Sola Fide debate

We are not the ones who do the building but it is the spirit. If you interpret it otherwise then you are making scripture contradict scripture.

Really bringeth one to ponder…

I've have to deal with James 2 so many times that I'm tempted to just past my previous responses here. And I probably will. Hold up:

Ok, great start. First of all you have to understand what faith alone means. There is a difference between "Sola" fide and "solo" fide. The difference is outstanding. First of all solo fide leads to antinomianism while Sola fide leads to good works. What do I mean? The meaning behind sola fide is that our faith the the ultimate authority in the sense that our faith, if it is true, leads us to do good works. This is what james means "faith without works is dead." He paul is talking about a "faith" that does not produce good fruits. Again the subject here is Faith and offspinf of this. He is telling us of two different types of faiths.

This point is better convayed by verse 14 where is says "Can that faith save him?" "That faith." The greek word used here is "ὁ πίστις" (Ho pistis). Tthe ho here is in the the definite article, which is used to refer to a particular member of a group or class. Here james is talking about a specific faith here not just anything.

And so a faith without works is not true saving faith whereas a faith with works is true. That is why paul can say what he does in philippians 1:6

Also, when I was about to finish writing this you told me to ignore your first paragraph and I already wrote too much so I carried on.

Here it is

it separates faith from works, when in fact they are both one. to have faith is to be a certain way in the world, that way of being includes keeping commandments and doing good works and having beliefs and praying and hoping, etc.

Where are you coming from on this, if I may ask? Calvinism?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Belief is not a work, but it's necessary for salvation.

I'm a reformed Baptist which are basically Scottish Calvinists.

Who said belief was a work? Faith is a unmerrited gift from God.

Romans 9:15

They are told to believe. You have to admit there's a synergist element there.

But Christ says we are to seek, we are to knock, and when we seek we find, and when we knock he opens the door.
Without free-will, without some voluntary power on our end to connect with God, then there is no test and not moral responsibility. Ezra 1:6 and 7:13 imply man has freewill to make offerings to God. The NT calls us to repent, to hope and believe, if we had no freewill such suggestions would be comical.
It's true that God has a part in stirring faith in us, but we also have a duty to respond or reject

Romans 4:5 King James Version (KJV)

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Titus 3:5 King James Version (KJV)

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

No, not once you understand tota scriptura and the difference between prescriptive and descriptive verses in the bible.

We can't do righteous works, but we can strive to do so. We are not saved because of our righteousness, which we lack, but because of our salvific faith, which effects works in us to that end.

If it all depends on God, then its impossible for man to do so alone. God would not ask man to do the impossible, to work a miracle in himself, your reading of the bible doesn't make sense.
When John the Baptist went around telling people to repent and make way the path of the Lord he did so because people have freewill and the ability to choose to repent or to to sully the path.
The strict calvinist reading would be like John the Baptist going around telling people to turn water into wine or walk on water. The very fact that the bible asks us to seek, to repent to believe to hope and to love God implies we have a choice in the matter and a power to make such decisions already….

Thought so, I grew up Free Presbyterian/Reformed Baptist so I know where you're coming from. Now I'm just a run of the mill Baptist.
We're saved by grace through faith in Christ. That much is abundantly clear. but take another look at Ephesians 2 which you've posted a few times already.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
God ordained that we should walk in good works. It's worded so strongly, it says we're created in Jesus UNTO good works.
No, they're not necessary for salvation. A good deed done with a gun to your head has less merit than an alm done in secret, after all. But they're damn important to us as Christians. It's why we were made Christians.

What got me off the Calvinism kick was seeing how lazy I (chiefly) and my brethren were in doing those good works, and in bringing forth fruit after our kind.

First off, free will is a foreign concept in the bible. Perhaps you can prove otherwise but as of now I'm currently reading the entire bible starting from genesis making my way up to revelations and don't see this.

But you're right. We are to seek we are to knock and Chris t will never deny us. But what does the scriptures say?:

Psalm 53:2-3

It's not that God does not love us but that we do not love God. And so God takes it upon him self to circumcise our hearts:

Deuteronomy 30:6

And then put heart of stone to a heart of flesh:

Ezekiel 36:26

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.

8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?

10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?

12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.

13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

20 And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.

21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Specific works do not justify apart from faith, but 1 Corinthians 13 is crystal clear that even the faithful are nothing without charity, without the love that is the fulfillment of the law. Paul's emphasis on faith apart from works needs to be read in this context. That being said, as many others have pointed out, James 2, although a divisive chapter, emphasizes that apostolic and protestant views of justification differ only in theory, not in practice.

"Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now even more in my absence, continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God who works in you to will and to act on behalf of His good pleasure."
Fear and trembling being God and his judgements, lest we sin. And certainly a lack of charity is a sin worthy of damnation, although if one is a true christian one either has to be lazy or obstinately refuse to allow the Holy Spirit to cultivate charity in you.

It's not so much my reading of scripture is wrong but that you have the wrong presuppositions. God prescribes us things to do while at the same time describing what a true believer will be like. God has a purpose in all of this. John does not know who the elect are. He is simply following what God is commanding him and that's preach the gospel. And God does the rest of the work.

John 6:44

I think its assumed simply by intuition and experience that we have freewill, hence prophets ask humans to choose wisely and seek God. There is no point to request things of beings that are predetermined automata with no freewill.

Ezra 1:4, 1:86, 7:13 use the language of freewill: "And let each survivor, in whatever place he sojourns, be assisted by the men of his place with silver and gold, with goods and with beasts, besides freewill offerings for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.”
…." when they came to the house of the Lord that is in Jerusalem, made freewill offerings for the house of God"

Why would God ask Cain and Abel for offerings if they had no choice in the matter, why would he prefer Abel's over Cains if ultimately he was the decider?

Are you assuming I'm some sort of anti-nomian? I do believe in the importance of good works. When we were saved by faith or wasn't so we should be idle but that we are to be used as instruments of God to carry out his will. I believe we are saved by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone. And like you rightly said;
But they are evidence of a lively faith.

Funny you say that. I had a couple realizations recently. I could perhaps help you with this and explain why this truth should in fact make you more zealous for good deeds.

???

That there be the free will of the fall, unless God willed that we eat of the tree of knowedge of good and evil and surely die.

"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked," declares the Lord GOD, "rather than that he should turn from his ways and live? -Ezekiel 18:23
"The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. -2 Peter 3:9

Im not an antinomian. A true believer will have his fruits sprout out and be shown throw love and charity. John Calvin even said, we are justified by faith alone but not by a faith that is alone.

I disagree. It's not an argument against is but for us.

I deliberately asked you for the verse because I wanted to quote:
Even our good works are not our own but the spiri working within us.

Genesis 3 is an obvious demonstration of the principle of some type of freewill possessed by human actors.

Also, if actors have no independent action, then can they really be said to be independent actors? If they cannot, then their identity, and therefore their responsibility and moral weight, is dissolved. Even punishment would be meaningless.

Calvinism is an incomplete system, one revolving around suicide of identity rather than union with the divine.

Yes but it's still a "coming" it's not a dragging. God calls us and we respond and come or struggle against him.
There's no love in being dragged, that's not real submission and faith. Real belief and love need some freewill, the voluntary bowing of the knee out of love and awe, not God pressing you down like a strongman.

Why would the prophets and the bible ask us to repent and have faith if it was literally impossible for us to influence these things at all? Why did God ask for offerings if people couldn't actually will any freely?

“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you."

Strict predestination doesn't make sense and it undermines the whole message of Christ, the problem of the fall and man's responsibility to God.

Do you know what free will offerings are? If you just paid attention to the context then you would know. Free will offerings are ju when you offer more than was needed! Thus it's a free will offering that wasn't demanded of you.

Because God had a purpose in that. It had to happen and so by his sovereign decree he did so

Judgemental predestination seems to be rooted in a misapplication of determinist thought.

When I was an atheist/agnostic I started reading Calvinist theories. I came to the conclusion that even if there was a God then he made me an atheist and was preventing me from having faith and being saved, so there was nothing I could do about it. When theists would argue with me I would just say "what if I'm predetermined to be atheist…what do you expect?"
It was just a weird way to think about things.

You are ignoring his decree. God is sovereign over all things and nothing happens unless God wills it to happen. That includes the fall of man. But on the other hand we see that God can decree things which are contrary to his will but despite this we still know all things work out to the council of his will:

Ephesians 1:11

I'm not really smart enough to understand but just do both anyway

I don't believe in free will so I would say that humans have no independent actions but this does not free them from responsibility of their sins.

This is correct.
The way my late reformed pastor explained it was that a mother could wage war for 16 years to get her son to clean his room and comb his hair, and then in the blink of an eye he'd do both and more for that cute girl with the blue eyes down the road. So doth God's grace set us on the correct path.

Go for it, but I mean I lived the life of a sloth for years. Do you do soul-winning?
biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=labour&begin=47&end=73

it's an inheritance, we can accept or decline, not an injunction forced on us.
That isn't heaven or salvation.
A sinner who loves his sin and gets forced against his will to "have faith" and get "saved" will actually experience sort of hell.

responsibility requires authentic choosing and doing. The ability to pick A over B.
Being made in the image of God comes with certain powers, the power to choose is among them.

It is a dragging. God literally had to wrestle with us to bring us to him. If it was simply a choice then no one would come since no one loves God.

I agree but he does not draw all people, only his elect.

You misunderstand. No one truly out of their own will loves God. We are all fallen and can't get back up. Because of this God by his gracious power takes it upon himself to bring is to him. Kind of like how a mother will give their child medicine that they don't know they like.

There is no responsibility without identity: even in the event you must bear responsibility, i.e. punishment, it holds no weight.

Explain

Are you saying you have infallible knowledge of the future? Are you saying because God has a hidden decree you can do as you will and deny Christ and in the end just say "you did it?" He honest with yourself. You have been commanded to do something so do it.

I like you

Without will, identity, independent initiative, there is no real existence of the independent conscience. Even if the similitude of conscience were made to suffer, there would be no real weight to any of it.

Well, my motivation is just wanting to get closer to God. Back in my youth I could sin without batting and eye and did it joyfully. I found peace and happiness in my sloth and because of this had a false sense of happiness. But after becoming a Christian I didn't find those things enjoyable anymore. It almost sickened me and the feeling of reverting back to my reprobate ways made me feel guilty. I'll continue later in depth.

Be serious. of course not.

Do you have scripture to support that?

You misunderstand. The believer, once he has been reborn by Christ, will seek God and find joy in him.

I disagree because scripture says otherwise. You can use all the convincing and worldly logic you want but my reason is under scripture. And if my reason isn't in line with that which is found in scripture then I know which one to drop.

See what I wrote here>>616561

Then prove to me biblically that the grass is responsible when I throw it to the wind.

Just had a realization about growing in grace and living a holy life.

So, for the past couple months I've been trying to live a more Godly life and try to glorify God in all aspects of my life. I had so many ups and downs for the past few months that although at times it left me feeling defeated it ended up also enlightening me and have me new ways i could live a holy life.

The first thing I realised was that my views about living a holy life were quite skewered. My idea of a holy life was waiting futile the spirit came and repossessed you and made you feel like doing good works or praying and then you'll do it. And so if you were feeling down or not in the mood you wouldn't have too. This was my first mistake. We are not to wait for when we're in the mood or for when we have a "feeling" of the holy spirit. Was Christ in the mood to be crucified? Was Moses in the mood to talk to pharaoh when he had just woken up in the morning exodus 8:20 clearly, the true sign of the spirit is to do the work the Lord has commanded you even during times of hardship because when we do thing when they're hard they value of that act becomes much more appreciative. This is why we like rags to riches stories as opposed to the kid who's dad was the head of some law firm and the only reason why he even got to where he is was because of his dad.
The second was keeping a float. You see, after we have sinned greatly we tend to try and make amends. We pray and ask God for forgiveness so we can just move on to only later on fall back. The reason for this is because we have taken rest once the hard times have past and stopped trying to stay afloat. An analogy of this would be a swimmer who is drowning and is trying to get back up to the surface. He kicks and grabs whatever he can and if he finally does make it up to the surface that is when he relaxes he begins to sink again. So we as Christians are not to relax once we think we have become cool with God but now we are to stay afloat and live a Godly life.

And lastly is being a part of a community. This is by far the most crucial. You do not grown by being by yourself or being a hermit but rather by growing in a community and being a part of a group. This is why it is important to go to church because in there is the key to eternal life.

When you throw it? You are not a sovereign God who decrees things. God is the porter of all of creation and you are his clay. If he decree that you sin then it is your fault.

And I dare you to asked for scripture

There is no community among prots. Or perhaps that's my own eternal isolation. (sorry for edge)

Oh there is! There absolutely is! And our community isn't limited to a physical church either.

Then prove to me with Scripture that if I, sitting her, am accused by God of a murder I did not commit, that I am totally responsible.

While I will not assume knowledge above myself, I don't think God operates like this.

If you didn't do it then you are not punished! God doesn't arbitrarily punish you for things you didn't do.

What's the difference between being falsely accused and being a mere clay pot hurled to the ground because it did not hold water- because water was never poured into it?

Isn't that the same objection raised in romans 9:19?

The answer comes in the next verses.

Which is why, again, I say that in practice the two are in tandem, along with hope, the three virtues that the Council of Trent states are necessary for salvation. The real problem with sola fide is that is that it was used as a weapon to fracture the unity of Christians because people claimed that the confession (which is absolutely necessary for salvation) and indulgences (which when sold are abominable, but which are a joyous relief to those in purgatory otherwise) to the shedding of much blood and the loss of many souls.>>616556

You yourself state that a faith without works cannot save but that a faith with works can.

See this here is the crux of the biscuit. Free will vs. determinism is possible argument in theory, but in practice when the solution to this specific user's problem is "just choose," then the whole artifice falls apart. Absolute sovereignty does not mean that God cannot give us free will, in fact it means exactly the opposite. One cannot recieve a gift but from God, but one has to come to God to recieve the gift themselves.
"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither COMETH to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." John 3:19-21

That's talking about determinsim, rather than a lack of freewill. Rather, it is parallel with the poem of Job. A pot with cracks will leak water even when water is poured into it.

The council of Trent clearly denied salvation by faith alone! what a lot of Catholics you and I see you doing it right now is obfuscate the differences and pass them off as mere detail! But in fact these differences have huge implications. Whereas the Catholics and eastern orthodox "claim"to believe we are saved by faith alone they in fact mean we must do the sacraments and can increase our justification and the way they achieve justification is by holding on. This is synergism and I hold that the good works we do are a by product of our true faith and do not save us but show that we have true faith.

I never understood this argument. The bible clearly states that there is no free will and in this context the sovereignty even encompasses our agency.

There's a lot of people who want to continue in their sin, and therefore reject the importance of works, even when it is stressed that they are not necessary for salvation. Ironically, this puts many anti-works fundamentalist baptists-types in league with active homosexuals who profess a belief in Jesus Christ.

Determinism is the lack of free will. Here God is clearly talking about God's part in salvation and that it is by no means on the part of man but those who God has predestined since eternity. Also, this is from jeremiah 18 and your alleged parallel from job doesn't make any sense.

And are you going to blame the scriptures for that or the sinful fallen hearts of men? A lot of these issue rise up from neglecting parts of scripture as opposed to them simply rejecting works.

Determinism isn't the lack of freewill. Rather, it is the determinability of the historical process. That is independent of freewill.

That doesn't make any sense since Romans 9:20-22 is talking about individuals salvation and how he is the determiner of it. This isn't about historical events but God's active part in bringin people to him.

Nope we condemned that as anathema, as per 1 Corinthians 13
Who ever said that justification is in the realm of quantity? It's a quality imparted by the Holy Spirit, merited by the passion. And unless you are an antinomian then I'm sure you would agree that that justification can be lost through sin and need to be regained, which is why Christ instituted the sacrament of confession.

Not according to John 3 19-21, unless God guides sinners into hell that is.

That's not what the historical process is. God being the ultimate determiner does not violate freewill.

Galatians 2:5

Westminster Confession of Faith chapter 16 "Of Good Works" article 6

Typo. I was I was meant to just write faith!

Lol, you don't need to be an antinomian to believe that we have external security.a true believer can fall at times and even backside but God will always guide him in the end! They sacraments prove that you believer you are saved by works.

I believe that. But how are they brought to the light? Read all of John to understand:

John 6:44

Then what would violate free will?

?

??

The denial of freewill would violate it. Freewill is a quality necessarily possessed by responsible actors.

Also, I don't understand the apparent conflict between determinism and freewill. They're completely compatible.

*I'm guessing you limit God in your understanding.*

'Watch yourselves, so that you may not lose what we have worked for, but may win a full reward. Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son."
If the disciples of St. John needed to watch out for their salvation then I'm pretty sure that eternal security is unbiblical. And they sacraments were instituted by Christ so don't ye go slandering em (not holding a grudge, but still).

That isn't a self evident proof against free will, and the emphasis on choice in John 3:19-21 shows that God's will and man's will work in tandem.
"It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him COMES to Me—

Before anyone freaks out that's called occasionalism, although afaik no denominations actually profess it. At least that's what I hope you're getting at.

Free will is never once mentioned in the bible. It's a foreign concept that only comes from a false presuppositions that you impose on the scriptures.

But how would you explain this:

Acts 4:27-28

How am I limiting God? I'm just reading the scriptures. You are so blind that you can't even see how Romans 9:20-22 refutes any idea that we have the free will to come to God.

I have three pieces of advice for you user, 1. lurk moar 2. read moar 3. be less autistic

An honest Roman Catholic has the assurance of a continuous stream of saints, marian apparitions, miracles, and general works of God to keep them from doubting their salvation. I highly doubt a protestant can say the same. I don't say that to condemn you, not to patronize, and God forbid I come off with either sentiment. But I do hope pray that some day you will come to the true faith that can produce the kind of men that can appear after death to cure a dude in my hometown of cancer. God Bless!
messengerofpadrepio.com/testimony

no

Good, although in that case you still need to explain.

We should read the scriptures as a whole truly understand it. I hold the belief that although we can never lose our salvation, we can never known until we are on our death beds and have a full trust in Christ then! But the good works we do are also a good indication but are no infallible.

The sacraments don't take away your sins or save you as rome claims.

You have just neglected John 6:44 and then made scripture contradict itself. John 3:19-21 isn't even talking about what to think it is. The only reason why you think it is, is because you impose your presuppositions on to the text.

God, being God, determines all things. This does not mean He makes you do things you don't want to do.

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Doesn't make any sense. Those things don't save you unless you do the sacraments and go mass and do the whole lot. Ultimately, you have to live everyday in fear because your salvation isn't certain. Those saints won't help you a bit unless y live a sinless life. And let's just say you go through life with no mortal sins, all those venial sins will make you spend X amount of years in the flame of purgatory.

Our trust is in the finished work on the cross. Can you say the same?

What do you mean by God determines all things? If we have free will and doesn't determine that then he doesn't determine all things and so you need to change what you just said.

Determine does not mean dictate.

What's the difference?

Ephesians 1:11

How is two people working in tandem contradictory? The Bible does not refute the idea that man can come to God, it states it explicitly in John 6:45, which explains the operation of the previous line, and in John 3:19:21
You need to explain how two people's will's working in tandem is a contradiction then
Most of us have been trying to show us that that is in fact what you are doing.

With the extraordinary power that the Holy Spirit worked through St. Padre Pio not five minutes from my old parish how could I not? God is alive with his Church, and I truly feel bad that you guys don't get to rejoce in that aspect of the faith. They don't have saints that can converse and recieve prayers directly from Christ like Marie of St. Peter, or who can give sight to a woman and with no pupils like Padre Pio, or read the sins of penitents in the confessional like the Cure of Ars, or be granted foretastes of heaven like St. Teresa of Avila, or get directly commended by Jesus like St. Thomas Aquinas, or cause the sun to dance like Our Lady of Fatima. The Catholic faith is the new home of the Holy Spirit, like Israel was the old. Protestants have tried to regain that through the charismatic movement but they'll never have the signs of that God grant's the Church, nor the comfort the bring.
Purgatory is true and eternal security is false, and if you want to learn why then Padre Pio, the man who bore the wounds of Christ, can tell you. I don't see how any Bible believing Christian can deny that he is a man of God given the countless miracles attributed to him, and he SAW the power of the sacraments firsthand.

We dont

Dare you compare yourself with saints (if they be saints)? Does their example not rather expose your wretched sinfulness?
They are lying wonders, all of them.

Matthew 5:20

And you see, this is exactly why sola scriptura is bad. The Bible itself is obviously contradictory on this. Hence, the only answer is to hold what Christians have always held and still do - salvation =faith + works. So, to argue this from a purely textual basis is absolutely pointless.

That's the purpose of tradition, the Bible is not a Shakespearian text up for analysis in a literature class. I read something Copts say and I really like it - 'Christ did not write a book, he sent His Apostles to preach. Christianity is a faith of tradition and oral teaching'. And we can obviously see that in the Bible, how many times did the Apostles say they prefer to solve matters in person rather than in letter?

So no, I'm sorry, I'm not rolling the dice on salvation because some of a German monk 1500 years after Christ said so.

Do I not mourn my wretched sinfulness every day. Indeed I do, and God come to my aid if I do not.
So why can Gemma Di Giorgio see without pupils?

Do you fear the wrath of God?
I said, lying wonders.

Girl is stunning

Despite the fact that she has no pupils and walks around without a cane?

Side note, isn't misquoting a smug post at 4 in the morning and needing to delete and repost it grand? Guess the embarrassment my punishment for getting smug over the Holy Spirit's works in the first place. Anyways gn and Holy Spirit bless u if anyone's still awake.

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Indeed! Didn't read a single word of OP's post (sorry!), could only stare at her…she's so exotic and has a sort of captivating aura.
Must be my Mediterranean blood, but I'd like a woman like this as my wife.