What was he thinking

He was thinking that he needed to capture the oil fields to keep his mechanized units fueled and fighting. His generals were thinking that if they captured Moscow the Russians would have rolled over like the French.

Hitler was right to push for the oil, his generals were wrong to push for Moscow. The only thing they would have achieved in taking Moscow would be rail lines that would have been dynamited by retreating Russians. Communists will throw every man, woman, and child into a meat grinder to hold onto power.

How logistically plausible was this? The forces the Axis already had in north Africa were enough to overburden their thin supply lines, going deeper with more divisions would've made supply even harder.

Don't forget to remove Göring and Udet so autismobinations like aircraft related and the Schnellbomber maymay don't happen but keep Richard Vogt as a last resort in any case.
If the LW had focused all of its engineering efforts into
1. High altitude heavy strategic bombers
2. Jet-powered high altitude strategic bomber interceptors
3. Long-ranged single engine high altitude bomber escort aircraft capable of being converted to light ground attackers if necessary thanks to rugged airframes and engines
4. Zerstörer-type multirole planes for night fighting, recon and CAS
5. Transport aircraft, patrol floatplanes, etc.
would it have had any chance of crippling Britain hard enough for either a peace agreement, surrender or Operation Seelöwe?

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Japan was fighting in China during all of WW2. They wouldn't have been able to take out the Soviets and push through Siberia. On the other hand basically guaranteeing Stalin that they wouldn't attack was just as reatrded.

Wasn't it Hitler and WW1 generals stopping Guderian and Rommel from further advancing? Dunkirk would have never happened if these two could have advanced further.
The Wehrmacht would have heavily extended the frontline but this was nothing compared to the extended French frontline. The UK and France were unable to conduct encirclements and (considering they would manage to create them) destroy pockets.

Basically this. The IJN would have been almost worthless in an invasion as well.

but they did not go for the resources (focus on southern front) because of OKH's decision, Halder wanted to solve this just like he solved france and wanted to go for the mosow because he was a fucking autist
Hitler was well aware of the situation and wanted to grab southern resources and starve out soviet union while attaining much needed oil that axis forces were always short on. If they went for the southern front the russians would be not only starved of food but also much lower on fuel.
German staff just wanted to play around with tanks and win their little battles instead of focusing on the strategic level of the war, they basically decided to do it their own way and ignored the plans

this, they would need to change their thinking way earlier on and invest in their army instead of the navy

I wouldn't trust the books written by German generals after the war, they have a habit of blaming everything on Hitler even if it was their fault.

Looks like you guys know something which i don't. So technically not Hitler was the napoleon-autist faggot who went after Moscow as a symbol of superiority? So taking Stalingrad as a mockery on Stalin wasn't his plan? As a political show off? I seriously asking these because i read couple of books on this shit show and im not sure what was propaganda and what not.

That's actually makes sense, but i doubt it would work out for them. The german navy was abysmal and even if they got rid of the commie navy the brit fleet would be still in their asses.

Trying to scare a russian is like trying to drown a fish.

Why has no one checked these beautiful dubs yet?

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As if NatSoc germany didnt do the same

No they didn't

It is plausible if we assume that germans and italians cooperated better, like establishing a joint military chain of command like Allies did. Axis never made such thing and it was very evident trough the war.
This way they could have been much more effective fighting force and for example invade Malta in 1940/1941 effectively making the naval supply to Libya easier.
Also eventual failure of Afrika Corps was caused by lack of objective and germany losing the war in eastern front. It AC was sent to africa as a political force not a invasion force, it was meant to help Italians and dont let them drop out of the war not to capture suez. Rommel didnt need much more there, he just needed little bit more supplies and maybe a additional division or two and more airpower. And of course a green light to go to Suez and beyond instead of vague goals like it was irl.
With all that victory against Brits in 1940/1941 would be almost certain

In fact i think that winning plan would be like this
1939 - Poland
1940 - France and North Africa
1941 - Consolidation power over Europe (Yugoslavia, Greece, Romania) and military buildup (that includes sharing tech and equipment between Germany-Italy, something that didnt take place in real life)
1942 - Preparation of defenses against eventual USSR invasion

Its easy to say all this with hindsight and all that but i think Hitler problem (and whole german chain of command) was that they though locally and short term.
They should have though long term and more globaly/on larger scale

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What are you talking about?
German surface navy was the strongest in a Baltic and UK had absolutely no entry into the Baltic, it was suitable for its task and for the most of the war Baltic was firmly in the hands of Germans

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Yes they did, they even built suicide airplanes for kids to fly like rammjager or he-162s. Near the end of the war they routinely conscripted old people and women.

Both Germany and Russia were in a total-war economy, which meant old people (grannies and grandpas) did the farming and food production along with the little girls; the women did the manufacturing along with the little boys; and the men did the dying. It was the same in both countries, with minor exceptions.

In those stressful situations humans tend to stratify pretty regularly into classes, almost like an anthill. Vietnam and North Korean societies did something similar, as did the American South during the civil war.

A very romantic and insane idea. Also, not that you are wrong, but in the case of the USSR it was the Red Army that used women and children. Germans had to be autistic about this too, and although they did widen the age limit for the Heer to 16-60, they had to make a completely new organization for this. The Volksturm was supposed to be the local defence organization of the NSDAP, completely independent of all other armed forces. From a practical (and cruel) point-of-view it makes sense to give some guns to the grandpas and boys whose factories and fields are now on the other side of the front, because at least they will slow down the enemy instead of burdening your logistics as refugees. But according to propaganda they were supposed to fight in an apocalyptic last war that will decide everything for Germany.

I know that they were in the air defence units, and the SS had a woman's organization that helped with administrative duties (and ran some concentration camps), but were they conscripted into actual front line units?

They were in frontline units, shooting real bullets at T-34s. Unlike the old men, the German women actually slowed down the Russians for hours at a time.

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there is this thing, Oberkomando des Heeres commander at the time of operation barbarossa was Franz Halder, he was a sort of an anti-nazi conspirator and often challenged Hitler's decisions. He wasn't some sort of prussian professional general who cares not for politics, he took the matters a bit further.
Now, there's this other thing, after war. Franz Halder was one of the main war history advisors for US Army historical division in '50s, he even got a medal for that. He was the first guy to talk about the german side of things, and he became one of the most popular ones. He basically shaped the way many people view the war now, everyone goes with his thinking that shifts all the blame somewhere else. I mean, can we blame him? I would do the same.
Stalingrad had some political importance and taking it would surely be a blow to the russian morale, but bear in mind that many russian men conscripted into service were told by their commisars that they are x kilometers near german border. And they just believed it, once you grab men from the deeper russia you just grab slavasian liberators that shit in the field and the only technology they know is a hunting gun and a train. I doubt they would know some important russian city was captured.
So basically Hitler knew what was up and wanted strategic victory through suffocating Russia, but german staff decided that they know better.
Stalingrad was important because it was one of the largest cities still in russian hands on the southern front. It's important mainly because it's located right above volga river and is one of their last strongolds there (less important). The volga was an important transport route for USSR so cutting it off would be beneficial if they couldn't just cutoff caucasus in a straight line (I believe they could just gas bomb the stalingrad and cut it off from outside or something). The main point though is still: capturing Ukraine (some called it the soviet granary, rightly so, russians had to request help from the US to keep up their needs for food) and capturing caucasus along with it's oil fields, even if russians succeed in destroying most of the infrastracture, they will yet again need help from the outside (now with even more oil) while the germans try and restart the oil extraction there. (which is VERY important for Axis that basically had their own stock which was constantly dwindling and only some synthetic production capacity and small romanian fields that helped the issue, if they would succeed in securing refineries in Baku this would allow them to get the oil right on the frontline and not drag it through half of the greater reich)
If germany&friends would succeed in winning on southern front, while only going for killing as many russians using as few resources possible on the other fronts, this could actually go well for them. They would solidifiy their positions, even build proper defences while keeping up the fight just to keep the russians off balance. The russians would slowly suffocate while germans would construct more infrastracture on captured territory making it easier for them to continue operating.
But it's not as simple as it seems, german eisenbahntruppe (rail construction forces) always lacked protection, equipment and staff. "disbanded" russian troops that would hide in forests, partisans, bad weather, overall horrible conditions put a strain on them. They barely kept up with germans with their rush towards Rostov, it would be even worse if the germans pushed further towards Astrahan. They would have to convert more than 2200km of rail (2234kms from Lwow to Astrahan by road according to jewgle, but russian railroad didn't have a connection in straight line there) since russians had a different rail gauge.
This wasn't some lebensraum fight, it's surely nice to grab that sweet ukrainian soil, but the main point was to kill one large european power while feeding off it's resources (fucking oil wars since 1941).

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You meant that USSR defended itself and employed last resort strategies when it was nearing collapse in 1941 against the invading german army?

The judeobolsheviks didn't send their own people to fight in an apocalyptic battle with the idea that it's better to perish once and for all. They rationally came to the conclusion that drafting everyone is a must. Therefore they weren't insane and romantic.

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Insane: yes
Romantic: fuck no. What is romantic about sending children and old men (never women in combat roles contrary to what claims) to their death?

Romanticism isn't about holding the hands of a girl in a candle-lit room. It's about sending children to their death.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism

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Specifically designed so it wasn't a suicide plane
What the fuck are you talking about? A plane made out of cheap materials that still outperformed most allied aircraft in the skies at the time.
No, they conscripted teenagers
Kek, no
Don't try to assert opinions on things you don't have a clue about, leaf

I never said that and I accuse you of strawmaning.
I am saying that sending kids to their death is not an act of romanticism (the idea that the individual's feelings and emotions direct their actions and can lead to them doing amazing feats). It would be romantic if all these boys and old men had signed up out of free will, but that wasn't the case in most circumstances, despite what propaganda has you believe.

Entirely false. They primarily conscripted old people.

Now that I think about it you are correct. The average German teenager didn't have the time to listen to nazi propaganda, because he was busy rescuing jews from the rampaging Polish death squads.

Soviet forces were building up on the border. It was either invade now and still have a chance of winning or stay in the defense and loose 100%, making all of Europe communist.
Daily reminder that we died for Europe.

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Communists and ally apologists will always deny this

I am not disputing the fact that teens signed up, or that they were eager to do so. But there is a difference between conscripting anyone above the age of 16 and boys signing up out of their own free decision.

Take the only chance he had at winning before Stalin was finished building up his military to steamroll Germany?

Lots of people who are brainwashed by Jewish history forgery in here.

And where do you take the fuel from to run such an airfleet?

How is staying in the defense worse than being in the offense?
I mean even if USSR invaded its troops would have lower morale, best generals would still be in gulags and Europe would get a surge of anti Bolshevik volunteers even larger than historically
The narrative of
is retarded, face it. Hitler though that USSR is weak and ripe for conquest and german superiority delusion was all time high after defeating (presumably at that time) best army in the world (the french)
You mean 10.000 missing poles murdered by germans in danzing?

The absolute state of NEET'socs

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Because you're doomed to lose because of your lack of resources?

Your your brain once in your life. Also, you're retarded beyond down syndrome if you think Stalin didn't plan to attack once Germany was weakened enough by the allies. You also kind of forget the atrocities poles commited against Germans after ww1.

If he stuck to the plan and let his generals run the war it would have worked.

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But USSR supplied all the resources needed to Germany up until Barbarossa
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German–Soviet_Commercial_Agreement_(1940)
You mean plebiscites conducted on contested lands in with germans resorted to cheating?
Or maybe you confused it with atrocities conducted by germans against Polish people?

yet again confirmed that you are the niggers of europe

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but it said so in der sturmer so it must be true

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now i've seen it all

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Those yankees did deserve 9/11. I'm of the opinion that there were no planted explosives/thermite and God himself made the towers collapse to punish the Jew Yorkers

This post made me kek. The eternal burger strikes again.

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I will destroy that shitty idea once and for all.

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What did he mean by this?

From Romania and synth oil factories unless a somewhat stable supply route from north Africa/the ME can be established like suggested.
The idea behind the whole thing is to delay/hamper Harris' barbeque conquest long enough for the Me 262 to enter service in a Reich that isn't 95% destroyed.

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>>>/his/

The downward motion was due to gravity.
The relative lack of sideways motion was due to the lack of a net sideways force.
The plumes of dust, smoke, and debris blowing out of the windows during the collapse was due to the sudden increase in internal pressure caused by the top of the building coming down on the rest, compressing the air in each floor space, like a piston until the air blew out the windows.

This isn't difficult to understand, anyone who has been through a Physics 1 course in college, or Statics and Dynamics, would have a good grasp on these basic principals.

Draw a free body diagram and account for all the forces, and you will see there is no need for explosives or any other devices or measures to assist the collapse. When the top started falling every floor that collapsed added to the mass moving downward and made it that much harder for each successive floor to resist the falling portion.

He couldn’t have realistically won the war to begin with

He can.

The Allies made some very big strategical mistakes by letting him invading Poland and Eastern Europe.

But the thing is Hitler also made a strategical mistake i.e. attacking Russia, or at least not teaming up with Japan in double fucking Russia.

The whole USSR would have made the whole Europe if the Nazis didn't invade is truly a myth.

The fact the USSR got strong as it is because of Allies's aid in WW2.

If only Germany has stayed the hands and strengthened itself and fortified Eastern Europe.

He very nearly did and would have if he did not make so many mistakes.

How did he do it?

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I know, Hideki Tojo was an amazing man, wasn't he? Don't know what your video has to do with Dai Nippon Teikoku though.

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Now I finally understand why people don't take the gookposter seriously.

Around here there was supposed to be a civilian woman that volunteered to replace the injured loader of a I think it was Waffen-SS Tiger when the russians arrived. Made a few successful counterattacks to cover the retreating infantry and civilians before retreating too, woman survived and was dropped off at a village where she had relatives, no idea what happened to the tank crew later. I can ask my old man later for more details, he knows the full story

Rammjäger were volunteers

No. Hitler was opposed to wasting resources on capturing something that Russians would just destroy themselves.

No, no no, if the fucking generals had stuck to the plan it would have worked. Or atleast worked better. You see, there is a problem with germans. You might have some bloke that makes this pretty fucking neat plan. Nothing too complicated, with a sound general idea and a solid idea of general executions with some lower echelon flexibility. But the fucking subordinates of that smart bloke. There is always some fucktard in the organization that thinks that he knows better, that he doesn't have to stick to the fucking plan, and that fucking hell, he can just throw the whole plan out of the window while at it.

This shit is what caused Schlieffen plan to fail, some generallissimo mcmuffin and his friends stripped units away from the crucial northern flank, weakening it critically, ultimately costing Germany the whole war and a generation of people. And again with Barbarossa, some generallissimo mcmuffin the junior weakened the crucial southern flank and threw shit at Moscow and other tourist attractions.

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What the fuck?
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkssturm
You could have googled it.

They were desperation conscripts, sent out to be meat shields and cannon fodder to delay the Russians long enough for Germany to build a wunderwaffe. And it was precisely these women that the Russians raped, they didn't go after civilians but after the militiawomen blackmailed or forced by the SS to oppose regular soviet army units. For some reason the Germans only put the female units around berlin, which is Soviet area of conquest, not that the Americans behaved any better to the little German boys.

But they did lose 100% and all of Europe is currently communist. What exactly did attacking Russia accomplish except make the destruction of Germany that much faster?

Without Barbarossa, the allies wouldn't have received a respite from 3/4 of the German army going to the eastern front, and Stalin would not have the impetus or the reason to turn USSR into a total-war economy. T-34 would likely never have been invented because the commies would decide it's a "wasteful project" like the jet fighter borovkov-florov, and if NKVD tried conscripting women and children without the obvious threat of utter extinction the people would have overthrown stalin.

Stalin was massing fortificatons and BT2 tanks on the border, the army that would enter Germany would be similar to the army that entered Finland. Russians suck at offense, he would have entered german territory, got his ass kicked, and retreated never to be seen again. The allies alone couldn't have taken down or even seriously injured Germany.

Arguably, if barbarossa didn't solidify the opposition, Nazi Germany could have existed well into the 70s or 80s even if their spies didn't get them nukes.

u fookin wot m8?

Production in 1940 was 400 tanks.
Production in 1941 was 35,000 tanks.

Can you think of a reason why?

Gearing up for upcoming German invasion?

I'm specifically calling the idea of the Volkssturm romantic and insane. To repeat myself:
Most people were sane and rational enough not to go along with it, and so many Volkssturm units capitulated en masse. It doesn't make the idea less romantic. It's like saying that a painting can't be romantic if it doesn't depict a real event.

The abosulte state of amerimutts.

You musn't be very literate if you think that this amount of text is close to anything significant. Besides, your first sentence says that they were conscripted into "auxiliaries", without even defining what those are supposed to be. The second one says that they were trained, not that they were ordered to the first line.
As far as I know the actual frontline units were rather professional and didn't really care about civilians. It was the next wave that was supposed to mop up any remaining resistance that looted everything and raped every women. I've never encountered the claim before that they were only raping girls in uniforms. If anything, it sounds like you mistook some kind of a pornographic story for real accounts. Also, the Volkssturm was organized by the local bureaucracy of the nazi party, the Allgemeine SS had nothing to do with it (other than joining if they were conscripted). Members of the Volkssturm were supposed to be trained by the SA.

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Fuck off Jew.

I wonder what sort of effects a victory/peace agreement over Britain by early to mid-1942 resulting in an Axis-controlled Suez canal would have on the war in the Pacific.
Would the Kriegsmarine have been capable of shipping some quantity of Tank&aircraft engine blueprints over to the Nips via the Indian Ocean?
Would the nips have been willing to put DB 601Es in Ki-61s?

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Why exactly?

Sound like total horseshit m8.

If they were gearing up for a german invasion, it would have been way more in 1940.

You are aware that the only person with the power to do that was Hitler right? Some 'generallissimo mcmuffin the junior' can't decide on his own to move his junior command north from the south. Anyway, going for Moscow was the right move, if anything it was Hitlers move south that was wrong. Moscow was an important logistical and communications centre as well as the capital of the USSR, German troops were position to take it before the push south when they then had to be used to support that operation and then moved north again(even so they got a mere handful of Kilometres away from the Kremlin). Moving south only served to isolate large portions of the army.

In the same post as
I don't even know who your mental gymnastics are supposed to support, but they're certainly remarkable.

Read Hitler's War by David Irving, or search /pol for audio user's reading of it. Best WWII book ever written, and it was actually taught from in US Army was colleges until the smear brigade realized he doesn't cover the Holocaust.

Basically, Hitler had control only where he was looking, otherwise all these other interests took over. His goal was always to take the oilfields, while the generals wanted political victory (and some were just straight up traitors, as proven by the fallout from Valkyrie). Hitler got sick for about a week (bunker air) and precisely then the generals started shifting good troops to attack Moscow instead of the caucuses. After he was back in charge, it was a fait accompli, so he went ahead with it. Realizing his mistake, he never trusted his underlings again, and by the end of the war he was a nervous wreck running on nothing but willpower and strange injections because he tried to run the war alone.

The original goal was always to take Moscow, not the oil fields. The initial offences were heading towards that objective, he then changed it just on the verge of taking Moscow. He did not use the oilfields as justification either(well not the USSR ones), his reason for the southern move was to take Crimea in order to protect Rumania and her oil fileds from air attacks, The Caucusus was a secondary objective which is why he then resumed the move towards Moscow after Crimea.

Lies

What if he and Mussolini tried to capture Gibraltar prior to Barbarossa?
Would burgers have invaded Spain instead of Sicily in that event?

And what would had happen if Spain joined the axis? I know they were recovering from the Spanish Civil War, but I could imagine Spain to be a tough enemy to take for the allies, giving much needed troops and supply to Germany to defend the Atlantic coastline. So that much more advanced German divisions could had been diverted to the Soviet front.

If i'll ever be so unfortunate and have to visit Br*tian, i would locate Ch*rchills grave and piss on it
rate and subscribe

As far as strategic goals go Moscow was nearly irrelevant, only strategically relevant thing with Moscow was it being railroad hub. The most important strategic goals for Germany was securing OIL and FOOD. Capturing Moscow did nothing to secure those goals. FOOD was in Ukraine. OIL in Caucasus. Every man, horse and tank wasted on trying advance on Moscow was wasted. Not to mention time. Ukraine was quite conveniently on the way to Caucasus. Stalingrad had importance as it is river Volga, a major transport route, something far more important than any symbolic value of name. It was fine point tie down Soviet troops. Basically what Germans were supposed to do with Moscow was bombing rail yards, bridges and shit, also maybe some specific industrial targets and HQ's. But generally just harass Soviets there.

German navy might be weak when compared to US Navy or Royal Navy, but Soviets were bottled up in Leningrad on from day one after Barbarossa began. Only thing Soviet Navy could do during the war was operating with handful of submarines from Leningrad. Baltic was important as shipping route for Germans, they needed Swedish iron ore.

How Barbarossa should have gone:
1. Secure Baltic States, siege Leningrad. Defend those gains with some mobile reserves.
2. Everything else towards Ukraine and Caucasus.

They got to almost to the goals in Caucasus, had they ignored Moscow in late 1941, they would have made further into east in south by winter 41-42, there is a chance that they would have made it on summer 42. Caucasus was also a major shipping route for Lend-Lease shipments from US.

It was the generals that fucked up with Barbarossa. They simply didn't understand how economy works, tactical victories were more important to them than strategic goals.

There isn't much FOOD and OIL in Moscow. The two things German war economy needed keep running desperately. Kremlin was a fucking tourist attraction.

/int/ out of ten.
It was autism and it was on the KC Zig Forums. Please leave.

Never
It posted on here before i posted on gaysea

Brits were too pussy to step in Baltic.

Anyway German Navy and AF pushed commie shit hard and locked them in Leningrad for good.

They would be a second, even more useless Italy. Nothing but a drain on German resources.

They would've been an Italy tier ally and would've collapsed/gotten overrun almost instantly

I miss KC /int/ posting. It was the friendliest international banter you could have anywhere on the internet.
Kohlchan just isn't the same.

You aren't only one missing defunct chans, Finnish chans have gone to utter shit since fall of kuvalauta. When it comes Krautchan, I was on its /int/ occasionally for years. Some of early Spudo raids were Ebin! =DD. Later ones had very little creativity, but jonnes gotta do what jonnes do.

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That's not a small thing. Moscow wasn't a railway hub, nor were its resource reserves empty, it was practically the beating heart of the entire railway system in European Russia and the cornerstone of all major logistical movement from further East. The capture or denial by damage of this nexus has horrendous knock-on effects to the Soviet war effort. It means no supplies moving where they need to be at further railyards and then on to truck depots. It means the cutting of a central place to distribute lend-lease coming from ports in the north, south and east alike. It means the uncontrollable unraveling of exceedingly important aspects of the teetering war effort.

Also of import are the electric generators and substations in the vicinity of Moscow & Gorky, of which it can be said, 'destroying just two thirds of the turbines would have knocked out about 75 percent of the power used by the Soviet defence industry, and only two smaller energy centers behind the Urals and in the Soviet Far East would have been left intact.' The death rattle of Soviet industry would swiftly grind out, and a substantial portion of lend-lease would from America would be turbine components to try to reconstruct the plants. But the Germans only realized to target these plants with Operation Eisenhammer in 1943, far later than necessary with far scanter resources available than were needed, and the plan would never go through for numerous stumbling blocks.

Moscow is important. Moscow needs to be taken, not as a symbol, but as a vital element of the total war for both sides. It is not a pure political target. But you have to choose; either go for broke with the earliest rush to Moscow possible, which is for the most part unfeasible without a substantially improved German logistical train and weapons to improve and secure her pace of advance, to 'kick in the door and let the whole rotten structure collapse,' or you bite and hold at vital economic flanks, trip the colossus and beat him to death, seizing Moscow in the second campaign season.

Without some very substantial changes over OTL, you cannot follow and carry out Hitler's triple-target plan in one year or even come close; it is indeed best to bite and hold onto two at most and strike Moscow's vital points with gun and bomb. Instead, the generals continued to argue for Moscow, Hitler ordered ahead/relented to Operation Typhoon in the fall, and taken by fury at its failure & the unauthorized withdrawal of the untenable front lines, reactively demanded their defense- which he may not have done had he been asked to authorize the withdrawal in the first place- after repeatedly having been gone around by his increasingly mistrusted generals. The rest is history.