Alright Zig Forums I'm trying to decide to either build an imbel fal or buy a ptr91. I want a shtf battle rifle. What should I do and why?
Build fal or buy ptr
Eh, I'd go with the G3 PTR tbh. Cheaper and more common parts/mags. Also less to go wrong in periods of extended use due to no real lockup or gas piston.
British SLRs had to be refitted with new gas plugs after years of use due to the gas port eroding, which can't happen on the G3.
Or get a .308 AK like the Zastava M77
Build imbel fal. More accurate, much more comfortable to shoot, can reload your brass, easy to install optics.
Ptr has to be modded to have a quasi paddle mag release and it's just not as nice a gun.
Owning both FAL and PTR its hard to choose. I'll have to agree with both of the previous posters, G3 parts are all universal so there is no problems with compatibility of parts for any variant, extremely reliable, tough design even with a stamped receiver, a rugged tried and true battle design.
Cons for the design is that many don't like the way it handles recoil, short and snappy, quick and hard. But, if you get used to it you can master the quick recoil impulse and control it well. As for PTR in general my 2014 gun had a CROOKED FRONT SIGHT that the niggers WELDED ON so its permanently canted. Good job guys. I managed to adjust the rear sight to make it good enough to pop balloons at 200 yards iron sights, but then their rear sight never sits still even when its tightened down, so that's miserable. You should probably get a mount for it anyhow and optics. Other PTR complaint was the recoil buffer was Grade A dogshit. Punched so hard it was miserable. Difficult to control. Replaced the plastic furniture with wood from old Bundeswehr stocks and with a Bunde buffer, now its a reliable, accurate, easy to control gun. Also no bolt lock open when empty.
The FAL has its adjustable gas system, it too can be reliable and accurate, many prefer its slow and easy recoil, and yeah it doesn't throw brass into the next state/province like the G3, doesn't beat the every loving fucking shit out of your brass like the G3 for reloading. Its got great natural balance, easy to handle, beautiful in the hands and has great natural fit and feel. Bolt lock open on empty magazine Can't go wrong with one really.
But we have the lack of interchangable parts because of the inch/metric shit, H&K guns kept specs tight even with other companies that licensed them. G3 magazines are still cheap and plentiful, FAL magazines are sparse and expensive, PLUS you have to find the right one for your pattern rifle. Complaints about poor American built receivers as of late have been raised, some for general function and reliability, others for magazine fit. My DSA 58 seems pretty damn nice even as a brand new recent build. But with receiver shortages you may have to buy one that others have warned people about.
its a tough choice, both are great rifles if built well. I'd say its so close that it comes down to personal preference or other considerations. Do what I did: buy both.
Both are a better choice than AR10's (many are junk, lack of compatible parts, use different magazines, never a successful design compared to its little brother) CETME's on the market which seem to be inaccurate, and a Zastava M77 is so rare where are you going to find common parts? You are on the right rack with the two considerations you have chosen.
I'm a newfag to Zig Forums after being on 4chan for several years BEFORE the election. Thank you guys for quality responses.
PTR is a complete rifle, is more reliable, and more accurate. It's also cheaper to obtain and operate. If you want something better as a battle rifle, there are AR variants, and even the SCAR if you're a rich fag.
That's going to be my daily limit of trolling for one day
A .308 AR? Yeah, they've gotten better in the last ten years. So much so that the SASS rifle is such a variant. They're reliable as hell, and can be much more accurate so they can be employed DMR roles. Just because you're a memeing faggot doesn't mean they're not good rifles, which are actually up to date with shit needed on the battlefield. If you're a rifchfag, go for a SCAR. Nobody is going to tell you it isn't better. It just isn't cheap.
The SASS being an AR-variant has more to do with the fact that the US' main service rifle is also an AR-variant.
I agree that AR-10s and SCARs are good options, but OP is asking about something for SHTF specifically. AR-10s aren't really standardised like G3s are, so parts are not as common and more expensive. They also need things like gas rings after a few years of use, which are easy to come by now, but wouldn't be in a SHTF scenario.
don't even worry about brass ammo because the delayed-blow back will mangle it beyond reloadability. Stock up on the steel shit, that and mags.
and the G3 really doesn't kick that bad. An AR-10 kicks far worse.
and don't go cheap and buy the century arms c308, that is a dogshit rifle
Ive been hearing shit about how quality of the DS FALs, so I'm almost thinking about building a FAL but the hoops the law wants you to jump through is fucking ridiculous especially hearing shit about the quality of some parts. Would you guys rather buy one or build one and any suggestions on companies for it. preferring the look and style of a certain country's arm of choice
Well, you're certainly right about the SHTF scenario, which I kind of left out. However, G3 derivatives also need things like rollers and checking the bolt gap. No weapon is maintenance free. Pick your poison. I say this as a guy that owns a PTR91 as my only battle rifle. I posted it here:
you build AR's, you don't build G3's and FAL's, that's something you buy.
There are plenty of people that built FALs. Also that's not how you use apostrophes.
In terms of cold war battle rifles
AR10 > G3 > FAL >>>> M14
As much as people like the FAL, its weight, poor sight placement (who the fuck thought it was a good idea to put the rear sight on the lower receiver?), poor optics mounting options, and metric/imperial parts incompatibility make it an inferior choice compared to the G3. The G3 isn't without its disadvantages though, the biggest being the sensitivity of gun and ammo modifications on the timing of the bolt unlocking, there are stories of G3 receivers being destroyed due to suppressor use because the user didn't change the locking piece.
I am unsure of the build quality of US made G3 and FAL clones so there is also that to consider.
Modern "AR10s" also have issues, namely they are heavy compared to genuine AR10s and utilise several different types magazines. The issue with SCARs is that they are expensive.
build fal. dont give those lying niggers at dsa or coonan any money.
glad I triggered you
are they a better option than the other rifles you mentioned, though? I see them going for around $2,800, is that an appropriate price?
those basic modern AR-10's with the plastic AR-shit handguards and 16" pencil barrels kick so much because they're light relative to the .308 chambering.
huh? G3 is known for being the most insensitive, brutal rifle out there. The delayed blow-back will cycle anything.
SCAR is pure meme, ignore it.
I know the rollers can wear and stuff, but compared to gas port wear or gas ring wear, I think it's less of an issue in the long run. And even then, spare G3 bolts or rollers will be more common than the FAL or AR-10 parts (unless AR-10 gas rings are just AR-15 gas rings, but I have no idea).
That's why you get an SLR that can take pretty much all metric parts and magazines while preventing the Euros from using your imperial parts in their own metric guns in case they capture your rifle :^)
Eh, the scar is kind of a meme, it's just a weird .308 AR-18 type thing. It doesn't really have any advantages over just getting a good piston AR-10 for a lot less money and more parts compatibility.
Or be a good goy and but the .308 Galil ACE
Any suggestions on what I should look for / avoid parts wise if I build the FAL? Id rather not fuck myself too badly on parts picking
G3>FAL>MAS49>M14>Howa Type 64> AR10
Dunno, only thing I hear is that the Imbel parts kits are good as well as cheap and available. Be interesting to hear what more serious builders would have to say, people seem to have built all sorts of FAL's to good success with many different kits from all over.
Okay, I checked a few things, figured an imbel parts kit sans receiver, with the US parts being the receiver probably DSA because I don't have much choice/heard Coonan had awful customer service if shit goes South, wood furniture (buttstock, pistol grip, handguards), and the magazines themselves.
Anything seem out of place or any tips from here?
A DPMS AR10 with a 16" fluted barrel and carbon foregrip is still heavier than my Dutch made AR10 with its 20" finned barrel.
Just because it will cycle anything doesn't mean that a particular combination of barrel length, locking piece, ammo, and suppressor wont cause excessive bolt velocity. Delayed blowback guns open at a set time after the trigger is pulled and if the chamber pressure is excessively high at that point due any one of a number of factors then damage can occur over time as the bolt group slams into the back of the receiver faster than intended (remember there are only two pins holding the end plate onto the receiver). Its similar to the change in powder which contributed to the reliability issues suffered by the M15 in Vietnam, the slower burning powder the US army switched to (in order to save a few cents per round) ended up causing the pressure at the gas port to double which greatly increased the bolt carrier velocity and chamber pressure at extraction, which in combination with the lack of cleaning kits lead to guns jamming in the field.
The SCAR is kind of a weird fusion of existing designs combined with modern manufacturing, it has the tappet gas system from the M1 Carbine and M14, the Johnson/AR10/AR15/etc bolt design, uses an extruded aluminium upper and polymer lower, etc. Its a decent gun from what I have seen but I can't comment on the appropriate price since everything is overpriced in my country so my frame of reference is fucked.
The AR10 was used people who actually had a choice in the gun they carried into battle while everything else was used by people who didn't. Just a reminder that the same people who chose to adopt the M14 over the AR10 (despite the AR10 being vastly superior in trials) are the same people who lost a war to Vietnamese peasants.
Now you listen here, you Australian colony, we had beaten back the Tet Offensive. Had most of our population not been a testbed for MK Ultra and communist propaganda, we would have had the NVA surrendering.
At least we got back at the Soviet with Afghanistan
Not Noricano shit.
Retarded 56%ers will never stop living in fantasy land, hm?
So you are saying the people who chose the M14 over the AR10 and the FN FAL (and the FAL is a far greater rifle than the AR10) were fools who lost Vietnam, and these were the same assholes that threw the M14 overboard for the M16, so by your logic, the M16 was a huge mistake. The people who made the choice to pick that M16 lost Vietnam, therefore the M16 was a mistake. Glad we're on the same page.
The Germans had a choice of which battle rifle to use. They chose the FAL and didn't keep it because of manufacturing licensing and all that, so they kept searching and came the G2 and realized the AR10 was shit and then went to Spain to go retrieve their own gun design from the end of WW2 to create the G3. The West German military had the choice,and they threw the AR10 away like a wet diaper. Funny that if the AR10 was so great that everyone still chose the FN FAL and the G3 instead. Huh.
When Americans choose the AR10 its hardly an objective choice considering the amount of pressure and direction given to them. Soldiers are filled with propaganda, they aren't given the choice of what rifle they like or not, their "love" of the rifle and its worship is instilled in them like every other thoughtless drill in training. They are pushed to buy modern AR10's because "Murica's Rifle", everything is done to push an American designed rifle (FUCK Garand, that Kanuckistani foreigner) and many people for whom its the only platform they have ever shot. From the beginning the platform has had nothing but luck and blind support to FORCE it to work, and its always gotten ahead for the wrong reasons.
H&K only chose Stoner's design for their new rifles in order to try to win US contracts, that's it. Luckily for H&K they were never going to switch rifles, and this little ploy means we all have to suffer Eugene's legacy.
But, let's not forget your logic, friend. Garand's rifle helped win WW2 and Korea. The AR platform seems to lose every war it's used in. Careful with that logic friend, its a logical fallacy.
Other poster was right, we could have won and chose not to. THESE are the same clowns that needed the 5.56 and the new plastic guns. If anything your logic proves that the new kids on the block who can't win wars are the ones who choose the magic plastic black gun. The boys who lost Vietnam were the same ones who thought the AR was space age perfection, and the same people who pushed it onto troops who didn't need it or want it before it was ready and killed men in the field. The same men who ended the Springfield Armory so they could push union UAW Colt, now tell me, how is Colt doing, and which bankruptcy are they on over the last 30 year period?
If anything friend, your logic defeats your own argument.
will fatmericans ever learn?
All I know is that I have guns and you do not.
You realise your reactions are the reason why it keeps getting posted, right?
user, why tell them that? It's more fun letting them sperg uncontrollably.
t. Tyrone Goldman-Rodriguez
Because it doesn't matter if people say "I am only saying this to get a rise out of you" every post, autists will still just not be able to help themselves
Americans should be banned from Zig Forums to be honest.
Good idea tbh. Won't affect anyone smart enough to use a VPN but the tards would be filtered out.
Why is the BO such a fucking faggot that he hasn't range-banned all US IP addresses?
Hell, at least change the US flag to a mutt flag, the kike flag, or a piece of shit.
Nice fatfuck 56%mutt you posted there.
Go choke on a greaseburger while jerking off to israel.
Amerimutts don't belong here. Hell, amerimutts would be better off without guns. Civilized Europeans deserve more right than your kind.
Probably underage noguns still hopped up on the 'muh ancestors' shit thinking they can weasel their way back to yurop or whatever. Same old summer shit just with a different flavor.
At least Europeans as a whole are still whiter than you, jamal.
no it wasn't, it's from a study that showed that the US was 56% non-hispanic white in 2015. that's actually probably 52% because of the 2% jews and 2% moslems they would have been counted as white. So 52%, 3 years ago. we could be a minority now and certainly will be by 2020
>we deserve rights
Fight for them, fag. And that's General Herbert "Stormin" Norman Schwarzkopf, you fag.
No. The receiver is the thing that DSA/coonan fuck up the most. Get an imported receiver and then have the cosmetic parts (handguard, grip and such be 922r if you feel like complying).
Well shit, have any suggestions for a part to make compliant? I'd probably not give a shit, but I own a dog. Any part I could deal with being American beyond mags, and the furniture? I guess I'd just find an imbel receiver
You need six parts total IIRC. Magazine gets you one, handguard was mentioned already. I don't know if there are good US made triggers for the FAL but if there are, that gives you another three parts. But in general furniture is best because it affects actual function the least.
Yeah, from what I saw with magazines, unless shit changed, count for like 3, and I was going with handguards, buttstock, and pistol grip was my other three, since receivers are fucked for US I figured I would try going for something that either doesn't affect function or wouldn't be a bitch to put in.
Does anybody actually know of anyone getting fucked up on a 922r technicality? If so, was it because they were trying to get them fucked in the first place and it was a technical excuse?
The newer ones come with a paddle release
Still 1 loss (Vietnam) and 1 half loss (Korea) for your 1 win (Afghanistan) :^)
Yea but only poorfags care about Norinco shit.
k dude, whatever you say.
If you want an FAL, build it or buy one already assembled on an foreign receiver. It may actually be cheaper with the price of tooling and virgin uppers to buy one of the Century ban rifles built on an IMBEL upper and alter it to look how you want than to try to find a kit and receiver separately (just make sure it hasn't been bubba'd before you buy it). Surplus mags are your only reliable feeding option, and they cost $20-$30 depending on the condition and country of origin.
PTR 91s can be had for under $1000, magazines which are perfectly serviceable are under $5.00, and you probably won't have to perform any extensive modifications to get it configured how you want it. I do recommend that you get one with a paddle release and an adjustable stock if you're not a big guy.
well I wouldn't know about the "dutch made" original AR-10, but I can certainly tell you that those ar-10's you call "heavy" are far lighter than a G3 or FAL and kick more than a 300 win mag bolt gun.
I can see how the suppressor would cause a problem with the pressure imbalance, but there isn't enough marginal difference in .308 ammo performance to nullify the robust blow-back system of that gun, nor barrel length. I know, I used to own one. You could send wolf, ppu, remington corelokt, hornady, silver tip through it, it didn't matter, it all shot and ejected the same.
and the suppressor problem isn't specific to the G3, AR's for example need an adjustable gas block to compensate for the higher pressure introduced by the suppressor, otherwise the same problem of receiver and bolt damage will occur.
just fucking face it, you don't have any hands on experience with a G3
it's a fucking meme gun
no argument from me here, m14 is perhaps the ultimate Fudd gun. It's only use now is for californians to be able to have fucking something to shoot.
dude just fucking buy the PTR-91. Building these old-school battlerifles is nothing like building an AR for rather obvious reasons. By the time you get done hectoring and "milling" and beating the honeypotant shit together, you'll have spent 5000 bucks in life energy.
meant to say d.i.s.c.o.r.d.a.n.t as in the actual word but got wordfiltered because of the fag site lol wew
Norinco is absolute dogshit, $1,000 plus mak-90's are the purest example of gun community kikery
straya we later got fucked by the same hajis we installed, better to harass us for that ;)
tbh buy a new PTR with paddle mag release or find a pre made fal on an imbel receiver made by a non retard.
The original AR10s are close to 7lb while modern AR10s start at around 8.5lb.
That wasn't what I was arguing, the point I was trying to make is there is a reason why H&K made a dozen or so different locking pieces for the G3 and the armourers manual had a section dedicated to selecting the appropriate one for a particular application.
I am not saying that the G3 or other delayed blowback guns are bad, but its not like my AR15 which I can feed everything from 110gr supersonic loads all the way to 235gr subsonic loads with or without a suppressor and without changing a thing and not have to worry about if its going to cycle correctly.
Not all AR's need an adjustable gas block to properly run a suppressor.
You shouldn't have gone back, would have been better to invade Saudi Arabia instead.
build a cetme instead
We still get to import them so are prices are not artificially high
Wouldn't a M1 do better if your looking for reliability?
If there is one clear advantage of the delayed roller is reliability, G3/HK 91/PTR have an edge in this in every regard, on par with AK and some might even argue superior in some respects. The hard, harsh, strong action rips up brass, flings it all over, helps prevent it from having a bolt hold open on empty magazine, but it slams rounds into battery reliably even after fouling and whatever else gets into the weapon. No gas system to foul or worry about, simple mechanism. In my opinion the greatest argument to carry one is reliability.
Its one of the main reasons why my home defense rifle out in the country is my PTR91. Its the most likely to work, its the least likely to not go into battery when I use my thumb to let the bolt slam violently forward. I would trust all three of my battle rifles for defense, but I just trust the G3 a little more.
I got a CETME with 20 mags for 830 burger bucks, it's century though
Jesus Christ, someone people just don't know when to cut and run.
I've heard that both AK47s and cetme rifles are among the easier to build from scratch. Very different process to assembling an AR-15, but not too much tooling or experience needed.
There was valuable discussion in this thread once, so I'm bumping against the slide because I want to build something that isn't armalite related, some day.
I've built AK's and have been looking into building cetmes. Ak's are more about the drill press whereas cetmes are more about the welder.
Ak building costs a lot in tools but after 5 or 6 builds it evens out. Cetme tool costs are cheaper and kits are pretty cheap. Just have to be a good welder or good with a grinder for the cetme.
what parts did you actually make? Just the receiver or internals as well? How hard are they to make? With a CNC or plasma cutter?
I buy the receivers finished so I can transfer them without an issue. The rest is an original parts kit that I needed to reassemble and rivet together. But flats can be bought and bent into shape and then the proper holes drilled and cut depending on the variant. As you get better and learn how to do more the parts kits get cheaper as less is done for you by the vendor like headspacing or refinishing.
By flat I mean a receiver flat. Its the same concept as an 80% ar15 receiver. The tools I use the most are a simple drill press, toth barrel tool and rivet jaws
You can buy them pre-bent. Cuts down on tooling needs, as mostly it's just drilling – and more of it, to make up for not needing a jig. Then you have to weld the rails (for the magazine? Not sure) or if you're cheap, you can steel-epoxy some metal screws instead of welding the rails.
…as I understand it…
Whoops, sorry i didn't pay attention you typed "build" and not "made" or "machined" which i assumed. I'm interested in gun operation, engineering, projecting and smithing, though i've got little means of learning outside of theory now, which is why i asked about it.
Also, are there any machined receivers for G3? I've found this when looking about stamped ones but there's little info on them, look solid and have a rail by default though.
Any recommendations as to where I can purchase a decent lower and jig?
He fell for the 56% meme. What a smoothbrain
Would the 6.5 Grendel meme (for an AR-15) be a good substitute for a .308 butter rifle? Or am I not taking into account that .308 ammo would be more plentiful?
The rails welded inside the ak receiver are for the bolt to ride on and also assists with the ejection of the casing. Spot welding is the best way to do those but tig would also work. I don't recommend screws for the rails as it would interfere with bolt operation.
A company named Fed Arms in the US used to make cast g3 receivers but they were poorly made and finished.
.308 will be more plentiful for a while but I think 6.5 grendel will become a more popular over time after it becomes a military cartridge. When it becomes a military cartridge expect supply to dry up as manufacturers rush to fill those contracts. Then there will be overruns and unsold lots of it. Of course then rifles in 6.5 gren will be in short supply.
There's actually a couple places that sell 80% receivers with the rails welded in already: