Why were the United States of Burgerland the only major participant of WW2 who did not field autocannons as primary armament on the majority of its fighter aircraft? Why were license-built Hispanos limited to P-38s and larger aircraft while most single engined fighters across the Navy and Air Force had to contend with 4 fiddys/wing throughout the war? Not that 50. BMGs are bad or anything, they did a fine job against Paper aircraft equipped with 30mm autocannons constructed by starving slant eyed rice farmers but if it hadn't been for Göring screwing over German heavy bomber procurement Burgerplanes wouldn't have performed as well in Europe as they did.
It bothers me to no end considering the fuckhueg Industrial base of the USA back then, how did they fuck this up when even Soviet engineers chained up in a Gulag were capable of delivering functional 20mm aircraft armaments?
USA brought licensing rights for Hispano-Suiza HS.404. Produced by Bendix, it was very unreliable, to such degree that they had 40 mln of 20mm stored but didnt pushed rearment of planes. Canons for P-38 was produced by different company.
Zachary Roberts
Gotta make sure the soldiers die, that's why the kike's goy army has shitty stuff and uses human wave. remember that they only pick men to be soldiers, that's why their military is all fags and non-whites now.
You know, the more time passes the less differences I see between snownigger and junglenigger. Sandniggers look superior to both honestly, that means a lot. The kikes are right, the cumskins (northern european races) exist to be slaves, just look how they grovel at their nigger and kike masters. Anglos, french, etc should all be killedtogether with their kike and nigger masters. Meds are the true master race, greeks are based and spaniards are ok. Everyone else gets the genocide train. >inb4 redditors saging, crying about le DnC, insulting italians, and saying they reported me
Jeremiah Watson
Most US fighters had six .50's and P-47 had eight of 'em. .50 cal was more than adequate armament back then. Might take few more hits to destroy enemy fighters and bombers, but they could carry a lot more ammunition as well. .50BMG also has higher muzzle velocity than most contemporary heavy MG and light cannon rounds, so that helped with gunnery as well.
They fucked up parts fitting with their Hispanos. They basically used too unskilled workforce on weapon that wasn't as idiot proof design as it should have been. Brits simply used properly trained gunsmiths in producing their Hispanos and as result had far less issues. I'm too lazy to check, but IIRC most serious issues were with chamber dimensions being too loose and firing pins striking too lightly. Burgers didn't solve issues until after war.
Accuracy isn't irrelevant. To get those few hits to a target with cannon you might end up wasting more ammo by weight. It isn't just hits that count, it was misses as well. What you are suggesting is that Burgers should have sent effectively unarmed fighters to the fight because most of their wartime cannons were dogshit that weren't reliable. 6 working M2's are far more effective armament than occasionally working Hispanos.
I wonder why Germans sent barely trained pilots to combat in final years of the war… prior to war Germans had adequate resources to train their pilots properly. They could have easily trained fewer better trained pilots.
WW2 dogfightan often didn't allow for long firing windows in which the enemy could be peppered with bullets until he died. Would you prefer a single violent decisive deflection burst crashing the enemy with no survivors or would you rather spend 15 minutes fierciely maneuvering to get several 1-2 second firing windows until the enemy jumps out over the english channel after his engine dies and you've spent half your ammo a good portion of which hit the enemy but didn't do enough damage? Do you really need all that >accuracy when 2-4 hits from a cannon is all it takes to kill the target? Are you implying that autocannons can't be used with some degree of accuracy when Ace related existed? Are you implying that every WW2 autocannon had the projectile trajectory, recoil and firing rate of the American 37mm T9 cannon? Are you implying that the Fw 190 with its 4 cannons wasn't an effective BnZ fighter+bomber interceptor for its time?
Didn't the problems from the Hispanos stem from the chamber being a tad short and the US refused to use the fix the English did?
Yeah no, I'll take .50bmg any day. There is a reason why the world went from muzzleloaders to selectfire guns. Volume of fire is an extremely important thing, there is a very clear reason why everyone isn't armed with a .338 rifle and a 3k scope.
The 190 had enough problem with high altitude that Herr Tank redesigned the fucking thing to actually deal with bombers, unfortunate for him the war was at the point the 152 was an outright death trap to be in.
Jose Martinez
t.butthurt mutt
Jordan Brooks
Because America was the only airforce that didn't have to shoot down large bombers like everyone else.
Ryan Hughes
You're right about volume of fire, though the MG151/20 and later models of the HS.404 weren't too bad in that regard. The .50 is by no means a bad aircraft gun but its shit at killing an aircraft quickly outside of pilot kills and/or fuel tank fires. A short burst of 20mm HE cannon shells can make short work of any single engine fighter aircraft even from behind while a fighter armed solely with .50s might have to make a second run to finish off the enemy aircraft and/or get himself involved in an unnecessary dogfight if he only manages to lightly damage it.
In the past we were, but right now I can't look at an Aryan and not feel like he has way better genes than me. We fought off the Turks, the slavskopje monkeys and the albanians and we thrived. But the moment we were governed by commies we have become the pathetic laughing stock of the Balkans Europe world. 1973 was the last good year for Greece. Ever since then we are just another shithole in the balkanland.
We are so fucking pathetic than the Albanian police executed a Greek patriot a week ago and the government not only hasn't genocided their entire country yet, they haven't even managed to get the lad's body back. The absolute fucking state of Greece. Communism was a mistake.
Could the RAF have made a heavy fighter (presumably a Mosquito or Blenheim/Beaufort/Bolingbroke) carrying a pair (or more) of their 3.7-inch AA guns? I guess the fusing could have been tricky, and the low rate fire might have been a problem; but if a 20mm HE shell is going to fuck up an aircraft then surely a 94mm He-Frag shell would do a much better job? Or am I just going for impractical overkill there?
Lincoln Long
The P-47 carried 22-24 seconds of fire for each of its guns. The .50 had shortcomings but ammo load wasn't one of them.
Other way around, the US Hispano suffered from light strikes caused by a chamber that was a little too long and it never got fixed due to a combination of an outdated bureaucratic structure and good old fashioned arrogance. IIRC every gun in the US Army with a bore larger than 0.5" fell under the control of the artillery bureau and they didn't have the knowledge and experience to produce something as finely engineered and manufactured as aircraft guns or much interest in learning from those that had it.
Levi Torres
They did make a Mosquito (the MkXVIII) that had a 57mm cannon, which reportedly worked reasonably well and flew some successful anti-ship and anti-sub sorties, as well as scoring a number of aircraft kills. Apparently a larger variant with the gun you suggest was prototyped: They say it flew fine, but I doubt its practicality. The 57mm model already only carried 25 shells.
Chase Lee
The problem with .50 is that its too small a projectile to be stable at engagement ranges, and the gun itself (m2) was just ridiculously large for what it did. Americans did boom-zoom shit mainly because their aircraft were too heavy, and a huge part of that was the garbage weapons. Of course other parts is the giant pilot and the giant fucking radial
Aaron Young
That's the AN/M1. The AN/M2 was built to the correct chamber dimensions, but then we made a bunch of other retarded changes that made the striker itself unreliable.
Ian Hall
I see. Can you elaborate on the changes? All I know is that they added an electrical recocker at some point.
Josiah Price
You have a case if you are discussing the USAAF and that is probably down to their terrible experience with the P-39 which used a 37mm autocannon that couldn't hit shit plus their claims of it hitting 300mph at high altitude despite not having a supercharger wew However the USN and USMC made massive use of autocannon armed fighters so what sort of bullshit are you spouting?
Carson Rodriguez
Germoney never invented a four engine bomber that required more substantial firepower to destroy. The .50 was the perfect gun for the job of bomber escort and strafing up trucks and soft vehicles on the ground. It obviously wasn't going to cut it for the axis powers who needed to deal with real bombers so they turned to canon. The British were retarded and believed rifle caliber guns were sufficient to destroy aircraft and when that didn't cut it they went too big. The hispanos they had also had a lot of problems with jamming during high G maneuvers.
The later models of the P-39 were able to do it, the earlier ones/lend lease to bongland weren't. Soviets didn't really care for high altitude
The 20mm's did exactly what they were designed for, fucking twin engine planes up. Everyone had a .50cal or equivalent on their planes.
What a clusterfuck.
Liam King
Good old bureaucracy.
Cannon armed Hellcats were mostly used Brits and French. Cannon armed Corsairs were used heavily by Americans in Korean War. Most those were made too late to be used in WWII, some were used in final parts of the war, most notably in Okinawa. Cannon armed Bearcats were used in Koreas as well, but Bearcat as whole entered service too late for WWII.
Bongoloids unfucked their versions of Hispano. US didn't until the end of the war.
Again, it was more because of the situation they found themselves in had no other choices. The Americans replaced nearly all their rifle caliber guns with the M3.50 before the war even began. When the canon didn't work out the .50s were already excellent at dispatching fighters which, because the Germans lacked real bombers, was all they needed. The British saw that .303 wasn't going to cut it, and had canon that were finicky. Their choices were to ether completely retool for browning M3 production, including ammo, spare parts and the whole nine yards, which I'm pretty sure they didn't even have the rights to make, or get the canon working. They rightfully chose the latter. Though it does make me think about what an aircraft mounted Besa with an increased firing rate would have looked like.
We never really fixed the Hispano, we just developed an incredibly ghetto workaround to drop the misfire rate to acceptable levels. Rather than build the chambers to spec like we had been repeatedly told to, we coated the cases in a thick layer of lubricating wax so that they wouldn't headspace correctly. The grunts thought it was insane, but it mostly worked so BuOrd decided that there must not be a problem
Jack Taylor
Because contrary to popular belief murkans always hated guns.
Bentley Moore
Not really. They mostly just collapsed on their own.
Brayden Fisher
I knew they'd used a 57mm gun for coastal patrol/antiship use, but I hadn't heard they had scored air to air kills. It's the Brits, tell 'em to drill their pilots until their shot:kill ratio approaches 1:1.
Ryan Davis
But cannon Hellcats and Corsairs only entered service in the final months of WW2, before that it was all fiddys.
I wonder how the Allied invasion of German-occupied France would've turned out if the Brits hadn't sold Merlin blueprints to the US.
there was exactly ONE air kill scored with it,a rather unlucky fighter ju88 that got absolute wreaked when the shell hit,lemme find thew source real quick
9:32 in the vid is where it talks about the air kill
Bentley Hall
US didn't have good cannon at hand and had good HMG. Most aircraft guns of WWII were big mess of jammomatic. So picking what works is right for WWII.
BTW mainstream cannons are overrated. WWII 50. BMG is better than WWII 20mm against bombers. FACT. But it was not known during WWII. Scientific tests were done only after war.
So … what you're saying is that we'll need to use a much, much, much larger cannon in order to fire a shell with a much, much, much larger blast radius to make it an effective weapon for unguided, uncomputerized, air to air combat?
How large a plane are we going to need multiply the largest airlift capacity by a factor of 5.7?
Alexander Robinson
Just bring back monitors with big guns. The bongs once mounted a 18" gun on a monitor: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL_18_inch_Mk_I_naval_gun en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Lord_Clive Mind you, that 18" is just slightly smaller than the Yamato's main guns, and it actually fires a heavier projectile. Imagine what would happen if you modernized it with Gerald Bull's ideas, gave it an autoloader, and backed it up with a radar and modern fire controls. A simple HE shell with a proximity fuse would be enough to take down any aircraft.
Ethan Bell
Why?
Pretty basic stuff. Also, Armour Piercing Incendiary ammunition was very effective and the USAAF was mainly shooting it at fighter planes, not armoured bombers. Swap USAAF aircraft with the Luftwaffe and make them attack B-17's and B-24's and you'd see why cannons were all the rage for the Axis.
Jacob Cruz
user, you need to think bigger; just stick a nuke on a rocket and aim in the general direction of the enemy formation. Alternatively just use a remote controlled plane like a nuclear fire ship.
Nice dubs, that would be far more practical, efficient, and useful. while dramatically reducing the cost of maintaining a theater-wide IADS net. So almost certainly never going to happen until about half way through WW3 when politicians decide they care more about effectiveness than transferring taxpayers cash to their (((friends))). Still though, HMS Lord Clive That poor gun, brought back from the scrapyard for a triumphant return to active service, given a task just perfect for it, and then only getting to fire four more times in anger before being decommissioned and scrapped 12 years later. That's just sad.
Using nukes in a design just feels like you're saying "Fuck it, I can't figure out how to make this work, just NUKE IT". If we can't figure out how to do this with good old fashioned shrapnel then what's the point?
Benjamin Watson
.50 API is better against "armoured bombers" than 20mm HE.
James Hughes
try playing arcade mode on war thunder, it is a pretty accurate depiction of what ye olde dogfights felt like Bonus round: play on an old shitty chinkpad while barely managing sub-10fps it is called spray and pray for a reason
At the very least go with something that pretends to be realistic.
Eli Nguyen
.50s aren't that great in Sim mode compared to cannons, it's much harder to get sustained hits on targets there mostly due to their lesser structural damage output compared to high explosive cannon shells.
t. ran out of cannon ammo with the P-38 in SB and had to make 3 .50cal bursts at deflection to force an A7M to spin out at low altitude, even though earlier I'd torn off a paper bomber's wing in a single gun run with the cannon.
Carson Gomez
*much harder to get enough sustained hits on target to cause structural failure there
Levi Turner
War Thunder nerfs all weapons 3-10 tiems compare to IRl, otherwise over-skilled virtual pilots flying perfectly smooth virtual planes would be too deadly.
did it get any better? Last time I tried going up against B-25s it wasn't so bad as long as you came in diagonally at high speed. H8Ks on the other hand…
James Gonzalez
and that goes before you even consider reliability or ammunition and parts logistics. American airplanes needed to be shipped or flown thousands of miles to even reach the combat theater.
Julian Gray
Speaking historically the Luftwaffe's tactic for initiation was high speed passes from above and the front of the bomber formations. With the first few flights attempting to draw off the escorts.
Pretty much neccesitated the use of cannons on german fighters because they might only get one pass at the bomber formation and needed to put as much damage into those large targets as quickly as possible.
Landon Fisher
That's everyone's tactic in War Thunder SB because it's the one of the few with any decent chance of survival for the attacking fighter. If the bomber didn't died from that though high speed sideswipes or whatever one desires to call them are the only real option left. Funnily enough there is RL guncam footage of Bf 110s safely engaging B-17s just by firing some 20mm into the tailgunner's position and then going from there.
Aaron Lewis
The bomber's escorts are just as dangerous as the bomber's turrets proper. A high speed pass on the front means the escorts need to do a 180 to purse you, which by netwon's third law is a huge energy expenditure and it draws them away from the bombers they're trying to protect. You're keeping your speed up going straight with the boom and zoom and the escorts lose lots of airspeed turning to chase you.
It isn't suprising that a BF110 unmolested by escorts can wreck from behind. Especially true when you're using cannons that outrange the B-17's turrets.
Thomas Howard
Music is much better than that disko stuff you used before. I'm just getting into rank 4 for the Luftwaffe and my highest tank is 5.7, what do you suggest for my next nation for fighters or ground forces? I've been playing on and off for 6 years but only switched to RB last year, is sim battles worth checking out?
it is an even bigger deal at high altitudes where thin air reduces the performance of engines, propellers and the control and flight surfaces. You might achieve a great cruise speed but you're halfway to outer space and the lack of density in the air really matters.
Jaxon Collins
that spoiler was also referring to the sheer insane amount of luck it'd take a Bf 110 to get close enough for making precise cannon shots on the B-17's tailgunner without getting shoah'd by said gunner from 1km range back in the olden days of shit thunder.
I never played RB much because the Radar HUD prevent me from doing Erich Hartmann ERP. Sim requires a joystick and headtracker, it can be fun but the game clearly isn't designed around it as evidenced by the suffering gunship bombers with CIWS gunners balanced against countering third party RB mouseaim snipe fighters from 1km inflicted on many an SBfighter pilot flying T4 fighter aircraft from the cockpit with no HUD beyond the IAS/altitude/fuel and damage indicators. It got so bad that there was a revolt on the forums where some players banded together as the anti-bomber police whose sole purpose was to TK any B-17 tier gunship on their teams. Last time I played AI gunners weren't as OP anymore, and in some recent update the third party gunner view was removed from a number of aircraft, haven't tried it but I hope it fixed the issue of bomber pilots mouse-sniping everything while in 3rd person view autopilot. Dunno, I never liked the Soviet tree much due to the Yak's inverted prop wash, most Soviet planes having overly aggressive stall characteristics and generally retarded balancing across the board. Burgers are decent if you stick to pure BnZ, Brits I only played at lower tiers and everything on the Nip tree past the A6M3 was pure suffering until they introduced the H8K, J2M2 and A7M burger fryers.
Justin Jenkins
feels bad
Henry Scott
What do you expect, it's a heavy fighter going up against planes easily capable of outmaneuvering it without falling apart beyond 500 km/h. It ain't so bad against the 190 though as it can outturn that one while still retaining decent amounts of energy.
Jack Morgan
not since vietnam. And before then, everyone(including germany) was doing it. Not at war lol. They may be able to hold isolated mountain passes and valleys, but they cant barely conquer each other. If we want to actually annex a nation in the middle east, we could do it in a few months if Washington was also behind it.
I'd bet the liscence-built hispanos were fucked up by the different inch standards between various euro countries and America at the time, everyone's inch was a bit different and lead to the more precise interchangeable parts not really being interchangeable, this wasn't fully resolved until 43 or maybe 44 iirc, not exactly sure
actual (private)pilot here, whats a good joystick to get for warthunder? Played with my muse+kb, feel like it would be great with a good joystick, but I don't want to waste my money.
Joshua Ward
The Thrustmaster T16000M FCS is breddy gud for its price.
WoWp is also pretty fun, but the relatively long TTK (~5sec) causes a bias in favor of cannons and turnfighters, therefore making spitfires almost retardproof.
Christopher Martinez
Get a full set with rudder pedals and a separate throttle with other controls including flaps. Pedals > 3 axis stick
Julian Ramirez
...
Christian Collins
...
Nolan Jenkins
it may have not been god tier armament, but almost every other nation in the war made the move to put HMGs on their fighters. that has to account for something.
While WT's fligth models are'n perfect they're generally much better than Warplanes. I'm not a fan of health bars, even though bouncing 3 shots off the side of an M4 at point blank in a Tiger is really fucking annoying I've survived many shots because the enemy tank doesn't know how to aim or keeps shooting me when I'm angled at my thickest armour. That being said it's obviously preference for fun at reduced realism or more realism (which some won't find fun).
A real human bean, he died LARPing just to take out a few more zogbots.
Hey, they're the leaders the Krautroaches chose or submitted to.
Joseph Gray
I didn't realize swamp-Germans were butthurt so easily.
Noah Morris
Hey, a Dutch world order would have been better for everyone. Loads of business, loads of trade, coffee chocolate and weed for every budget.
Levi Rivera
Le epic bait 4chan graphic.
Rome had it coming for them with granting everyone citizenship, hunnic invasion, divided empire and internal instability. Jew. WW1 declaration was a chain of alliances which escalated into a continent wide conflict. Blame the invention of machine guns for such an attritional war. It is not like England and France turned Europe into a timebomb with the new borders and treaty of Versailles. War was inevitable. Puppet leader set up by Americans. Germans can nowadays not democratically elect a leader that cares for the people.
Go back to 4/k/ and jerk off with high torries about how Hitler did meth and everyone who doesn't praise Deep Battle and le glorious Sherman 24/7 is a Wehraboo.
Ethan Watson
So progressive.
Leo Powell
H*Pa
Leo Wilson
Shut up turk.
Anthony Morgan
Sadece hayatına gül
Dominic Martinez
So what's it going to take to have a good fighter thread? Is it too sterile and already figured out with hours of online videos or too sloppy and general and mutable on the exact aircraft involved that it is impossible?
Because I'm getting better at choosing my engagements and managing my angle-off so I can land enough seconds of shots on my boom and zoom with an option to enter the fight without overshooting, but I know I can fly smarter.
Even being able to choose between a one-circle and two-circle fight is huge.
Nathaniel Richardson
How good would WW2 era planes if we replaced their piston engines with modern turboprops, made them out of modern composites and alloys and gave them rudimentary electronics?
Owen Long
They'd make for nice COIN/low cost light attack aircraft.
Carter Cook
Yes.
Fuck no. Why do you want x10 cost of build and x100 cost of damage repairs for the 20-30% increase of load? Nope.
Brayden Rodriguez
I'm still waiting for that Super P-38 to become real.
Turboprops are on the wrong side of history, and America is about nothing so much as progress. They made Democracy possible, they made feminism popular, they made racial equality cool and they made the Jewish century a reality. It's far better to have a $100,000,000 jet that can't fly than a $5,000,000 turboprop that looks old and gross, like something your racist, sexist, antisemitic grandpa flew in. Also, Lockheeb doesn't know how to make turbine work, so how are we going to make a $75,000,000 gen-VI stealth air superiority supersonic turboprop?
But jets can do COIN. The chair force just hates everything ground attack with a burning passion because they all want to be Tom Cruise and not actually help win wars.
Not nearly as efficiently as a turboprop designed for the role. Shit, a B2 could do COIN if you really wanted it to - doesn't mean it's a sensible decision.
