I've been eyeing up the Ruger's PCC recently (which is probably going to be unobtanium for the next several months without spending ludicrous amounts of money) and it got me thinking about which ones are and aren't shit.
From what I've seen, Hi Point carbines aren't too bad, but the plastic picatinny rail doesn't give me much confidence in any scenario outside of once a month shooting with added optics. The Cx4 seems good if you're a Berettafag because of mag interchangeability, but that's all it really has going for it besides weight. I've heard good things about mechtech Glock uppers, but don't own a Glock yet. They're the only good choice I've seen thus far if you want a 10mm carbine, though by that point you've got ~$600 for the G20/29 (assuming you don't have one) and another ~$500 into the upper. Still not sure if I trust lel-kek's meme2000 to not explode in my face if I use anything even slightly hotter than factory 115 grain loads.
Apparently these new ones don't beat themselves to death like the older .44, .40, and 9x19 carbines did, so they should be fine if you can wait for the price to drop.
Surprisingly good but the capacity is severely lacking, even with their crappy looking extended magazines. If you don't like the look there are expensive stock kits out there.
Unicorns, but they work just fine if you can find one.
Jacob Barnes
ASR's tend to be great for what they are and come in 10mm and take standard glockazines. gen 2 guns are fine.
Aiden Perry
PCCs seem pointless to me
it has a marginal velocity increase that is insignificant over a pistol, without the advantage of power a rifle should have in the first place.
Justin James
fugoff gaylord people want their stuff not your opinion
Christian Lewis
They have some marginal use because of ergonomics. If for whatever reason you absolutely, positively had to use pistol ammunition (maybe the only range convenient to you is a rinky-dink indoor affair that doesn't allow rifle cartridges), it's a lot more comfortable to shoot it from a stocked rifle than a handgun.
Hudson Peterson
Can we talk about rifle-caliber pistols here too?
Jace Lewis
I haven't used the Ruger before, but I have used both the high point and the kel-tec before, and I would honestly suggest the high point over the kel-tec. The only cheek weld one can get on the sub2k is on the metal tube stock, and that's given me a bruise on the cheek, even with some foam around the tube. If your requirements are anything but sheer portability, go for the hi-point. It's a little heavy, but reliable and cheap.
Levi Kelly
Kalash modified to take PPSH mags in 7.62x25 or 9x19. Stupid, sexy, or both?
Man I remember that guy building that thing. I hope hes happy with it.
Noah Perry
I agree. PCC's only make sense if you're going to chamber them for something like .460 rowland, the wildey magnums, .45 winchester magnum, or any other shorter versions of african big game cartridges. Even then you're best getting them in an sbr with a 10-12" barrel with a good brake.
Adrian Lee
inexpensive, light ammo. Meaning 400 rounds on your person leaves enough to stuff your pockets with what gets dropped as ppl run away.
Assuming you're just using like a suppressive fire thing – don't have to hit anybody, just make them duck behind cover while you get past to your actual destination / cover.
Ryder Ortiz
That's good and all but if you have to shoot someone and they any sort of soft armour on you're out of luck.
What we really need is a new cartridge that gives .30 carbine performance levels using spitzer bullets out of ~12" barrels. The .270 ren would be a good starting point but it needs some more .270 ren is a .22 hornet case blown out to accept .277 bullets. Velocity is between 1500-1600 fps in 8" barrels with 100 and 110 grain bullets This cartridge will be able to pierce soft armour, have similar terminal ballistics and superior external ballistics to .30 carbine. All while being light, handy, and much more effective then any non-magnum pistol round could ever be.
10mm develops rifle scale energies out of 10 inch barrels
Charles Cooper
Even for suppressive fire, the capability of your shots matters. There's a reason the SAW isn't chambered for .22 LR.
Xavier Flores
theyre quieter and lighter than rifles, producing less flash. theyre restricted in some nations because poachers use them
remember "rifle" doesnt just mean full sized rifle ammo like .308 or 8mm mauser. there are plenty of intermediate or light rifle ammo like .22lr fully within the competitive range of a carbine.
Zachary Adams
AM180 and 360
google its performance with police, turns out a couple of kilos of lead are hard to ignore, even if they come a gram at a time.
Levi Hughes
Yeah but then you'd be back to expensive ammo (unless some major military/LEO adopted it) and you'd still need to justify not just bumping up to a true intermediate rifle cartridge.
Interestingly, existing PCCs don't fare that poorly against body armor.
Gabriel Lewis
level 3a is supposed to stop .357 sig which is much more potent then what came out of Paul's carbine so I'm surprised by that. But it figures soft armour isn't as consistent as plates.
But why not just avoid a pcc altogether if you're life's depending on it? 5.56 is surprisingly close to 9x19 in terms of weight. NATO 9x19 weighs 194 grains while 5.56 weighs 184 & 196 grains for M855A1 & mk 262 respectively. You'll save on volume but the trade off in ability is massive and to me it isn't worth it.
I like pcc's because they are cheap to shoot and plink with but I don't think I would stake my life on one if a had a rifle in an intermediate or full power round available. I also find a lot of them to be too expensive for what they are so it's hi-point carbines for me until I can make my own. The reason I suggested the cartridge above is so you could build a small gun with a short barrel without having to worry about excess muzzle flash and blast yet still get good 200 yard performance from it. I still stick by my original post that pcc's should be chambered for magnum level cartridges. If companies want me to pay nearly $1000, or in some cases even more, for their carbines then it should come in an equally expensive and absurd round.
Wild and crazy thought here … what about building a metral+bullpup in an intermediate round?
The Metral sub-gun is chambered in 9mm so it can take uzi-lookalike magazines, and take them through the grip. It's an open-bolt sub-gun so would dissipate heat pretty okay if you stepped up the round size, loaded with an equally-straight magazine for 300AAC or .50 beowulf, or .30-carbine … but move the grip in front of the mag well and just use some extra levers to operate the sear?
Jordan Allen
PCCs are the inbetween for a pistol and a 16 inch rifle. Rifle powders need lots of barrel to burn properly- 14 inches or less of barrel and even the fastest "rifle class" powder like IMR 4198 creates obnoxious fireballs and wasted powder, with the sole exception of 300 blackout because it has the ability to use magnum pistol powders like H110, which has an optimum burn length around 12 inches.
Aiden Johnson
does this count as a PCC?
technically a light rifle or neutered subgun sure but it was designed to share its round with a companion pistol so…maybe? The masterpiece arms mac 10 clone takes Five-seveN mags too so maybe that can be considered a PCC.
I could see something in either 5.7x28 or 9x19 as a decent PCC. lightweight and no recoil to speak off, so it would be pretty friendly to gun noobs or anyone with an injury that makes using larger rounds difficult. You could get a shitload of rounds on target in a big hurry with something like that.
pity they are all retard expensive…or hi-point and low capacity. Also buying just one kind of ammo is nice. Oh well, guess poor people can just stick to bubba'd up SKS or cheap AR15's.
Yeah I'd consider those as a PCC, I mean I consider an AR in 9x19 etc etc as a PCC.
First try non-lethal measures. If they persist then yeah the Sten will do a sten thing.
Jordan Nelson
How would an aspiring gunsmith with a lot of free time go about doing a conversion like this? Are there guides somewhere?
Jacob Long
Obtain a barrel in desired caliber then start muntzing parts, i.e do I need to port the barrel, will the boltface match up with my desired caliber, build a piece that allows use of X magazine.
They're shit. They're too weak for using it like a rifle, and too big to carry like a handgun. They're only suited for shooting tin cans. If you get any PCC you'll regret it and end up selling it for 25% of what you paid for it
If you're gonna be using it for anything other than fun then it has to be smaller and lighter than a real rifle. Sub 2000 is best in that respect at 16in folded and 4lbs. If you get one that works, then it's great, but early gen 2s had front sight problems and they just issued a voluntary recall for faulty heat treating on some 2017 made guns, so typical Kel Tec.
I like to keep one in the car in and it can fit in a much smaller bag than any of my folders.
Justin Wright
Which is why I have sold all mine, right? Again, they are the inbetween weapon of a pistol and a 16" rifle caliber carbine, with the sole exception of 300BO in a very specific powder charge (which just produces .357 mag ballistics anyway). Beyond 14" of barrel, they lose their advantage to rifles who can use slower burning powders from 4198 and below much more effectively than any gains even the mighty H110 makes in barrel length. They are also much cheaper to load for: Compare .35 cents a round for .357 to somewhere between 50 and 75 cents for .223, and 90 cents for .308 here- not to mention straight wall or mild taper cartridges are always simpler to load for and require less autistic levels of cleaning to get consistent performance.
They also helped ban AP ammo. Honestly the only reason the NRA still exists is the same reason the Republicans still exist, sportsball politics "they must be on our side!"
Owen Myers
And the original NFA, and the GCA, and the Undetectable Firearms Act, and the bumpstock ban, and red flag laws.
Always shoot a traitor before an enemy.
Ryan Carter
< Wayne is the reason Hillary is against machine guns
I have had my eye on an old 9mm largo Spanish "destroyer" for a week or two. Not for any practical purpose ofcourse, I think it would make a dandy opossum / racoon gun. But mainly i think it feels and looks good.
