steel core bullets, and so forth.
On the topic, would it be possible to make expedient cartridges by starting with brass tubing and threading, brazing, or pressing on a turned brass cap?
I remember hearing somewhere that you could make cartridges from lipstick containers. Don't know or method though.
I know it's possible, because I've seen instructions for creating obsolete cases out of brass tubing in the Handloaders Manual to Cartridge Conversion. I don't have access to it right now but fuck it, you got me curious so I've got a new one coming from Amazon. I'll post relevant information when I get it in.
If none of that brass has been cast then it might be possible to do it with a cap.
If I recall some factories used their equipment to make lipstick tubes from former casings.
Tested today:
14gr of AR2205 under a 170gr 358429 cast lead slug mounted in the crimp groove on .38 special brass will see your bullet flying out at 1350 feet per sec. Here's the ballistic testing. Punched clean through the thickest part of 100m and kept fucking going.
BTW if anyone's curious as to what happens to a phone when .223 hits it, here's some pics
300 BLK is superior to 5.5Shit
but they're more expensive unless you handload and the advantage isn't really worth it unless you have a suppressed SBR.
It's cheaper then .308 on average
Holy shit what a revelation.
It's still 7.62x39 at .45 cpr.
Nothing wrong with either of em. Both will kill deer with the right load.
That's another thing: I'm surprised gungrabbers are too simple minded to not go after ammo. How do you make ammo from scratch? Guns are comparatively easier to make.
If you can make gunpowder, turn brass and cast lead, you can make ammo from scratch.
They do when they can. Chicago has a tax of 5 cents per round, I think commiefornia and a few other states have waiting periods on buying ammo.
Reminds me of those guys from high school that made a killing driving their van up to New York City and selling cigarettes without the taxes.
Depends really. Shotgun ammo is basically the primer, powder, projectile, and casing. I guess the cup as well if you don't want to ruin your gun. You don't even need a press to put it all together. The catch is that shotguns aren't as effective in an authoritarian shit hole as they can be stopped by most body armor. Lord save the faggots not wearing body armor though. Rifle/Handgun ammo is a little more complicated without a stationary press, but you can buy a hand press even off of Amazon for under $100 if you want to be a jew about it.
If you're talking COMPLETELY from scratch though and not handloading/reloading which can be accomplished even under a gun ban if you're convoluted about acquiring the separate materials the question becomes how much from scratch are we talking? Making ammunition from the individual parts isn't hard, and you can reuse pretty much the entire round. If you don't have enough lead, you can cast your own from shit you get at antique shops and scrapyards. Brass is easily accessible and no one will question where you got it from/why you're using it from. Even powder isn't a huge issue in the face of a complete and total gun ban since there's a number of guns that you can substitute powder if you absolutely have to with black powder or other explosive powders keep in mind if you're not an expert on this, black powder/other explosive powders CAN make your gun explode if it results in a squib load from lack of pressure or improper loading, so you should avoid it at all costs if you're not a materials engineer, expert on the subject, or not working with black powder firearms in general. Honestly the primers are the hardest component I can think of for "making from scratch" since most modern primers are chemically based and there's only a few applications outside of firearms where one would need primers. I'd imagine ordering primers would be casus belli for a gun grab.
Seriously though, Zig Forums, buy a fucking hand press even if you don't plan on loading your own ammunition. These things will be fucking gold after a gun grab, and will be the only way you're gonna keep your ammo stocked if SHTF unless you plan to raid places likely filled with people using guns.
No. Not yet at least, but there is an upcoming background checks for ammo which is nothing more than an Illinois style firearms owner ID but at a cost of $5(?) per year for renewal. Currently any retailer that sells more than 999 rounds of ammo will need a license from the state to do so and all ammo needs to be out of reach of customers, so no more ammo shelves where you can grab the box and read it or put it away to your heart's content (literally a fucking plastic chain with a carabiner hooked on to some metal shelving is good enough).
Shit, you could make a vending machine that dispenses boxes of ammo. Tap a big touchscreen, it shows you all the stats for that box of ammo, you order a quantity, then when you're done, you swipe a driver's license for age verification (logging optional but reported to customer), then swipe a credit card or ask to pay at the counter.
meme round costing as much as .308 and having half the power
I think primers will be the more valuable item. They're the one component I truly believe is impossible to self manufacture or even manufacture on a small scale no matter what resources you may have available. The chemical compounds used in modern primers require bulk production to be economically viable (the input chemicals are expensive, only sold in bulk, and some reaction ratios are really imbalanced (like 100:1)). and an enormous investment in facilities and equipment in order to be made safely.
Also, there are really only 3 physical sizes of boxer primer (large, small, shotgun) and 2 types of case thickness (pistol, rifle). Stockpiling primers isn't like stockpiling brass, powder, or complete cartridges where there are a billion and one different options on the market. Building a meaningful inventory is easy with just 5 different items needing to be stocked.
so who manufactures primers? The ammo companies themselves don't?
At the end of this year I plan on investing wholesale into a Dillon 650xl and accompanying assessories necessary to reload 5.56, .308, .40, and 300 win mag.
I do believe there has been a bill introduced putting a 50% tax on ammo and guns, so they are getting there. Plus I believe Cali has essentially required background checks for ammo, further making it a hassle to partake in the hobby.
Does anyone how necessary velocity is to the performance of 5.45. I figured it needs to be at least near 7n6, which is 3000 fps.
Also does anyone know of any god damn ballistic charts for 60gr 5.45, pretty much everything I find is for 7n6.
Some companies manufacture both, but there are less primer manufacturers, and other ammo manufacturers source from them.
Federal, CCI, and Winchester are the big three for reloaders.
Probably should have been more clear I meant trajectory and zeros
Primers will be valuable, but I don't think they'll be as valuable as you think they'll be. Reliable, safe, non-corrosive primers may be difficult for laymen to produce, but just primers in general? Not so much. At the end of the day, it's just two tiny pieces of metal and some primary explosive.
Well, apparently my mind took a left turn at Albuquerque because I didn't remember the section clearly. The use of brass tubing was to extend cases, not to fabricate new ones. I do think it would still be viable for low pressure cartridges. Here's the whole section if anyone's interested.
And last one.
The pertinent information is actually in the next chapter.
TL;DR: It can be done, but it's only really safe for black powder.
POORFAG AMMO
What do you use for cheap/bulk rifle food? Golden Tiger (if you can find it in your caliber of choice) and Silver Bear seem like the best steelcase options. Freedom munitions used to be a good source for high-quality reman ammo, but it doesn't seem like they're price-competitive anymore. The reman that tops the list on ammoseek also seems on the dodgy side, but I can't speak for all of those companies, only really had experience with FedArm. Any streloks have experience with other budget manufacturers, particularly brass-case?
sgammo.com
Well, do you really need to go for something like Hornady or Speer? In terms of actual performance they don't seem all that better compared to cheaper HD loads, certainly not enough better to justify the price difference.
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Seconding this, always check gunbot though.
That's for all of Crook County. It's 1 cent for a rimfire round. There's a 25 dollar tax for guns.
I'm just getting into reloading and order some stuff to reload 8x57 and 7.62x39. What tips do you guys have for me as experienced re loaders? Brass is pretty expensive, can I get away with reloading steel 7.62x39 twice before having issues?
Steel is almost always berdan primed, and getting those boogers out is generally not worth your time. Look it up, there's supposedly ways involving hydraulic pressure (fill the spent shell with water, plug with rod and gasket, and pound the rod while the rim is suspended) after which point you have to drill out the berdan anvil, and hopefully there's enough metal left to grab/hold a boxer primer.
But having said that, and never having done it, yes steel can typically be reloaded a couple times. Double check, triple check your steel shells because they'll crack much sooner. It's why brass is used, it can put up with the expansion/contraction/reforming process of being shot & reloaded.
Having said that, at least around here, 7.62x39 is cheaper to shoot and throw away than reload. Twenty to twenty-five cents per round, and reloadable virgin brass is fifty cents, the bullet might be thirty or more, two cents for the primer and I don't know how much for the powder, but I bet it exceeds the primer expense – eighty five cents for the first shot, and nearly forty cents each consecutive shot until you have to retire that particular shell, which will be anywhere from two to ten shots from what I hear.
But I reload 7.62x39. Mostly in hopes of achieving accuracy – my AR seems to be a ten-MoA gun using GT factory rounds; I'm hoping that using .308 instead of .311 bullets, and loading long because the lands are right at 2.5", will improve everything.
In any event, best of luck to you, and the 8x57 is definitely going to beg for reloading as that's just not a popular/cheap cartridge.
Here's a video about it.
Even if you don't have the steel cases crack, they will wear out your nice dies, dies that cost you good money to buy. You won't be saving much when you wear out parts that will otherwise never ever wear out ever with brass. They are made for a certain material, a metal alloy that even among its own type is mixed and designed to be drawn, perfect for its intended purpose, for case making.
Also consider that not all cases are the same, 7.62mm NATO is a great example, there are minute differences between 7.62mm NATO and .308 Winchester, then there is military brass that is thicker and heavier that has less internal dimensions because the walls take up more space and you have to know this because they have to be loaded lighter or else get overpressure. Your steel case might not only be dimensionaly similar to brass on the outside, what is its actual internal capacity? Use standard brass case loads in steel you might be OK, or you might be pushing the envelope.
Buy some good brass for 8mm Mauser, get good Norma brass, if you shoot one rifle only in that caliber consider a neck sizing die instead of full length resizing. Take good care of it, use your equipment well, and if you want shoot lighter loads at lower pressures to extend case life, and you will get your money's worth out of them. Buy some cheap ass PPU brass case Mauser ammo and shoot it up, its damn good brass, and you even get a loaded shell out of the initial cost.
As for 7.62x39, same thing, reload brass or nothing. If you can't do it cheaper than factory ammo, which is highly likely, just don't if you shoot it because its cheap. If you want high quality eat the higher costs for the higher quality product. Either or, no real middle ground.
As for general reloading, buy good equipment, buy good OFFICIAL books form the big boy book producers, don't get too fucking smart for your own good, follow directions, be particular, keep your weights and measurements exact, keep tolerances close, don't be sloppy, don't get creative, follow directions, don't get creative, remember that MAXIMUM loads mean MAXIMUM loads not "keep going till you blow your face off", don't get creative and follow directions and powder weights and OAL carefully and approach maximum pressure with caution. Don't get too creative.
Start with a single stage press and learn the basics, don't jump into a big setup. Buy good stuff, get an old fashioned powder measure to go along with any digital measure you use so you can make sure your digital scale is dead on, never hurts to use both scales to make sure you aren't doing anything wrong. You can't be too careful. And don't get creative.
You'll get at best an additional reload out of steel case if you're lucky. Steel is meant for conscripts and cost effectiveness.
Is this accurate? Any brands of ammo you avoid?
I found some once fired brass for 32 cents a piece, and some .310 bullets for 14 cents each. I'm not sure How man uses I will get out of the brass, let me know, but I'm going to assume 3 uses for once fired. My brass cost would be 10.6 cents, my primer cost would be 3.8 cents, and my bullet cost would be 16.8 cents with shipping and hazard shipping accounted for, so I would be paying 31.2 cents a round before powder is accounted for. I'm going to assume I'm going to pay 7 cents for powder, which would make the price rise to 38 cents a round.
grafs.com
eastcoastreloading.com
grafs.com
I think I'm going to cancel the order on the die. The improved accuracy doesn't make up the 15 cents cost difference to me.
I think I'm going to take your advice on the ppu brass.
I've only had serious problems with Winchester 12 gauge having fat rims that hate extractors and Remington being generally smoky and filthy.
A friend of mine tried Winchester Super X .270 and it shot minute-of-man while failing to feed in a bolt action, so he swore never to buy it again.
There's a chance I can save you a few pennies.
https americanreloading.com/en/762-39/2205-762x39-mhs-primed-brass-500ct.html
~550 already-primed 7.62x39 all-brass once-fired shells. Which means a hazmat fee, so see if they have the powder you want, but they don't have it not-primed.
Tulammo is decent when it's some slavshit caliber
Everytime I see someone using Remington USC, they usually jam within a minute of noticing. Fiocchi is okay. Freedom Munitions is great. Their remanufactured ammo feeds perfectly in all my guns. Over 10k shot across multiple calibers and my only problem was a short hang fire.
I find plenty of FTF Tula on the ground at any outdoor range.
Just get 7.62x39. Literally the same thing, but cheaper.
Was thinking of buying a V-93 (HK33 clone), it has a 1 in 9 twist and is ".223/5.56" - I'm guessing since these are supposedly HK barrels they use that it can handle 5.56 fine, so what do you guys recommend for a 1 in 9 twist that comes in at a cheap (bi-weekly range trips affordable) price that has acceptable performance against tissue and soft armor or even plate alike? I own only combloc shit now (mosin, wasr, toz17) and was leaning 5.45 for its great performance but is there a 1 in 9 twist optimized loading that performs similarly? I really want a roller lock and I am kinda split between a PTR91 and this V-93. Ammo cost is important but actual usability (performance, mainly terminal as I care) is too, which is why I ask.
In short got any good 1 in 9 twist loads for a roller locker ".223/5.56"?
Update I'm leaning 55 grain on this, any reason to go 62 grain particularly? Also pretty sure the chamber is 5.56x45
M855 is shit. It's not as accurate as 55 gr M193, nor does it wound as well. The only reason it was adopted was because of some retarded Army requirement that the round they adopt be able to penetrate some steel helmet at 600 yards, and in that one particular scenario, the M8555 fared better than M193. Stick with 55 grain for practice and plinking, only reason to get anything else is better wound potential (75 gr Hornady) or ultimate accuracy (69 grain SMK).
M855 was meant for 20" barrels, which is why it suffered in the M4.
Same is true for M193, but it still outperforms M855 out of carbines as well as rifles. Either way you're better off getting the 55 gr for your own personal use.
m855 doesn't "suck" it just depends on what you want to do with a bullet.
Considering that your enemies probably won't be standing naked out in the open with their dick in their hands, you'll appreciate the far better penetration of the m855 against intermediate barriers.
youtu.be
you're obviously a moron talking completely out of your ass
reminder that BTHP rounds do not expand whatsoever.
compared to m193, 75gr BTHP would be far less damaging, probably less lethal than m855 because it's traveling so much slower. Slow 5.56 = fail.
In reality, BTHP rounds are used for "ultimate accuracy," but the retard I'm replying to forgot that as well. More proof that he is pure flatulence.
youtu.be
as you can see, the 55 grain m193 is great for immediate impacts, but has zero penetration. So, if someone runs inside of a house and you're shooting at them, the mere sheetrock, wooden panels, furniture will likely defeat m193, let alone a car. m855 was developed specifically to shoot clean through that and retain enough energy to have explosive potential on the other side, as the video proves.
M193 was replaced for a couple of reasons. One was that they had a nasty tendency to fragment horribly, which is way they have superior performance for a MILITARY round, most are built to not expand or fragment in tissue because of the Haugue. This leads to two major issues.
1. Even though the US never signed the Hague, everyone else basically did and a lot of the west was leaning heavy on the US to use a more Hague friendly bullet. Wither it was designed to fail and fragment to increase its performance in tissue is not the question as so much that it did fragment and cause permanent stretch.
2. As mentioned by other posters, that whole fragment thing might be a better thing against naked men in an open field, but that fragmenting made them shit for barriers. Not only did they basically break up in tissue, they broke up against anything that resisted well enough, too. This lack of barrier penetration can be a huge disadvantage in war situations where you are firing at people behind cover.
Green tips a poor performer? Well, that's kinda the point. It also makes up for deficiencies that aren't so great in blower uppers in tissue bullets.
Its a real problem for the caliber. The light weight and small bullets have a tougher time finding bullets that will both penetrate barrier and still do excellent damage on the other side. 5.56 NATO bullets, without the Hague bothering us, still have the problem that expanding bullets are often too light and hit too fast to hold together to punch through barriers, harder bullets meant to penetrate really aren't that good at expanding and causing damage.
On the other hand, battle rifle cartridges offer soft points that can both punch through things and still have great damage potential on the other side. In fact, many argue that 7.62 NATO or ANY battle rifle cartridge not be used in urban environments except special use because of this, and why 5.56mm might better because ti limits collateral damage.
The velocity difference between xm193 and 75 gr Hornady frontier is only 200 f/s, and the frontier has about 200 ft-lbs more energy. And no, the BTHP isn't meant to expand, it's for accuracy. It's the other properties of the t2 bullet that give it good terminal performance.
All right, fair enough. Other tests I had seen indicated that at short ranges M193 still did okay through barriers, perhaps this isn't the case. If that's the case however, M193 being subpar isn't the same as M855 being good. If you want a projectile that does well through barriers, there are better options out there, such as mk 318 or the various bonded-jacket bullets, that are still "barrier blind" but have much better terminal effects than M855.
the way I see it, you can't have your cake and eat it too.
I have to wonder about mk318. It removes steel entirely from the bullet, which was the whole point, introduces an actual hollow-point with some brass in the back. Brass is lighter and less tough than steel, so it will fragment more. So how much penetration is being sacrificed for the m193 shills? It feels like too much of a "universal" round, of which I am always suspicious because it's 9/10 too good to be true.
The real issue is that 5.56 has limitations, and given that I prefer actually hitting the enemy with a full on bullet and penetrate them, instead of hoping for expansion and maybe hitting them with really fast traveling specks of bullet. Yeah, it may not drop them as fast under ideal conditions, but they'll bleed out soon enough. You still have fragmentation because within a certain velocity range the mass differential between the steel and lead rips the bullet in half, vid-related. Also, outside a certain velocity range, m193 also stops fragmenting, which is of course never brought up by you-know-who.
Or we can just go back to 7.62x51 cannons and resume literally blowing humans to smithereens.