What do you think about Jeff Cooper's scout rifle concept?
The concept calls for a bolt-action carbines chambered for .308 Winchester (or 7.62×51mm), that is less than 1 meter (40 inches) in length, and less than 3 kilograms (6.6 pounds) in weight, with iron and optical sights and fitted with practical slings (such as Ching slings) for shooting and carrying, and capable of hitting man-sized targets out to 450 meters without scopes.
It also calls for a forward-mounted low-power long eye relief scopes or sights that afford easy access to the top of the rifle action for rapid reloading. This seems irrelevant nowadays IMO as most (if not all) modern weapons use magazines and not stripper clips.
Overall, it seems like a solid idea for something on a frontier. Or for a legal jurisdiction where you cant get anything better.
The scout rifle is designed as a "to hell and back rifle". It's a rifle that can kill anything living up to a thousand pounds, do it very well to 300m, have absurdly quick acquisition due to the long eye relief scope and be mounted with irons as a backup (in his words, "scopes always break, no matter what brand"). The fact that it's a bolt action means there's less moving parts to go wrong, no matter how near unkillable most automatic rifles are nowdays. It's quite possible the cold war had an impact on the severe Cooper, needing a rifle that will never in the history of ever fail in any way. Were you to have only one rifle ever, you could do a lot worse.
Jaxon Thomas
I've been thinking about finding a sporterized ishapore 2a1 or one of those spanish mausers in 308 for this. Its a good concept for fast game hunting or places with shit-tier gun laws.
Any one know of any good long eye relief scopes that don't cost an arm and a leg?
Do you have a set of 7.62 headspace gauges? Bubba'd milsurps are typically fucked to hell and back beyond what you see, too, so if you're trying to take a poorfag route you're looking at the tip of the iceberg thinking there's nothing below the surface.
Josiah Robinson
I want somebody to produce old style battle rifles like a carbine version of a m1914. Proper sights,m14 mag.
Perhaps simplify the sights like that Carcano. Chamber it in something like 6.5 to make it extremely point and shoot.
Perhaps use something like Steyr pistol trapazoid sights that use tritium vials.
Austin Edwards
You'll spend enough money "fixing" it to buy a brand new rifle twice over, and still be left with less than nothing. Buy a barreled action or even a complete rifle from Howa or Savage or who-gives-a-fuck and start from there.
Liam Gomez
I love the idea of a forward mounted scope and I would like to see more rifles with longer rifle barrels have it but I am concerned that the shorter barrel length will undermine effective range accuracy.
Besides that, it is a decent concept.
Easton Price
One effective hunting method is trapping. Mostly not done today because it's "teh ebuls", but it's legal in some places and I've done it myself. Second hunting method is where you bring your rifle or shotgun to a hunting blind and wait there for something to come across so you can shoot it. Most people use the second method, because it's basically couch hunting, and they don't need to worry about the weight of their rifles. Third method is to track animals, on foot or by horse, until you find them and then shoot them. Some people enjoy doing that, but it requires a lighter rifle - and that's what a scout rifle is. Some retard just tried to become famous by coining the term.
There's many other methods, like with dogs etc.
William Long
a stupid waste of time. The whole idea of a "do it all gun" or round is dumb because there's too much variance in what you might have to shoot. What are you going to do with that "do it all" scout rifle when you're camping and are starving and you can only find rabbits at the moment? The .308 is going to blow them to smithereens. What about when you're getting charged by a Grizzly? Your little micropenis 16" .308 barrel is woefully inadequate for that. What about if you need to make a 500 yard shot on an elk? That micropenis gun isn't going to do shit. Ditto for moose, it's a fucking military round for crying out loud, it was meant for killing humans. fuck Jeff Cooper, he was a glorified fudd moron, and fuck the pussified "gun community" that wants to downsize every goddamn thing. 26" barrel .35 whelen and a 12 gauge shotgun is what you should be using as a "scout."
Joseph Mitchell
If you really wanted to scout, you'd use at least 12.7cm cannons.
Sebastian Barnes
Could an AR15 in one of the fancy long-range cartridges meet the weight requirement while remaining semi-auto and the needed lethality?
Mason Lopez
Absoluetly civilian.
Make cute traps for them with your bayonet. Affix your bayonet and let it come. Affix your bayonet and charge it.
I think it's a very good tool for learning real marksmanship. If you can work with a bolt action, you can do it with anything. That being said, I still prefer my AR-15.
Matthew Miller
No it fucking doesnt, it goes clean through before it has a chance to turn so all it makes is a neat 7.62mm channel.
Grizzlies have been killed by .22lr, shot placement you nigger.
Why the fuck would I want to shoot an elk from half a kilometer away? Nigger do you even realize how difficult it would be to drag an elk carcass for half a kilometer out of the bush back to where you started from???
Easton Peterson
.308 bolt action is actually easely buyable in my country. What do you advice to buy? Please, not something too pricy.
Matthew Perez
And here I thought summer was over…
Austin Perry
Doesn't matter unless your shooting well beyond 700 yards which you're not.
Landon Ward
Where I hunt there are meadows and clearings that can extend thousands of yards, all flanked by the forest. Not every hunt is a bush hunt or a timberline hunt. And you can quarter large game, or use your ATV.
Lincoln Sanchez
This right here. I like Cooper, I like his idea, but a 24/47 Mauser like I've got is ideal, just add a scope. Probably a bit heavy, but its not a real general purpose do it all bolt action till you have a lug. I understand what he was going at and what it was for, but it should still have a lug.
I think I wrote about this on another thread, but rounds like the 375 H&H, 45-70 Gubmit, 30-06, 7.92x57 are all potential universal calibers with the right ammunition. With cast bullets and light loads they are perfect for varmits to small game, with medium loads for medium game, and with the right ammunition choices even big grizzly in emergency situations. The problem is you would have to have all these speciality rounds already loaded in some of the scenarios Cooper envisioned, and they would have different POI, especially at range.
And yes, I agree, except I think 375 H&H is better than 35 Whelen. Probably more likely to come across ammunition for my caliber too.
That's why guides or people in the woods carry 22lr for bear protection, because 22lr is magical and cannot possibly shoot anything but perfect. They don't carry big rifles or shotgun slugs or anything, because its all about shot placement.
I've really fallen for my CZ, I would suggest you look at one too.
Overall I think Cooper had the right idea. Manual actions are superior in the worst conditions, simpler, more relaible, its why they are still used in certain roles instead of auto loaders and always will. In many ways the perfect post apocalyptic gun. I can work a manual bolt action awfully fucking fast, so can many others, its certainly not useless in combat, self protection, especially with the right rounds. As for stripper clips, I agree, the M-14 has a real life advantage in this, its nice to be able to load rounds through the top when need be, it only enhances a 20 round magazine in the bottom. A weapon both light, reliable, able to hit at long range for harry or hunting, its a fun and solid idea.
Carson Price
The concept is very good, only needs a few things IMO. Bayonet lug as others have said in this thread, and a stripper clip guide. Those two are the big ones. The minor ones are also the weakest in terms of longevity. A way to put a light on that would be very nice, and maybe a micro red dot for when the sun goes down and you're in bear/cougar country. Or just night sights for the irons.
Cooper Thomas
lol excellent autism post 9/10
fuck you too
t. Never Shot Game in His Life
fuck you too way, way different calibers man .375 is for sure good enough on North American game. I only say .35 Whelen instead of .375 because the .35 was designed specifically for North America, whereas the .375 was for Africa. dude, all I can say is that you must have never shot small game with a 30-06. I've shot baby pigs and rabbits with 150 grain rounds, the lowest besides 125, and it literally exploded the animal into pieces from 50 yards away. I've shot baby pigs with a 30-06 at point blank range because I had just killed the sow and these little things were trying to stay with her for whatever reason, and they blew up like a bomb was inside them, smithereens. 30-06 is way too fucking much gun for varmits and small game, let alone literal Elephant and Moose guns like the .375 and .35 Whelen.
Elijah Wilson
...
Joshua Reyes
I've tried a lot to do that and honestly animals are dumb, if you're patient they come to you.
No that's why people carry 88mm carl gustavs for bear attacks. You fucking faggot a 7.62 NATO can easily kill a fucking bear you gay faggot nigger.
Eli Sanders
NO, just no First of all, I own an AR-10 in 7.62x51. Unless you put a 20" bull barrel on it and a serious muzzle brake, it kicks more than a 300 win mag. Lethal? Depends on what you're shooting. Shootable? If you're at the range, sure, in a combat situation, what kind of meaningful automatic fire you think you can get out of a gun that's kicking more than a 300 win mag? Are you a 400lb body builder? As for the 5.56, that's going to explode varmits and it won't penetrate enough on large game. People, listen to what the fuck you're saying and asking. AR-15 is meant to kill humans. We have guns and rounds that were designed for game from 100 years ago. None of this is new. Stop taking the marketing bait from the kikes and think you can take whatever round you want, stuff it in an AR platform and then shoot anything in the world. It doesn't work that way. You need the right tool for the right job. Shooting a Moose with 5.56 or a rabbit with a .375 H&H is probably good entertainment, but for serious work it's preposterous.
Isaac Scott
what kind of bear? and will it stop the bear before it kills you? a grizzly weights almost a ton. It often takes multiple shots form a .338 win mag to kill one, let alone "stop" the animal from charging you. 7.62 was intended to not only kill, but stop humans effectively. That it does. It was not designed form 2,000 lb flesh eating predators, that's what the .35 Whelen was designed for. wake the fuck up and quit being a faggot.
Landon Gutierrez
My greater point is reduced handloads which offer great opportunity to those with the means to do so. Not only is the 375 H&H an inherenlty accurate cartridge and very good at high power work on large game, it holds a well deserved notoriety for flexibility because of how well it performs with 235 grain jacketed, thinner jacket bullets at reduced velocities using different powders (I'm not sure if this is going to be a possibility with Hodgdon fucking the reloading world over by ending production of the DuPont IMR-SR series) where excellent accuracy and terminal performance were gained at hunting ranges with velocities of 1,500-1,800 fps, increasing the range of game the rifle could take greatly. To the cast bullet shooter like myself, the 375 H&H is a great choice for varmits, I can use some red dot and a 264 grain cast lead bullet at 1,150fps to achieve 1 MOA groups and take something like a rabbit intact for consumption.
45-70 Gubmit shooters have reported using the old magic 10.0 grains Unique and 292 grain and 330 grain hollow points to take ground squirrels using cheap home cast bullets. Using reduced loads rifles like the 30-06 and 8mm Mauser certainly can take small game without blowing them to pieces (I am well aware of which you speak, I've blown a few up myself), which is why I added why these universal calibers have a problem in the types of scenarios Cooper and others speak of, because in harsh long term conditions can the user of the Scout rifle reload ANY rounds, and then can he cast the bullets able to accomplish these tasks?
I understand the 35 Whelen and respect it, but the fact it is less common is a consideration, also in full power rounds where one wants it the 375 H&H can shoot flatter and hit harder if need be. In the theoretical cast bullet or blackpowder nigger rigg ammunition scenario, the larger cartridges gain another advantage.
As for Mr Leaf, others said it well, you need to kill the bear before it gets to you. Its never overkill in a self defense scenario, so you can't have anything that works too well. Only things that can work not well enough.
Aaron Thompson
Why are you asking me what kind of bear? How often do you even run into a bear? What type of weapon has 1000% chance of stopping a bear from popping out behind a bush and taking you out before you even lift the rifle? Silly questions.
If you want a guarantee that some retard can't be eaten by a grizzly simply cover him in explosives and shrapnel and a divers suit which (when punctured by fangs) triggers the explosion. He'll be dead, but he won't be eaten by a grizzly.
ammoland.com/2014/11/what-22-rifle-did-bella-twin-use-to-kill-a-world-record-grizzly-in-1953/ Again the issue isn't the caliber or even range. It's having enough situational awareness to prevent a bear from sneaking up on you, and being able to place the shot correctly as he's running towards you from a longer range. These are personal qualities of the individual and are harder to measure, I know you want this to be a simple caliber battle but it's not.
The .308 winchester is the most popular big game hunting round in the world. Most of the changes to make it a 7.62 NATO were to defeat vehicles and aircraft.
Benjamin Howard
How light is your AR-10? Standard 150gr should not be knocking your ass around like a 1k yard go fuck yourself rifle.
I've been on two grizzly hunts and I can state both bears had 1/10 shots in the vitals which killed it dead. The rest of them went wherever almost like someone bumpfiring at a target on a hillside, I have a great suspicion some of the people who hunt those fuckers tend to be people who don't take their rifles out and sight them in properly. I've shot one dead with a .308
I've smacked rabbits with .30-06 and they've left fairly neat holes in them, only animal I've had explode was a grouse. That fucker vaporized like something out of a movie.
Adam Nguyen
this board isnt for you
Jackson Davis
Friggin bears, man. I heard they will actually duck down behind cover and start quietly crawling away when they hear gunfire.
Since caliber means fuckall, wouldn't a 20" barrel ar with proper ammo do the job as well or better given 5.56's flatter trajectory? I've been looking into building an ar15 around a picrel lower, it looks pretty cozy to me even though its designed to get around cali laws.
My first rifle was a Cooey, I don't remember the model but it had a longer forestock than the one pictured. A close relative now has it, needs the extractor replaced which I hope he does just because she deserves to be used.
Nathaniel Cooper
Wouldn't 5.56 encounter issues if you were shooting through dense foliage? I know it's not flechette tier but I recall apocryphal complaints about the cartridge's performance in that regard. Also, you need to run a 20 inch barrel on the raider model for maximum carrrrrrnage
The point of a scout rifle is the combat size of it, which makes it more portable. A 20'' AR is not really compact.
Also 7.62/.308 is literally big game hunting caliber, the children in this thread are just being autistic and wrong.
On that topic nothing beats a 12ga plumbatta slug for bush hunting. I literally shot one through a sapling and sixty yards of dry built up brush and the path didn't deviate enough to miss a hipster.
Anthony Young
Nah fam, don't buy it.
Nathaniel Thomas
You're telling me the spring in an empty magazine knocks against the walls? Outrageous!
Ryan Murphy
The concept is not without merit. Though personally I think there are more potential available once people get out of the overly rigid dogmatic no it must strictly be an approved Scout rifle type mentality.
Parker Butler
On one hand, I really hope that's a transcription error of some kind. On the other hand, I really don't.
John Ross
OP here. I like the philosophy of a 'practical rifle' more than a scout rifle. I personally couldn't care less if a rifle meets Jeff Cooper's codified concept. As an Australian I could probably even get away with a rifle in 5.56/.223 or .22-250. Unless you're in croc country, or have feral pigs in your AO, anything more is likely going to be overkill down here.
I will definitely be looking into getting a practical rifle, and learning how to run and gun with it.
Thanks Zig Forums and all the anons who replied!
Adam Cooper
I hear they're overpopulated in Canada so it'd be no surprise if the canucks started establishing seasons for them
Jaxson Thompson
There are several control hunts per year, when the population gets out of control and they start leaving effete cigarette butts and discarded ecigarette cartridges everywhere.
Was mostly talking about the width of a hipster, which is narrower than the average woman.
Leo Watson
hah just get a PTR-91
Dominic Richardson
5.56 was made for killing coyotes and other mid-size varmints.
Which was several different cartridges, pick one 280 British cartridge, you can't cherry pick the best aspects of each.
Tyler Johnson
Oh hang on, you're the sperg who thinks the 14 MOA rifle that couldn't be mass produced was rejected as a result of some seppo conspiracy.
David Lopez
The original 139gr loading, I didn't specify any others, just the original. How was I cherry picking anything?
Yeah, according to a single rigged US test that favoured the M14 as a gift from God himself because "fuck dem stinkin limey gunz! we needz it made in murica!".
Literally every other test has disagreed with the "muh 14 MOA" claim. Do you really honestly believe that ANY smokeless rifled gun shoots worse MOA than blackpowder muskets and unrifled pipe guns? You don't see anything fishy about the US testing at all?
Anyway, the original forum post making up the claim linked this test as his supposed source for the EM-2 shooting 14 MOA.: www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/896858.pdf
The "14 MOA" claim comes from the "combat accuracy" portion of the testing and is the "extreme shot to normal C.I.", which is not MOA. The EM-2 got 14", the FAL got 17" and the M14 got 9". The actual GROUP SIZES for semi-automatic fire at 100 yards from the bench for the three rifles is as follows: EM-2: 1.6" FAL: 3.2" M14: 1.4"
The retard forumlet obviously opened up the test document, looked for the biggest number he could find and then claimed that it was the EM-2's MOA at 100 yards. Just clicking the link he provided proves him wrong instantly. The EM-2 came 1st in full-automatic fire accuracy too, with an 11" group at 100 yards from the bench compared to 12" for the FAL and 20" for the M14, obviously because of the .308's recoil.
Just read the summary for fuck's sake, it even praises the EM-2's accuracy in the very first page. This "muh 14 MOA" meme needs to die along with the forumlet who created it.
And I'm glad we are out here, rather than in England where the political class decided (among other things) that importing "refugees" would be a good idea, to allow sharia law to work alongside British law, and which all but surrendering the UKs sovereignty to the EU in return for trade was a great idea.
And don't get me started on the restrict motor vehicles idea that some idiot came up with as the solution to the peaceful trucks of the Religion of Cuck. Yeah, that will work. Just like banning guns and restricting knives curbed crime!
I think this is the point where you invoke the Emu war, monocle wearing tea drinking top hat man. Pip pip!
Oliver Nguyen
And I'm glad we are out here, rather than in England where the political class decided (among other things)…
That importing "refugees" would be a good idea That allowing sharia law to work alongside British law was a good idea. That surrendering the UKs sovereignty to the EU in return for trade was a great idea. That the peaceful trucks of the Region of Cuck can be stopped by restricting motor vehicles. That crime can be stopped by banning/restricting guns/knifes.
I could go on, but that should suffice. Also, I think this is the point where you invoke the Emu war.
Enjoy trying to get your country back, monocle wearing tea drinking top hat man. Pip pip!
Josiah Wilson
Wow, you surely showed us how the EM-2 is an inherently inaccurate rifle!
Wow, gee, really got me there, I guess the EM-2 really does shoot 14 moa Reminder that even rape whistles are illegal in Oz because "it might hurt the rapist's ears"
Couldn't you just use a bullpup design to get a long barrel without adding too much overall length? This would also allow you to put a scope in front of the action without needing crazy long eye relief, as the action is that much closer to you.
Hudson Cook
Great idea for very specific application
Alexander Flores
Is this kind of intellectual retardation typical here?
A particular britfag or two have been rabid faggots recently, yeah.
Anthony Lopez
Are you unironically from reddit? What the actual fuck, I've never seen such a cringe-inducing post format in my entire life.
>>/reddit/
The original argument was about .280 and the ME-2 before the auschink got BTFO and you derailed by screeching "CUCKED! MUH SHARIA! WHITER THAN U ACHMED! REEEEEEEEEEE!" you sub-60 IQ abbo. I know you may be used to reddit's format, but if you just scroll up, it shows the posts that he was replying to and you can follow the conversation from there.
Jonathan Murphy
Make me fuck off cunt.
Anthony Hernandez
Would be better if reliable semi-auto doesn't exist.
I'm halfway through the OP of that thread and I'm already developing a mild headache from the sheer disgust I feel for that snarky style. It's like fucking reddit with the pretentiousness, but somehow even worse.
Jacob Roberts
Read the test data the forumlet provides as his source. He's literally making shit up. The EM-2 shoots 1.6 MOA.
Asher Kelly
I've managed to read a bit more of that shite, and it seems to me that his only argument for the EM-2 being hard-to-produce is that Ian "A striker-fired upside-down M1911 in 9mm Parabellum is the peak form of innovation" McCollum says so in that one video. Yet I don't see how this would be impossible to produce. Sure, it would require lots of small steps, but it's mostly just pieces of bent sheet metal and 3 pipes welded together. The rest are just small machined bits that require some fiddling. Certainly not an AK, but doesn't seem to be harder to mass produce than a FAL. Especially if they started to cast all the more complex parts that bear no pressure.
Wasn't the trigger really complicated? Or was that only the EM-1
Xavier Martinez
Now, they try to address this problem in that forum thread too, but all they could say is that the prototypes were milled, and there were no hints of them wanting to use stamped components. I have a hard time to believe that everybody in the homeland of the STEN and the Sterling would have ignored stamping, especially because this desing cries for using standard gauge piping. And at least a few components are clearly stamped even on the prototypes.
Take a look at it at 19:40, it doesn't seem to be complicated to me.
Christopher Martinez
Yeah, looks like I was thinking of the EM-1, which has a bretty gud trigger (one of the few non-shit bullpup triggers out there), although it's on the complex side. Can't find a proper cross-section of the EM-2 unforunately.
This is how we get TFB reporting that the EM-2 as being 14 moa in their articles now. Thanks retards.
What I love the most about his post is that he claims that American tank designs are superior to British ones as well. Not only did we invent the tank, but we also invented MBTs and and the modern concept of armoured warfare. We invented the most popular and successful tank design in history as well as chobham/dorchester armour that the yanks use. But I guess all of that doesn't count because "muh turbine engine". If someone unironically says "American tanks are the best in the world" then don't believe anything else that ever comes out of their mouths. I don't know why anyone believed him after reading past one line of that post.
Nah lad, Ian McCollum is the top-tier source for everything firearm related. t. Ian "12 year old British cadets are part of the actual 'royal army' fighting force, and that's why they needed to invent semi-auto SA80s." McCollum
Forgot to mention. The US Army is having to contract BAE of all companies to fix the M1 Abrams after their own armour improvement program ran out of funding without producing a single product, despite being the most heavily funded project the US Army has ever undertaken in history.
The US Army is relying on the makers of pic related to fix their tanks for them.
If I recall correctly, didn't Moss write his MA thesis on the EM2, handle several EM2s and fire one? Isn't he pretty much the world EM2 expert?
Anthony James
Woah, now. Next you'll be saying the Tiger and Panther tanks weren't very good. Careful with that logic.
Henry James
You also ruled the waves, had colonies and a white capital city. Nobody cares.
Adrian Thomas
That doesn't mean he knows anything about manufacturing guns with 1940s-1950s technology.
Caleb Clark
Here's an example of the expertise of the people over there: sturgeonshouse.ipbhost.com/topic/1443-bash-the-em-2-thread/?page=3 This is after writing a long-winded post about how the EM-2 receiver is way too long for mass production, and now most of his argument is gone. And again, I really woundl't be surprized is the two pipes at the back were indeed drawn pipes, and the welding marks are hidden by the wood on the back. If those two great experts both read what he wrote, and didn't tell him that he is completely and utterly wrong, then I must also doubt their knowledge.
Isaiah Watson
London is still whiter than the whole of the USA, nice try Jamal.
Julian Hughes
Native Brits are only a plurality in Londonistan now, friend. England as a whole may be better than burgerland but London is one of the few places that's worse than le 56% meme.
