What was the apostolic catholic church like before the west-east schism? What was the liturgy like? Prayers? Any books on this period?
What was the apostolic catholic church like before the west-east schism? What was the liturgy like? Prayers...
Sebastian Adams
Dominic Lewis
Independent Fundamental đź…±aptist
Luis White
So true bro
Lincoln Jenkins
Countless examples could be cited from Church history, but let me cite perhaps the earliest example, which is found in the Martyrdom of Polycarp, St. Polycarp was the bishop of Smyrna, ans a disciple of the Apostle John. His martyrdom was written down soon after he was martyred, around the year 160 a.d.. At the end of his martyrdom we not only see an example of the veneration of relics, but also an explanation of the difference between the worship due to God alone, and the veneration we should give to the saints. We are told of how some sought to have the Roman magistrate keep the Christians from retrieving the body of the Holy Martyr
"'lest,' so it was said, 'they should abandon the crucified one and begin to worship this man'—this being done at the instigation and urgent entreaty of the Jews, who also watched when we were about to take it from the fire, not knowing that it will be impossible for us either to forsake at any time the Christ who suffered for the salvation of the whole world of those that are saved—suffered though faultless for sinners—nor to worship any other. For Him, being the Son of God, we adore, but the martyrs as disciples and imitators of the Lord we cherish as they deserve for their matchless affection towards their own King and Teacher…. The centurion therefore, seeing the opposition raised on the part of the Jews, set him in the midst and burnt him after their custom. And so we afterwards took up his bones which are more valuable than precious stones and finer than refined gold, and laid them in a suitable place; where the Lord will permit us to gather ourselves together, as we are able, in gladness and joy, and to celebrate the birth-day [i.e. the anniversary] of his martyrdom for the commemoration of those that have already fought in the contest, and for the training and preparation of those that shall do so hereafter" (The Martyrdom of Polycarp 17:2-3; 18:1-3).
Sounds "baptist" to you?
Mason Watson
Are you an idiot? Did the 🅱️ emoji not tip you off to the fact that he was memeing?
Shut up
Eli Powell
All liturgy in every church is more or less structured in a similar way: en.wikipedia.org
If you look closely at any Orthodox, Catholic, Lutheran, or Anglican liturgy the structure is very similar. This is not an accident.
Anthony Sullivan
Oh, also, before Trent in the west, some variation was common in liturgy structure (order, omit a thing or two) but the overall two part structure was universal. The Coptic Church still has three possible liturgies. You could take a look at these - they are likely very old. copticchurch.net
Ryder Taylor
any books that deal with this era? i'd just like to know what the general culture was like
John Stewart
Bro just admit it Jesus was a baptist give up
Lucas King
Let me give an earlier example
Does that sound “Catholic” to you?
Justin Gonzalez
I wasn't really asking about Baptist vs Apostolic, more about the history of the church from Nicea to the schism.
I'll take books about proto-IFB if you have some to suggest and aren't memeing.
Ayden Baker
I have a book bro it’s called the BIBLE. *stephen Anderson dabs*
David Flores
Please don't shit up my thread.
Gavin Jackson
They hated him because he told them the truth…
Aaron Scott
by that logic the Jews of biblical time are exactly the same as the Jews of today
Connor Howard
bro I hope you’re not actually mad. that would just be too funny
Colton Wilson
they actually believe this
Jordan Hughes
Try these:
amazon.com
amazon.com
They're in my wish list but I haven't checked them out yet.
While the Liturgies have changed somewhat over the years, it's been mostly evolutionary, from what I've studied. St. John Chrysostom would see that the Liturgy named after him was different than anything he did in some ways but he would still recognize it both as a Liturgy and the various parts.
Probably by about 700 AD most of the modern forms were pretty fixed, including Lectionaries and the Propers. It was about this time that Rome tried to promulgate the Roman Rites but Gallican etc. still hung around, England had its own forms that continued through High Church Anglican to this century, and Trent really just standardized a few things but essentially it was the same Roman Rite from the 500s. Mozarabic is pretty much an evolution in isolation of Roman Rites from the 700s but disconnected for obvious reasons (mudslimes).
It actually took longer, and was later in history, that the Byzantine East suppressed the Liturgies of Mark and St James and replaced them with St John's, but they still are used in special occasions.
Dylan Ortiz
Everyone knows John the Apostolic went astray after he made friends with Phillip the Presbyterian tbh
Cooper Wright
have to give you a (you) for that
Joseph Allen
There was a lot more variation in the liturgical practices of Europe. Instead of there being just about only one Latin Rite, there were several, like the Celtic rites, Gallican rites, and several others now defunct or lost. The West probably looked just as varied as the East does today.
Nicholas Wilson
...
Robert Morgan
Something like this I'd imagine.
Connor Bennett
Nah. It would've been more like this for the Latins.
Michael Fisher
Not quite true. It's just that we in the West know more about our variation of liturgical practices than we do about the variation of them in the East.
And, as mentioned above, the West took steps to standardize their practices before the East did.
The current somewhat monolithic appearance of the East is primarily due to the constriction under Ottoman mudslime rule.
For example, the East historically had:
Ayden Thompson
we’ve actually had all of those services in our parish and more. pretty awesome tbh
David Lopez
That IS awesome and a blessing.
We've been blessed to see Liturgy of St Basil once, and have experienced the Liturgy of the Presanctified Gifts over Lent many times, and have seen the Bishop serving a few times, which is pretty rare for the US.
Today we attend a Western Rite that regularly serves the Liturgy of St. Tikhon of Moscow. It derives from the Anglican 1892 and 1928 services in the Book of Common Prayer, restored to full Orthodoxy in the 70s. It's based on the Sarum Use of the Roman Rite, a mix of Gallican, Roman, Celtic, and British customs. Standardized in the 13th century (1200s), it was the source for the first Book of Common Prayer in 1549 and was used by Recusant Catholics. Ultimately it derives from the ancient use of the Cathedral of Salisbury prior to the Great Schism.
Adrian Bailey
very cool user, I’ll have to research more about it
Lincoln Martin
Eh, not really.
That's just ecumenical patriarchate influencing everyone loyal to them, and it happened way before islam ruled(the imperial chalcedonians took up the byz rite, while the old-school orientals kept the…well, the rites you can see today in their churches).
Add to that Nikon trying to align themselves(forcefully) with the greeks, intentional and unintentional pruning and standardization, and that's why everyone looks the same in the east, as in the west.
As a sidenote, i'm super sure they also had some cross-influence.
There's a plausible theory that the reason transilvanian orthodoxy looks different than wallachian and moldovan orthodoxy is due to it being built on top of a hispano-galic rite.
And even today, finnish lutherans and romanian roman-catholics sing "Christ has risen" like there's no tomorrow at Easter.