We must make a new type of gun

There are a lot of ideas to be had, with today's modern fantastic ways of thinking and abilities to generate concept and provoke the mind into curiosity I believe that a new type of fire arm must be born from this generation. "Oh but user, we made every conceivable necessary firearm out there, you can't expect us to give a shit about something like this." Maybe you're right, but what if you're wrong? Let's try, at least humor it for a brief moment to see if it's still possible for the absolute fuck of it.

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Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_(munition)
defense-and-freedom.blogspot.com/2009/07/infantry-combat-ranges.html
thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/08/21/modern-intermediate-full-power-calibers-019-russian-6x49mm-unified/
thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/07/09/soviet-experimental-6mm-sniper-rifle-tkb-0145s/
forgottenweapons.com/russian-silent-ammunition/
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

An AK-107 that shoots 9×39mm at over 2000 meters per second. Almost no recoil and can penetrate any body armor known to man.

Let's combine a shotgun and grenade launcher into one package. You just launched a spread of grenades and fuck up the general area.
Alternatively, imagine a quad-barreled two bore shotgun.

i still want rocket ammunition for shotguns for long range shooting. i am sure this is doable and would function without any problems

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I had just came up with what I thought was a cool new idea, only to find out that it already exists.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pike_(munition)

ZF-1.
It's light; handle's adjustable for easy carrying; good for righties and lefties; breaks down into four parts; undetectable by X-ray; ideal for quick discreet interventions. A word on firepower. Titanium recharger; 3000-round clip with bursts of 3 to 300. With the replay button, another Zorg invention, it's even easier.One shot…and replay send every following shot to the same location. And to finish the job, all the Zorg oldies but goldies. Rocket launcher… arrow launcher with exploding or poisonous gas heads, very practical… famous net launcher… the always-efficient flamethrower, my favorite… and for the grand finale, the all-new 'Ice-cube System

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Can we with near-future materials scale down Vulcan-like 20mm autocannons to man-portable size? If yes is it possible for man-portable tripods or similar measures to deal with that kind of recoil?

Are pure carbon-based composite/graphene barrels a thing even in theory?

Make a GPMG that is so light and handy that you can use it as a SMG, and accurate enough to be a DMR, all the while firing a cartridge that is effective at least up to 1km. Call it something like service rifle or infantry rifle.

Nyet, cartridges for an individual weapon should be designed for a maximum range of 300m for point targets and 600m for section massed fire against area targets. Even that is optimistic, 250m and 500m would be best in my opinion.
The idea of identifying and engaging the enemy at such great ranges is only realistic if we assume the enemy is not expecting your presence, and thus does not attempt to hide. If this is the case, it is a one trick pony. After news gets around of the enemy attacking from longer ranges with small arms, the enemy will be much more cautious.

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...

Cased telescopic rounds with RDX based propellant.

Alright, I thought you meant for point targets. Massed section fires would certainly make that possible however electro-optics are likely the more realistic approach there as opposed to using a bigger cartridge. Being able to use a sabot would also be good as it means the bullet only has to be designed for terminal and external ballistics, since the sabot handles the internal side of things in regards to obturation etc.

I meant more along the lines of this:
defense-and-freedom.blogspot.com/2009/07/infantry-combat-ranges.html

Since it's somehow related, do you think conventional small arms will eventually be obsolete in the military if body armor keeps evolving until it can stop and properly absorb the impact force of anything that doesn't completely fuck your shit up?

Aren't they already obsolete and it's just a small thing to have as an emergency?

Conventional as in chemical propellant? Possibly, but not anytime soon. Material science advances have allowed armor to make a comeback, and that might be the status quo for a little while, but it won't last. In the long run, offensive tech always progresses faster than defensive; entropy and a bunch of other shit dictates that it's always going to be easier to destroy something than to preserve it. The same advances that have allowed armor to advance I'd going to allow us to create hotter burning powders, stronger, higher pressure chambers, and more advanced bullets. You can already see this definitively on the vehicular scale, whether it's ASMs, ATGMs, or MANPADS. This tech hasn't made armor completely obsolete, but it does serve to emphasize using speed as your defense rather than relying on armor.

Why don't you train them as machine gunners? Yes, it requires them to fire ammo and takes up time, but a well-trained machine gunner can do the job of a whole squad alone. Surely, achieving fire superiority simply by bringing more firepower to the fight is not that exciting, but if it works, then it works.
Be more precise. Currently, to get an "expert" rating on the shooting range in one of the brances of the armed forces of the United States of America you only have to pull off 4 MoA or so. Which might be sad, but it doesn't mean that no soldier in the world can be trained to better standards.
They were given to conscripts who were trained how to use them. Surely, if the Cold War armies of the Warsaw pacts were able to train them, then a much smaller professional army should be able to do so too. Also, all I wanted to illustrate is that there is such a thing as a GPMG and shoulder-fired individual weapon firing the same cartridge and still being effective. Even more, the PKM can be fired from the shoulder, and the Russkies were crazy enough to make a bullpup Dragunov that is capable of automatic fire.
Having 22 different calibres won't do that either, but it also won't help you when you are facing a sudden lack of supplies and you have to make compromises.
What if that's wrong and the general purpose round weights the same as an SCHV cartridge?
thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/08/21/modern-intermediate-full-power-calibers-019-russian-6x49mm-unified/
Now put it into a cased telescopic polymer case, and you have something that is both light and fun. Mind you, I can still accept that this is way too strong of a cartridge, but it shows that you can do quite a lot without excessive weight.

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Since Afghanistan these are squad-level weapons. Not every rifleman has them, but all squads of riflemen have both of these weapons. They aren't the equivalent of an M2 Browning and a .338 Lapua Magnum sniper rifle.

He basically argues for calling in mortar fire against all targets that are further away than 400m, and using small teams of spotters to engage the enemy from a distance with mortar fire. I see several problems with this approach, so I will break it down to a few vaguely joined parts.
He assumes that infantry becomes invisible past 700m, and so firing at them with small arms is a waste of time and effort. Then he goes on and says that calling mortar fire at them is the solution. How so? It sounds like he wants the spotters to call in mortar fire against area targets where there might be enemy infantry. That doesn't sound efficient. And what if the enemy infantry manages to close in on the spotters undetected? Now they will be overrun and there is a great hole in you line of spotters that the enemy can exploit.
That just doesn't seem to be true to me. A few foxholes are enough to defend against that. Of course, you can just use guided 120mm thermobaric mortar shells, but you still have to get close enough to spot the (persumably camouflaged) enemy positions. But if you get that close, then why won't you just use hand-held weapons?
While it's true, as you can both suppress and kill with mortars, in my humble opinion it would be much more efficient to fix them in place with suppressing fire from automatic weapons, then use guided shells from mortars to kill them.
Have he never heard of counter-battery radars? If you rely only on mortars, then a competent enemy will just deploy those alongside batteries of MRLSs. Now you will have to use mortar carries that can both move reasonably fast and can survive a strike from one of those batteries. Otherwise you won't have any mortars after a time.
I guess flash suppressors are also a novel technology for him. Of course there are direction finders now that detect the sound of shooting, but they don't seem to be as big of a problem as counter-battery radars.
Is he expecting to fight an army of retards? You should hide from potential enemy observation even if there doesn't seem to be any enemy activity. And does he really want to argue that enemy soldiers will hide if you employ small arms fire, but they will be running in the open if your favourite tactic is calling in indirect fire?

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So burdening down infantry logistics will ease the problem with vehicles? Or what are you arguing for? If an unit is running low of ammo, fuel and food, then it will break rather quickly. If it runs low of filters and lubricants, then their mobility will be compromised on the long run. One of these problems needs immediate remedy, the other one can wait a few days if worst comes to worst. Guess which one is which.
I will be honest, I don't understand this question. If you want to test my knowledge of engineering, then ask relevant questions. But even so, this is a question of logistics and firefights, even if engineering plays a role in it.
Prove that I'm not a 50 years old Chilean petrochemical engineer working on general purpose lubricants, who just happens to be posting from a Hungarian VPN. Flags are kind of a mistake for such small and slow boards.

You can't just up and make a gun like that. You have to decide what role it's supposed to fill and what deficiency existing weapons have that it would correct. Are you looking for a sniper rifle, a shotgun, or something else? One thing I think needs some work is that existing DMRs are too damn heavy. There's a need for a much lighter DMR, and Zig Forums should be able to help with this. Shotgun specialty shells are another potential area of interest.

So you pretty much want this? thefirearmblog.com/blog/2018/07/09/soviet-experimental-6mm-sniper-rifle-tkb-0145s/

(OP)
4.5x26R

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No, it's not belt-fed and isn't set up for full auto. But even if it was, I'm rather sure that you'd need polymer cases for it to work, because they both make the cartridges lighter and shield the gun from most of the heat that comes from firing. Combine it with a lower RoF for automatic fire in the 240-300 rounds/minute range, and it's unlikely for the weapon to overheat. The lower RoF also makes the weapon a lot more controlable in full auto, and so you could actually use it in close quarters. It also makes the same ammount of ammunition last a lot longer. Also, that weapon is way too long, you'd need to optimize the cartridge for a ~50cm long barrel, and the overall lenght of the weapon shouldn't exceed the 60-75cm range. To make polymer cases work you'd need to make them telescopic, and that requires a weapon with a fixed bolt and a moving breech. Which is great, because it also shortens the length of the weapon quite a bit, as the breech only moves vertically, and the cartridge is shorter, and so the breech is shorter too. Really, a polymer-cased telescopoc cartridge is the cornerstone of this concept.

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So it's more like an AIWS then?

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I've always wondered if it's possible to make a battery-sparked, propane-powered shotgun that's more than just a potato cannon toy. Maybe similar in form factor to those 50cal air rifles.

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Yes, that's it! I somehow forgot about that weapon, but indeed, it's pretty close baed on what little information is out there. Although the cartridge is still not up to snuff.

I'm assuming you'd rather use a mechanism similar to the Steyr ACR wich is less complicated. I'm guessing you are the same guy that spergs over that thing.

Why would a rifle need to be belt fed tough?

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You'd need wadding of somesort as well as a backstop for it.

The future is urban warfare. It requires a small rifle that can be supressed, hold at least 30 rounds and has a caliber strong enough to punk through most vests.

is it doable Zig Forums?

VSS or anything in 9x39

...

Belt fed is best fed. Also, this:

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You're just describeing smgs dumbass

Well i can't say i'm not interested to know how that feed system is going to work. Even if this wierd gun of yours is an insane idea.

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I'm working on it. The biggest limitation is getting enough oxygen. My current design uses an under-barrel bike pump to keep the combustion chamber small.
There may also be a lower velocity ceiling compared to gunpowder, but I'm pretty confident that it can hit normal rifle speeds.

The US slapped an MG42 feed system onto an FG42.
That didn't end well so they took a step back and made the M60 instead.

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How would that realistic work?

The U.S. military already has the fearsome triad: 5.56x45; 7.62x51; and 300 Win Mag. This new design would have to perform the tasks of all of these cartridges.

Also if the lower reciever easily seperated from the upper reciever by removing a couple of pins, allowing for quick changes between barrel lengths and even calibers. Something along the lines of the Stoner/Sullivan/Fremont pattern.

H&K 416 w/14.5 inch barrel. Basically a piston-driven M4.

While not anything revolutionary I have been thinking about a modernised STEN lately, direct blowback 9mm firing from a closed bolt made as cheap as possible while capable of a 6 inch group @ 100m.
Through modern casting and stamping methods I think such a thing could be mass produced extremely cheaply and be a worth while development for any nation to keep up their sleeve if SHTF.

I think you mean PDW there boss.

The idea of a magazine-fed revolver is something I can't let go of. Forget the trounds, but in theory it would work well with polymer-cased ammo, because that has to be supported from all sides. And with the limited space it's better to make it as long and thin as possible. Also, the chamber would be directly on top of the magazine, therefore you could shorten the barrel that much. Of course, the problem of loading is still there, so either you'd have to make a detachable magazine that has no feed-lips but still retains the cartridges (like the Madsen or the Johnson lmg); or go retro-futuristic with stripper clips.

Or have a magazine that uses a lever to hold cartridges in the magazine until the lever is released through insertion, like the Farquhar Hill.

I think the whole "tround" thing would have caught on if it was just a piece of plastic you placed a standard round into, they fucked up by going proprietary.

u rite, my b.

That's exactly what the Madsen and the Johnson use.

The idea was that this would be lighter and better at utilizing space. If you stuck a normal cartridge into a triangular piece of plastic, then you make it heavier and bulkier. Although maybe they should have tried to make it fire competely unmodified .38 special. But then the whole point of this pistol was to sell the idea of the tround, so that would have been detrimental to their goals.

Honestly, I'd like to see if you could make such an open chamber magazine-fed revolver work with something like 10mm Auto. Yes, you'd have problems with sealing the chamber, and it offers nothing over a semi-auto pistol, but it would work as a proof-of-concept, and it would be perfect to see if it's even possible to solve all the issues with this design.

But what does the little button on the side do?

strange round.
how does a 9mm round that doesn't break 1,000 fps penetrate body armor?

salt railguns?

Just modernise the owens gun. The STEN is a cheap pos for a reason, also there is a closed bolt modifiaction to appease the ATF.

Its the core. Ain't basic lead.

I assume civilians won't get the AP core?

We're getting standard training leadcore stuff from wolf

Okay, but only because you have dubs.

The device is a bullpup pistol sidearm with integral silencer. The chamber is 30 mm in caliber. The integral silencer guarantees that the slug is thrown with no sonic boom.

The purpose is to produce a large wound channel that will be fatal with even one hit. The silencer is there to guarantee that this can be used inside sealed vehicles and tight corridors without deafening the user.

I was actualy assuming the Hungarian meant a system where you would have a drum or box mag with an ammo belt inside wich you could load as fast and easy as a normal magazine.

Why not just make a revolver where the cylinder operates like a normal magazine? Instead of having to painstakingly reload each round into the cylinder when they're used up, or even using a speedloader, you can just swap the old cylinder out for a fully loaded one. I don't think the idea of trounds is necessarily a bad one, either. I remember there was some revolver in Deus Ex that uses trounds, and it looked from the design like the whole cylinder was made of trounds, like it was just a pack of ammo arranged in a certain way that held it together. Why not make it a revolving rifle as long as you're going overboard with revolver stuff?

Indeed, although lately I'm thinking about ammo backpacks quite a lot, but that too would work with this system.

The point is not to make a better revolver, but a pistol that uses polymer-cased ammunition. It just seems stupid to switch to polymer cases for long arms, yet keep metallic cartridges for pistols. Of course it's not likely that the switch will happen anytime soon, but I like distract myself by speculating about similar things. With that said, this video has a few interesting bits, one of them is that an expert recommended fixing the pistol by using some of the gases to rotate the cylinder. And if you think about it, an annular gas piston would work quite well in a pistol. Also, after playing around with some drawings, it dawned upon me that this cylinder really needs trounds to work.

Pistols see very little use, furthermore the weight savings are minimal in the case of a pistol since very little ammunition is carried relative to a rifle/MG. It would also require a shift away from muh Browning tilting barrel.
Also see:

Have been thinking of a CT pistol myself, tough i have yet to come up that isn't a scaled down Steyr ACR or some wierd fallout 1-2 10mm pistol style mag fed revolver.

I know that pistols aren't even second but third line weapons, and they should be issued to pencil pushers and law enforcement. But still, that doesn't mean that we should just forget about them.
Also, that report is from 1996, and deals with the issue that the various laboratories of the US government couldn't produce a working heavy machine gun or autocannon that used cased telescopic ammo. One of their goals was to reach ~1500m/s muzzle velocity with those weapons, so it's a bit outside of the area of small arms. There is LSAT after all, a program that produced working ammunition and weapons. They might be not perfect, but they are already here.

Yes, if the chamber slides downward then you have to three choices:
Now the ammunition can't be longer than half the grip, as the other half is taken up by the chamber. Pistol ammo is already short and fat, so you might have to make it even shorter and fatter.
You either have to make the pistol rather long at the back (essentially make some kind of a nearly bullpup abomination); or make it slide backwards in an angle. In either case, it would have to eject backwards, so you'd most likely have to put some kind of an ejection device behind the chamber to redirect the spent casing.
This might work, as it take away space from the barrel, but that is true for traditional pistol too. After all, the chamber is forward of the grip in them too. You'd just have to use a lever or something to make the ammunition go forward into the chamber. It will also eject forward, so one less problem.

Now, the last one might work, but it isn't that much an improvement in my opinion. As I said, if you use trounds with a rotating chamber over the grip, then you can both utilize the full length of the grip for the cartridge, and also make the pistol shorter with the same barrel length, as the chamber is more backwards than in a traditional or moving chamber pistol. And it ejects to the side.

Hadn't considered that first option actually, generally with the third for simplicity. I did figure out the ejection on the second option wich is a type of hatch-like ejector/dust cover that ejects the casings out the side, wich i tend to use on most of my CT designs tough i dislike this backward feed on a pistol. I also jet to figure out a slide catch on backward feed systems, from as far as i can see it might be impossible without making the gun overcomplicated.

then we don't get the benefit of the round

Nothing stopping you from not lathing a not brass bullet.

My vote is for rockets for drones. Drones could easily hold rockets fully capable of taking out a large mammal, useful for hunting, of course, and even automatically (did you know drones can perform facial recognition, and it's not cpu intensive?) Bonus, make the rockets smart (ie laser guided or otherwise directed)

So the "gun" would be a drone launcher (using propellant and a temporary "flight" stage, wings jettisoned, air braking by achieving a near right angle to the surface, "up" oriented away from momentum, the "shot" (the drone) achieving hover, then as designated by the drone launcher operator perform duties (either fpv-slave mode, or automated strategies, FOF being improbable of such systems, expect them as deactivatable area denial devices. Termination of area denial duties shall result in ecrypted confirmation code being broadcast by the "shot" (the drone)). Obviously, many hundreds can be launched by a single drone launcher operator. Control can be ceded, acquired from others, from/by the drone launcher operator.

A smaller model shall contain only a small number of drones, or more inferior ones, to replace the standard grenade.

In many fire fights, the larger drone launcher shall prove a worthy successor of rifles.

Other than a lathe.

With a flag like that?

To make a "new gun" that's worth a damn, we need a new problem that can't be solved with our current guns. Right now, the light, intermediate cartridge semi/full auto carbine does just about everything we need for common issues.

Or do you mean new manners of solving problems we already solved?

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That there flag is what you call a "VPN".

However, since you asked.

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but I know that he was an agent, not wanting us to progress in our technology

Nuclear AT-4, like a baby davy crocket.

I took that video and made this.
Here's the situation, how do you proceed?

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wut?

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How about a pepperbox revolver with self-contained cartridges? By self-contained cartridges I mean stuff that doesn't need a barrel to work, and so the revolver doesn't have barrels to begin with, just short chambers to hold the cartridges. A few ideas for what it could shoot:
The Russians have those cartridges in which a piston drives out the bullet, and so no gases escape from it. You can read more about them here:
forgottenweapons.com/russian-silent-ammunition/
You don't need that much energy to destroy a typical lock, and it looks like even a shotgun without a barrel would have more than enough energy for that. And there is even a 7.62mm NATO breeching bullet now. Therefore I think you could make one for this weapon too.
Gas, rubber, flashbang (?), whatever you want. These don't need too much energy if you want to use them close and personal, and so you could load them into self-contained cartridges.

I imagine a rather small five shot pepperbox revolver that is designed to use moonclips and has a detachable stock. You could use the sealed and nonlethal cartridges without the stock and put it on if you want to use it for breaching.

Also, you could base the cartridges on .410 shotgun shells with steel walls. You are free to vary their length as much as you want, and it could give access to a variety of commerical cartridges.

Why is there a huge blank space on the left wall? Can I come around from the other side and shoot through the wall? But anyway, we need a whole thread full of tactical scenarios like this, as well as invasion plans, defense plans, and other things of a more strategic bent.

At that point you should just get a pike because it'll have longer range.

Did you stop reading after the first two sentences? It's supposed to fire cartridges that are used in situations where a pike would be way too long. Have you ever tried to to destroy the lock of a door with a pike while being indoors?

just how high are you?

We already have shotguns for breaching. There's no need for anything else. A new type of gun should either combine several functions that you couldn't get all in one weapon with currently existing guns, or it should perform a single function substantially better than currently existing guns.

This combines a breaching, a nonlethal and a silenced gun into one weapon, therefore it fits the criteria. A shotgun seems to be needlessly big and complicated to use it just for breaching.

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Blue section should be "trigger for the laser sight" The thing that allowed the gun to be carried cocked is a little tab (on the other side?).

Shotguns can already perform all of those functions just by loading different rounds in them, and they perform much better in a firefight.

From what I understand the technical problems with gyrojets was the inconsistency of powder burn combined with fairly high twist from the nozzles. The twist could be replaced with fin stabilization, but powder consistency might be more of an issue.

Well, you could use a .410 revolver from Taurus for this, but then you'd be limited by the length of the cylinder, and the whole thing would be unnecessarily heavy. Also, who the hell uses shotguns in firefights any more? They are only used for breaching.

Shouldn't you start with the new kind of projectile it'll be firing?

People defending their homes against fine urban youths who were going to church and trying to get their lives straightened out, and are certainly not of any particular color.

I wish you could fire RPGs out of a shotgun like a rifle grenade.

So, you read my post about a breacher's and assassin's gun, and though "Yes, this is exactly what people would want to use to defend their homes, and it's certainly not a sidearm for soldiers and spies!"?

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I was just being cheeky. Realistically one guy in a fire team will have a shotgun for breaching, but if you get in a firefight you're going to fight with whatever you've got. The actual advantages of a shotgun are mostly wrapped up in specialty rounds, many of which would be very difficult to use or would lose a great deal of effectiveness without a barrel. Slugs are probably the most common example, since a slug allows you to duplicate some of the functions of a rifle with a shotgun and give wicked armor penetration that only the heaviest rifle rounds can match, which is something your sidearm will never be able to do. Another, less common example is a Dragon's Breath round, though that's never actually been deployed in battle yet.

Something inbetween machine gun and assault rifle?

Perhaps an emergency grenade launcher…

Because I'm lazy.
Alright