SMG thread

You have an autistic definition of submachine gun, user.

Go shoot yourself with your fully semiautomatic assault sporter rifle/15" barrel pistol with an arm brace, mr. ATF agent.

On an SMG? Are you high? Even simple open-bolt blowback works just dandy on an SMG, there is literally no need for the amount of complexity, cost and weight gas-operation brings. Unless you believe pistols should be gas-operated, too.

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First of all, mostly covers this thread. SMGs are only good for police duty where you do want to limit your firepower. And at that point a machine pistol with a brace and a RoF limiter would be perfectly fine.

Submachine gun was invented by general Thompson to market his automatic weapon. Machine pistol would make a lot more sense, after all most languages use that term for this category of weapons. It's similar to how German and English uses Sturmgewehr (and its translation), which was a propaganda term. Maschinenkarabiner (machine carbine) would be a much better name.

A pistol action given automatic fire capability isn't a submachine gun. A shortened rifle is also not a submachine gun. If those things were true, then that would necessarily imply that the Glock 18, the AKS-74U, and the Colt Commando are all submachine guns. Since all of those are closed bolt designs, two are rifle caliber, and one has a magazine that feeds into the grip, then we must assume these are all features which are acceptable on SMGs by definition and not belonging to other types of designs. By logical extension we can determine that submachine guns are exactly the same thing as rifles, and pistols, despite a full century of historical and engineering knowledge lending towards the contrary, and all the world's pioneers of SMGs disagreeing with this implication.

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Is there any small caliber suited for SMGs that can penetrate armor? My biggest issue with SMGs is that against an armored opponent they're trash, and even 60IQ tyrone can order a level 4 plate online.

Not that user, but he's right.

Compare the weight of the gas-operated Type 79 submachine gun (1.75kg)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_79_submachine_gun

to the Soviet PPS-43 submachine gun (3.04kg)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPS_submachine_gun

or to the Yugoslav M56 submachine gun (3kg)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M56_submachine_gun

…and think also that a gas-operated SNG can be designed to fire from a closed bolt in semi and open bolt in full-auto, which would give a significant accuracy advantage.

Only in case of most modern ones using 9mm. If we take a better round things change a lot and reveal how close to SMGs our modern rifles are in terms of power. For example, 10mm from 13" barrel matches 5.56 from 16" and .357 magnum in 16" barrel(i'm not using SIG because it falls behind in longer barrels, let's imply that we have it improved to magnum levels or at least take .357 magnum rimless and use a revolver with a moon clip to call it "pistol") matches many 5.56 loads from 20" barrel and all but(maybe) the hottest loads from 18"-. Sure, there's still BC to consider but this still shows something.

Paul Harrell has video on PCC where he shows that even 9mm ones can penetrate 3A body armor. Other than that, against level 4 your usual rifle rounds won't do either so unless you use a battle rifle with .308 AP(or does it stop even this?) you're out of luck and have to shoot someplace else, good thing the armor only protects his chest.

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What is your definition of a submachine gun, machine pistol, pistol, rifle, etc?

The point of a submachine gun is that it fires pistol ammunition. The point of a pistol is that you can use it effectively with one hand if you have to, and that greatly limits the cartridge. With all of that your only option would be 6.5mm CKJ, a Swedish cartridge based on 9mm Parabellum. But that has to use a tungsten core, which makes it way too expensive for a mere pistol cartridge.

MP5K - 2kg
Sig MPX(gas operated) - 2.7kg
Beretta Cx4 Storm(16" barrel) - 2.5kg
Agram 2000 - 1.8kg
Jatmatic - 1.65kg
And these are not "machine pistols" that can easily weigh even less.

Type 79 also seems to use plastic receiver, compared to full metal ones in your examples. Its light weight might also cause durability problems(knowing chinks, especially) and paired with its EXTREME rate of fire at 1000rpm would be almost uncontrollable, limiting its use. Remember, most firearms are overbuilt and reducing fire rate is often done by increasing bolt weight.

That's some high-level autism. If you can fire it from closed bolt in semiauto, go with it in full auto as well, it'll improve your accuracy and remove the need for this autism while the only disadvantage compared to open bolt would be a bit more heat but it's not a MG so who cares.

Pistol cartridges are useless even at 200m, so they shouldn't be the main weapon of an infantry squad even if you adhere to the 300m doctrine that dominates current thinking. And if they aren't the main weapon, then you are just adding an other weapon to the mix for no good reason.
That's a problem with the modern idea of the assault rifle, it's just a glorified submachine gun.
Or just take any weapon chambered for 9x25mm Mauser Export.

Has anyone made a submachine gun that uses blow-forward? That seems like the only viable place to use it because SMGs were never intended to be very accurate.

also, interdynamic MP-9 - 1.7 kg
Vityaz-SN - 2.9kg

Most of these guns are straight blowback that is the most straightforward and heaviest of blowbacks, to achieve ROF to matche type 79 we could have a polymer receiver thinned up open bolt gun with a lightened bolt and it'd prob weight almost the same if not less, using even lever-delayed would significantly decrease the weight required and gas-delayed blowback is the absolute lightest system you can get, though i'd better use it in pistols because of heat.

Heavier spitzer bullets. You can still use them in your pistol, albeit with more recoil, flash and drop and vice versa.
Wholeheartedly agree.
It's still better than the successful m1 carbine as you use the same ammo as your issued pistols while removing the need to fiddle with the main rifle to please those in need of PDW so that you have to balance between GPMGs, snipers and service rifles only which can be done a lot easier because of longer barrels they all use with 6-6.5mm cartridge.
Well, not quite but i do agree.
These guns are a bit too old and dated for modern use though and 9x25ME would have a hard time fitting in the grip of a modern handgun when even 10mm does. I've thought on it and even did picrelated autism and posted it one one of the previous threads but nobody r8ednotice me senpai.

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Yeah, i've found on Belgian Wikipedia info on vbr-b and it's 1.5kg blowback.

Can't find any information on this. Sauce?

He meant 6.5mm CBJ, it's a typo.

That's why I pointed at the PDW thread, we will end up discussing the same things. See:
It's literally as long as 7.62 Tokarev, and that cartridge is longer than 10mm Auto. It obviously won't fit into a weapon designed for 9mm Parabellum, but you could redesign nearly any of them for it without changing the external dimensions. Like that relatively new chink pistol for 7.62 Tokarev that is otherwise a straight copy of an older Sig Sauer pistol.
The problem is that you'd have to make this cartridge, load it into a pistol, and do some tests to figure out what it can really do. You could actually do it if you had 10mm Auto brass and reloading tools for .357 SIG. Making the barrel would be a bit trickier, but you'd just have to push the .357 SIG's tool down a bit deeper to cut the chamber.

I messed up the name.
gotavapen.se/gota/cbj/cbj_crtg.htm
cbjtech.com/ammunition/6-5x25-cbj/6-5x25-cbj-ball/

There is the 7.5x28 round developed by BRNO that gets you to within ~10% of .30 carbine power out of a 6" barrel. It's also just a slightly lengthened and necked down 10mm.

If you really want to pierce armour you'll have to go the sabot route. Take a .475 Wildey magnum and load it up with m80A1 in a sabot and blast it at ~2400 fps out of a pistol and ~2650fps out of a smg.

I really want a smg in these ridiculous auto-magnum calibers.

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I've also digged in Russian SMGs and there are a few interesting ones. Most of them are lightweight too.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PP-91_KEDR - 1.54-1.57kg
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PP-2000 - 1.4kg
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bizon_SMG - 2.1kg, has 60% parts commonality with AKS-74
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SR-2_Veresk - 1.65kg
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PP-90M1 - 2.06kg
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OTs-02_Kiparis - 1.6kg
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PP-93 - 1.47kg

And also
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brügger_&_Thomet_MP9 - 1.3-1.4kg
It seems most modern SMGs have given up on controllability and just reduce weight with increase of ROF. Kind of feels like the symbol of the decay of the weapon class.

Yeah, that thread was the thing that pushed me to make this one, i wanted a bit more attention towards SMGs specifically but there's an overlap in the roles of the weapons, obviously.
5.7 is even longer but it can pull this out because it's so thin. That's why there have been complaints about the size of 10mm double stack even though it's shorter. it's not as much about the design but about comfort and size - 10mm as a "full power" pistol cartridge in double stacks is fine(with proper design) but really stretching it, especially with double feed.
Yeah, but i assumed that it'd be something inbetween 9x25 dillon and 357sig as it's almost perfectly in the middle in dimensions.
Well, because of my flag you can see that i cannot, but there'd be issues with that - there's 9x25mm dillon that does exactly that - necks 10mm with a 357 sig die, while my cartridge requires to go beyond that as you lower the shoulder and prolong the neck and i'm unsure if you can even do this with 357 sig die. Can you push the die beyond that point?

Something between a pistol cartridge and a full rifle cartridge? Something like 5.56x45 or 5.45x39 or maybe 7.62x39? We can only hope that some enterprising genius gunsmith will stumble upon this answer and revolutionize the industry with small, light, low-recoil rifles effective at ranges out to 600 meters.

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I was thinking .30 Carbine.
The P90 had the right idea with a small but high velocity round, capable of penetrating armor with a large magazine to boot. It feels like innovation in SMGs ended with the P90, because there's nothing else notable other than maybe the MP7 and Vector.

I'm inclined to agree with you, at least partially, although there are other things to consider such as many Slavic languages who have no original term for submachine guns and simply have a generic category for 'automatic weapons that aren't machine guns' (avtomat, samopal, etc.) which includes both subguns and carbines - in some rare cases even full length rifles. American society in general lends itself more towards a familiarity with guns, which is why we have several terms other nations and languages don't use; 'battle rifle' is a common example. Other peoples simply call it a rifle or use their 'assault rifle' analogue despite a full-power rifle cartridge overpowered and cumbersome for assault tactics.

This subject is always interesting to me because no language is as analytical about it as English, but ultimately there are so many things that blur definable lines (such as the ZK-383 which is either an SMG or an LMG, or the Villar-Perosa which is a pistol caliber aircraft machine gun) that it becomes a bit subjective and comes down to discussions of linguistics at times. It's a fun thing to autism about.

For example, the M1 Carbine is a rifle, but .30 Carbine is shaped like a pistol cartridge and performs similar to .357 Magnum… but its pressure curve was designed for the 18" barrel specifically, making it a definite rifle round.

I call the MP5 a PCC since it's a cut down G3.

That faggot's shitposting, don't go for the bait.

.357 magnum can shoot 158gr bullet at the same velocities as 110gr 30 carbine does, resulting in more energy. 144gr 30carbine does have 2" less drop at 200yds than 158gr 357, though 170+gr magnum can probably match that, i dunno. .357 magnum is really a great cartridge, my favorite as well, even if only in theory.

In Russia they make AP pistol rounds with a steel penetrator that is separated from the jacket by polyethylene layer so that it stays in one piece when entering soft tissue and probably even expanding and when it hits a hard barrier the core separates from the jacket and punches through. They are very velocity dependent and not very aerodynamic, though, but it's a lot better than creating a whole new cartridge and weapons for that purpose.

I should have added, the Skorpion blends the machine pistol/SMG distinction, but I place it as an MP in my book specifically because of its design - the Czechs tuned its shape and weight balance for one-handed automatic fire because they wanted it to serve as both a rear echelon PDW style of weapon and a sidearm to a rifle, and included the recoil/rate of fire regulator feature to make that easy. Their choice of .32 ACP was clear for that too, since they had a large amount of 9mm Parabellum in their inventory and deliberately went with a weaker, more controllable round. But, they also included the stock for ranged shooting, which helped make it a less situational gun. Really, the Vz. 61 is a very unique weapon on its own, and I can't think of another thing that compares directly to it except for - maybe the HK MP7?

Pic related is a holster for carrying a Skorpion on the hip, to enable one-handed draws.

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It feels like overly complicating things. Call anything that fires pistol cartridges and is longer than a handgun and/or capable of automatic fire an SMG and have subclasses like machine pistol for a pistol-sized or maybe with magazine inside the grip SMG and call a PCC any semiautomatic SMG. Other than that, just compare actual models and their traits to fit a special purpose. That'd simplify things a lot. I don't know where and how to push the term PDW in here, though.

If we're looking at the purpose of the weapons then take a look at APS stechkin and this one en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OTs-33_Pernach as they too have been viewed kinda for this role.

Aware, I just wanted to talk about how .30 Carbine had the right idea.
I know that .30 Carbine isn't a particularly well designed cartridge but it and the gun it accompanied did introduce some interesting and fresh ideas into firearms design. Interesting nonetheless, has anybody ever put a .357 in a SMG? It's been put in autoloading pistols before with the Deagle brand Deagle and that Coonan pistol.
5.7 essentially feels like a more modern take on the same ideas and it essentially perfected balancing recoil, velocity, energy and AP potential for something roughly .30 Carbine sized, and at the same time it can also function as a pistol round.
I've heard of them, sounds like a good solution to the problem. The velocity dependence doesn't sound like a big issue in the sub-100m distances you expect SMGs and pistols to be used, it sounds like it does the job 'good enough' to get it done. The primary issue I could see from being velocity dependent is that it would limit its potential when you'd want to go subsonic & suppressed with it, as it wouldn't carry too much energy and hence wouldn't do too much damage.

There was some Venezuelan abomination called "Tor" but that's it. Many attempts to copy it in rimless package have been made, with .357 sig being the most successful. There's also 357 magnum rimless and 357 maximum rimless that are made from 5.56 brass before it's formed and they fit into an AR and even sometimes called that way(.357 AR). Pistol caliber carbine manufacturers also slowly adopting 357 sig and i've heard that even some country wanted to issue it as their main cartridge, iirc.

It's thinner and takes a lot less space in handguns that 30 carbine, has lower energy than 9mm, significant muzzle blast and either insufficient or overpenetration. It's main pros is weight, capacity and armor piercing ability, that's it, though i'd add the use of double stack and lever delayed as a personal preference because i really dig these engineering principles, despite their application. Paul Harrell has a great video on it and explains it a lot better and in more detail than me so if you're interested go watch it.
There's been pistols chambered in 30 carbine.

Think of 30-50m instead, sub 100m are usually effective distances for 9mm and this one is basically an overpressured 9mm in one of the variants. There're also 9x21mm rounds that are more powerful and they boast penetration of 4mm of steel at 100m but there's not much data, lots of propaganda and even less info on how it'd translate into effectiveness so go figure, especially from an smg that turned out to be shitty. Overall, it's specialized ammo, not general purpose one and i'm still unsure if it's even capable of anything other than punching holes of at least its caliber and not icepick. It's a way to defeat body armor but i wouldn't put much faith into it beyond that point.

Ah, i found the info the very best 9x21mm AP bullet penetrates IIIA body armor at 50m. Barrel length - 4.9". If you're using smg add 25m, i guess. If you're using 9x19 then it's less than that. Again, this is AP ammo, first and foremost, it'll do some damage where other would do none but it will perform slightly better than flat nosed FMJ at best if i understand anything.

Also, the bullets are really light and seem to be pretty big and are seated deep in the casing because even the fancy 9x21mm has similar muzzle energy to your average 9mm load(no +p levels anywhere besides pressure).

The perfect SMG already exists. Its called the MP5/10

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wrong again libtard

MP10, fuck. Disregard me, I inhale dongs.

Can this run full load 10 or do you need to load down on the powder?

Captcha:gnspue

Yeah you do. MP5 is damn sexy, though.

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I know you're an Aussie, so your're just shitposting as per your national tradition, but this is some low-quality bait.

You're a mad cunt.
Thankfully, got my back.

I see the point in your distinctions, but they are too autstic for my taste.
The difference between MP and SMG is purely arbritary, and I don't see the point in adding more confusion with the "subcarbine" category.

Guns should best be described by role first, like LMG, GPMG and HMG.

You metioned the Skorpion as an example for MP, yet it is not a pistol at all, and was never designed as one. Neither was it intended to be.
All this pointless semantics is leading nowhere.
The MP18 was the first SMG by all definitions but was literally named "Machine Pistol 18".

I would tend to agree with , if there weren't some particularly autism with the MP5, like factory-zeroed sights only and the mags not being designed to be dropped.

All in all, it seems as though there just is no real need for more advancement in SMG tech anymore. If anything, the whole class is being swallowed up by the burgers pushing for "muh pistol calibre carbines", because apparently everything needs to be an AR-platform.

Plus, the latest "advancements" in that field, the MP7 and the Vektor, were just hot garbage. The first one because the round couldn't kill a late-stage cancer patient, and the latter is just so bad, I am convinced they designed it as a troll.

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I don't think you understand the power of krupp steel

Well its got the (((proprietary))) claw mount system and H&Gay are making the latest ones with rail welded to them from the factory. The 10 also has things the 5 desperately needed, but never had because its a 60 year old design like a bolt catch on empty and a release for said catch. Strangely enough the new 5s don't have those features because kraut autism stating its perfect the way it is despite simple but big quality of life improvements being so close you can taste them like the Borchardt.

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What is it? I can't seem to find this one, only TP9.

So a short MPX type weapon in 10mm?

Also, SMGs, at least ones like the regular MP5 are kind of obsolete in a world of good AR SBRs, especially for the average American, where the same tax stamps and hassle is required regardless of caliber.
However, if you're seriously worried about overpenetearion, and can ignore gun laws, modern SMG's like the P90 and MP7 have a place. The totally unsourced, third hand accounts I've heard from friends closer to the action say things to the effect of, "with a P90 or MP7 you can magdump a motherfucker really fast, and the odds are decent you'll need to"

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A fictional TP9 in 10mm. I second that idea.

I like that AR lad, very gucci, although the tape paint job is a little rough. Is that an IR laser? What are you running for night vision if so? Can you see through that elcan with your goggles on? Also, what are those BUIS?
Does it not bother your hand? The grip and and finger groove always made it a pain to hold.
Lets say you had unlimited money for ammo, would you use some of that 77gr stuff in your SBR?

I'm not him, but I can answer your question. The reason for the PEQ-15 is specifically because he can't use his sights or optics with nods on. I agree though, I like that camo job. Not as good as mine, but pretty cool.

Interesting thoughts, my borscht eating friend.

You missed the part where I had this in mind as a woods-gun. You do NOT go up against a big boi with a 9x19. Alaskans already use the mighty ten against polar bear.
Including chamber you can have a barrel length of 6-8 inches given that 10mm only requires 1.3 inches in order to reliably clear the action. Using a short, high compression strength spring with a telescoping bolt or underslinging the spring means that the action can be very small indeed, especially since….
….it is much easier to make a smaller and lighter and stronger action by using a gas system. In order to deal with the amount of bolt-force from a properly loaded 10mm all day erryday, you would require a lot of tool-steel behind the chamber to not blow the gun the fuck apart, which also contributes to recoil and drastically slows fire rate and contributes to overall wear and tear on the gun. A gas system mounted an inch in front of the chamber can be adjusted to your ammo to give the correct amount of bolt travel instead of ramming it into your palm all the time.
Because cast bullets don't like polygonal.
Revolvers like the ruger bisley use a windage adjustable sight and a front sight that looks exactly like stairs from the front to give you absolute control over where your shot lands. I have no idea what the actual name for them is.
With a gun this short, you need all the sight radius you can get. Adding a muzzle-brake means you're adding more length to a gun designed to be small, and slip on suppressors exist for being vewy qwiet.
It will if you mount it only a very short distance after the chamber.
Combine trigger-grip with forward grip for this.
It is easier to sell a gun that uses existing parts than to add your proprietary magazines into place.

Not really a good idea to limit yourself by that. A more versatile weapon would fit this but other roles as well nicely.
They also use the mighty 357magnum, especially since heavier bullets would offer better penetration and longer barrel more energy than any 10mm handgun.
It'd work but it's easier to increase the size of the weapon a bit and use a normal spring that's cheaper and would work just fine but whatever you want, it's not like we can't have different designs in the same class.
I don't like this, it'd shift center of gravity too much reducing handling characteristics of the gun and making the blot more complex both to machine, maintain and repair.
It's not, read the thread.
And a gas system on a short barrel would fuck everything good that was left in the gun.
Ok, your choice.
Could you post a picture, please? i found the thing but i still don't get how it helps or even whether i found the right thing. I'd also prefer easily swappable(like they do on handguns, why the fuck that's not standard) fixed front sights and adjustable rear peer sights.
You'll still probably not mount the sights on the muzzle. You could probably mount it on the handguard, even.
You could just cut your barrel down and have the same OAL if you need to, or go even shorter and have it integrally suppressed under the handguard.
It won't, it'll also ruin the barrel harmonics in lengths this short. That's all if you somehow even manage this ugly abomination cycle.
You still need to get your support hand somewhere - it's a bad idea to use your main hand for that. Unless you want to hold it to the rear with your left hand or are left-handed you want 3 common points to hold the gun with - shoulder, cheek and support hand. If you need to get space that much just get a forward grip like P90.
And it'll be a lot easier when they jam, need to be reload in stressful conditions and spend less money. Don't support cancer because it's convenient, if you do the industry will forever be stuck with stupid shit that's only good for making the jews money.

Its main pro is minimal recoil making automatic fire off hand actually useful. But machineguns are banned for civilians (too dangrous) so civilians look at all guns from their civilian semiautomatic point of view. They can't comprehend goodness of full auto.

Also 5.7 was designed to work in straight blowback guns. What made sense for mass issue PDW.

Oh, fuck off you faggot. You're already shitting another thread with your m855a1 shilling and now you sperg about something "civilians can't comprehend" and "too dangerous".

Any rimless pistol round is, you dipshit, and FiveseveN is not straight blowback.

If you triggers by something it doesn't makes it less right. Go ahead prove me wrong.

Any rimless pistol round couldn't fullfill other PDW requirements of recoil and penetration. This is more comparison with HK 4.6×30mm

P90 is. Kinda. Also there are pure straight blowback 5.7 guns. AR57, Masterpiece Arms pistol and Excel Arms rifle.

Prove yourself right, you jewish shilling piece of shit.

Except the requirements are rigged to only include your jewish shit. 9mm SMG penetrates all the body armor 5.7 does and recoil is just as nonexistent but they'll never mention it.

Wow, what a fucking discovery

Pidorashka ignored.

Agains shill ate its shit. Fuck off to cuckchan, cunt.

MP5 and nothing else. SMGs are kinda obsolete for most purposes these days, as such what you chose isn't going to matter much but since it's not going to matter you may well just go for the objective best.
If you're looking for something to just have fun with MACs are there, Uzis are also objectively decent. The Beretta M12 is also good but most importantly it looks nice.

In the end, if you're going to go for an SMG go for something from WW2 because they're cool and that's about when they reached peak relevance.

In any case:
If they're SMGs for civs they are for mall ninjas because serious shooters don't buy SMGs. Why would you? They're objectively useless.
SMGs exist for 3rd world police departments and sheer fun factor. Even the spec-ops niggers aren't using SMGs anymore. The AR-15 is The One Rifle to Rule Them All.
Pics related make my dick hard every time I see them.
No Blichlock please, it's expensive and doesn't do anything.
Light, tight and good looking. Granted the Thompson ways a lot but that's also why it doesn't shoot like utter garbage. You know…because it's in .45.
9mm Parabellum and nothing else.

If I could own any 1 SMG it would be the M1A1 Thompson just because it's pure sex. If I could own 3 it would be the Thompson, Mp40 and Beretta M12(I have an irrational preference, the MP5 is objectively better but that's life for ya!).

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The first thing you do when you design anything is to ask what and why. A properly loaded 10mm subgun easily matches .357 mag in energy, with the added advantages of three point mounting and a higher ammo capacity for a similar form factor as a hunter's 8 inch barreled .357, and a similar draw time in hairy, close-in situations. This is why I am unwilling to compromise on size- any larger and you'd legitimately need it on a sling all the time, which makes it in the way if you need to do anything with two hands-such as if you were fishing and suddenly a hungry animal(s) likes the salmon you just hooked. A handgun might do it, a revolver definitely will, and a subgun exactly the same size, same or better power, better weapon retention and aiming plus far more ammo available means it's a superior weapon for this situation.
It could be done with a conventional bolting system, as after 7" of barrel you still have five inches of action left- well and truely enough for a short springer action. The real advantage that a telescoping bolt system would have is that you could mount the action even further into the rear if you wanted to bullpup the gun and let it have even more barrel. Really, I'm open to either. Classic bolt as you say for easier machining where CNC machines are not available and easier field stripping, or a telescoping bolt where a bullpup is demanded.

I did mate. The simplest answer is that high pressure cartridges DO NOT use blowback because it would send the bolt clean through the chassis.
How? AR/AK pistols don't seem to have issues here. If you can get 2-3MOA for this gun, you're golden here, as 10mm cuts a rainbow past 125 and requires careful aim- you're not going past 175 under any stretch.
Can do, though I admit it's a kinda shitty pic for purpose. Basically pic related. The front sight has a series of steps leading up to the top of the sight that you can clearly align with the rear, making any gun fitted with these sights able to drop compensate real damned quick.
You want less radius so that you can pick off targets from a distance with the given sight setup. A stair-step mounted up close would look like a block in front of your target.
Doable considering barrel lengths are just a matter of where you put the parting off tool after rifling, though you'd be turning it into a short and quiet kebab removal tool also fine by me than a survivalist's short gun.
Provided you can mount the section of barrel that has the gas system to the chassis the rest of the barrel is not affected. Direct impingement varmint rifles exist, and the gun cycling is just a matter of adjusting the flow until it gives you the result you want.
These two I am willing to simply fold on because furniture design can be played with. We could have a proprietary double feed mag mounted forward of the trigger-grip for ease of manufacture, or go balls to the wall and have the same mag mounted inside the grip with a telescoping bolt for up to nine inches of barrel length for the same form.

I'm appreciating every single criticism you can come up with, as it means I have to really refine and defend the design choices I want and redo where you've pointed out it might not work.

Keep slapping my shit.

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That's an interesting point, since they also started being obsolete by 1945, thanks to the StG and VG.

I always thought that SMGs were the perfect weapon for home defense, actually.

See pic related for the best home defense weapon ever created.

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Move aside you fucking pleb

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kek no

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Wrong.

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DA NYAAAAA

That one is too late to the game.

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You mean that ugly fucking failure of a gun that had its asshole ripped wide open by the P90 during trials and only was accepted by NATO because the krauts bitched and moan and vetoed the whole test because FN won?

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Gentlemen, behold: Mekanika Uru.
Sadly, only about 10k of them were ever made. Complete guns are going for $4k-$6k nowadays.

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Yeah, nah, the barrels are the most difficult part to make, and those are the parts that are regulated in pretty much all countries outside of the USA.

Only because of the usage of soyboy pistol rounds that don't do shit, but you're right, unfortunately. They are still very good options for home defense even on semi auto.
That's only true if you don't call it an SMG:^)
That's your problem, user. You could have so much more and you use a cartridge they would only come close to 357magnum from a whole lot longer barrel. Read the thread and you'll see the truth at last.
That's now what objective means, user.

This guy gets it. Unless Attacker has body armor(that'd only limit the effectiveness but would still fail unless its hard so it wouldn't matter) it limits overpenetration and longer barrel offers quite a step up in lethality and stock, greater sights radius and all these benefits of a long weapon grant a huge step up in firepower, precision, controllability and ease of usage, especially in stressful situations. You can also throw a red dot/holo sights in there as a great addition.

I'd be right happy to
Somewhat true. Based on the data i have 10mm is more limited from longer barrels than 357. 10mm reaches its max at 13" barrel at nearly 1kft-lbs(buffalo bore 180gr, the most powerful one i have data on), while 357 magnum reaches the same energy from 9" for 125gr and same 13" for heavier loads(140-158gr) while continuing to grow at least 100ft-lbs from longer barrels for heavy loads and 250ft-lbs more for lighter ones.
What is this?
Yeah, though i was thinking more along the lines of "357 in a semi auto form factor", otherwise it's out of competition despite all its goodiness. I've already mentioned this itt, be it 357magnum rimless, improved 357sig or something else. In both examples we have either a bit larger or similar capacity.
Well, i like versatility more - you surely can cut down the gun for your required size but is this the only gun or its use you'll ever need? I'd sacrifice the bit of effectiveness for being able to use it in more ways and situations and it'd probably be at least good enough. In any case, we might just have different uses for the gun and so have different requirements, nothing wrong with it, just go with what you want and be objective about it. Nothing wrong with specialization as well it it is what you want.
Yeah, that's true but i don't see much use for bullpup guns with barrel length of less than 16"(and even then it's about the point where they start being equally good options). Just compare P90 that has 10" barrel and MP5 that has 9" and then look at P90 but with 16" barrel and pretend MP5 with it and you'll understand what i mean.
And pistol caliber cartridges are not high pressure, unlike rifle ones that both operate at higher pressures(357sig is prob the highest at 40kpsi and 5.56 goes 55-62k) but extend the high pressure over time with slow burning powders. Just look up 10mm Hipont carbine if you want to see yourself.
They have their gas port pretty far down the barrel, are overgassed, probably gas drainage impact performance, short action can cause problems(especially in ARs) and works less smoothly and most of all - they are FUCKING HUGE. Really, AK pistols are heavy AF as are AKs, while AR ones do have this stupid gas tube sticking out of the back. Interestingly, many AR platform pistol caliber conversions do put blowback action in there.

(cont)
Ok, i guess it's one of the things that are better to see once than told about 10 times. I'd prefer peep sights on the rear with that, though. Or just some red dot/holo/low powered scope with lots of drop adjustment for shooting at longer ranges. With that, 200m range would be pretty doable without such extreme measures.
Putting on a heat shroud on a full fun gun would be a good idea anyway due to heat obstructing sights picture, especially on open sights. Also, easily replaceable sights are a thing i'd like to see on any gun and i don't like that only pistols and tacticool ARs usually have it. It just adds so much options" fiber optics, tritium, peep, open, backup, foldable, whatever you want sights all without any custom gunsmithing.
Hearing safe and comfortable to shoot as well as not alerting everyone at good 700m around you of your presence is never a bad thing, especially in survival situation.
Again, your gas system would either bulky, heavy, unwieldy, throw off the balance and mount on the barrel(adding all the messing required like drilling it, needing special tools for gas block, gas tube, all fouling and heat in the receiver) or all of these at once it's not a good option. They would probably be a lot more ammo sensitive than blowback as well, and more expensive and less versatile too. It'd be a lot easier to get a new barrel for a blowback SMG when SHTF then if you're using gas system. you could also just make it open bolt if something breaks as well.
I'll go with it, as i'm not really interested in bullpup SMGs that much.

Also this. It's really something worth looking at. Make it out of better parts, give it a nice finish and mag release and you have a great and reliable weapon that's still cheaper than most equally nice options while still capable of getting shit done without much trouble and annoyance.

357 SIG vs 10MM submachine gun? How about 45 auto?

10mm Auto wins with a proper Norma spec or higher load, .357 Sig can win with expanding ammo if against an FBI Lite load. .45 ACP loses against both, but if you load it to .45 Super spec then it will easily beat both .357 SIG and Limpwrist rounds, while providing a tradeoff against full house 10mm.

357SIG does not go that great out of longer barrels but i'd still give out 850ft-lbs out of 14" barrel, while 10mm maxes out at 13" and nearly 1000ft-lbs. 10mm does have substantially more recoil and power(from shorter barrel as well) but both are pretty good options so i'd go with the one you have handgun in - if you can handle 10mm go for it, if you CC or want a specific pistol then SIG would be a better option. 45 is only interesting for going subsonic, otherwise it's just an outdated alternative to 9mm.

I keep telling you that 9x25mm Mauser Export is what you are looking for.
forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/9x25-mauser-ballistics-and-some-other-questions/13140/23

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True. That bit was a bit embellished but still if you look at the design of its parts, you'll be surprised at the simplicity.

Easily replaceable parts and maintenance is essential for subguns, especially the ones with higher RPM. The mag release on the Uru could be better with a "press" instead of "pull" release.

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And i keep telling you that it's not a good option, just like 357 mag rimless is not, only an example of solution that matches ballistic performance of my desired cartridge. It's also easier to remember, understand and describe 357MR than it is 9x25 that you have to search load data for.

The best option would be 10mm-length .357 sig

That's called 9mm Dillon.

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It's called 9x25mm Dillon, user. It's good, powerful but it's REALLY LOUD from handguns. Competition shooters wanted to use it with compensators but it was too effective and threw the guns down.

Good

Also, mr. Hungarian, i got that 9x25 Mauser is something you are fond of and i'm already aware of this cartridge so please, restrain your attempts to introduce this wonderful cartridge to other people that might be interested in it more than i am. Please accept this pic of a Hungarian SMG as a compensation for your inconvenience.

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Why would it be a bad option? I can't recall any actual arguments against the design of the cartridge itself.

Non-bottlenecked pistol cartridges were good enough for two world wars.

As i already have said, it's too long to fit into a semi-auto pistol grip. Its performance was also a bit lower than 357 magnum from longer barrels based on one of the posts from your link.

I wonder, would the trigger pull be consistent and comfortable in semi-auto? After all, it's literally simpler than what the M1898 Mauser has, and so it should be possible to fine-tune it.

Would small sections of picatinny rail work for that on pistols?

That's a Kucher K-1, I'm planning to disassemble one in the near future.

And as I have said, it's as long as a 7.62 Tokarev cartridge. Actually, it's nominally shorter with 0.2mm. And as I've also said, it fits into a semi-auto pistol grip. Don't tell me that I found a Russian who never heard of the TT pistol. I'm a proponent of this cartridge exactly because this is as long as its possible, and the only other way to increase case capacity is to increase the diameter. And that decreases the number of cartridges in the magazine, which is not a positive according to current trends.
At this point you should start considering dedicated carbine cartridges. You can make a superior one if you aren't held back by the inherent limitations of pistol cartridges.

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Yeah, i too mentioned that nicer finish, better mag release and parts would make it an amazing budget option that would rival ones costing several times as much.
They could but there's not much reason to. They are big, heavy, catch on things and any sights you'll be able to put on them would look autistic and have the same problems. Pistols already have that dovetail notch thing where the sights go. Revolvers should get this one too and it's a shame it's not standard yet.
And TT is by no means a small handgun and it uses single stack. There was double stack TT developed but i don't remember it seeing any use so eh. Double stack tokarev may be possible, but only because the cartridge is so thin.

There's actually Five seveN pistol that has even longer cartridges and even though it has quite a big grip it's fine for most for the same reason - it's thin so dimensions remain bearable. You probably could have double stack in your cartridge but i doubt that'd go well as 10mm double stack has had complaints about its size and i'd consider it the upper limit. You could improve the grip construction and bottlenecked cartridges might allow mags that are thinner in the front so you'd end up with a handgun that even though is not concealable would be comfortable to use and serve well. With an even longer cartridge - not so much. Unlike revolvers, we don't have much space for longer cartridges but can easily increase their capacity at the cost of slightly reducing magazine size which is not big of a problem because of easier reloads than a revolver and having advantages of bottlenecked cartridges.

Current trends use any excuse to stay with 9mm so i don't see how that'd help.

If i wanted to have a separate cartridge i'd go with an intermediate rifle one in 6-6.5mm caliber. The whole point of "full power pistol cartridge" is versatility that it brings, along with actual handgun performance. Especially when we already have the perfection to strive for in handguns.

You can source precision moly steel tubes anywhere on the planet. Lap the inner bore on a fixed rig (linear lapping should be ok), push the button, thread the barrel and call it a day.

That complain is absolutely stupid. It is only an issue for women and manlets, not a very relevant part of the market. The main issue was handling the round on a pistol with slightly-bigger-than-usual grips, the root cause of the problem was poor grip of the firearm. If you ever get the chance, compare Glock 17 grips to bigger grip glocks (the .45 or 10mm), the difference is not significant.

The chinks made double stack 7.62x25 clones of a SIG 226. Perfectly doable.

So basically the whole US military?:^)

Well, i'll believe your work on it and hope it's true. Still, i'd limit the length of the cartridge to 10mm as a standard "full size pistol cartridge", 9mm and lik as "medium length pistol cartridge" and stuff like .380 and smaller CC ones as "short length pistol cartridges". That'd aid universality of designs and conversions.

I've also just found out that Hues designed this Uru SMG with a single stack magazine. I'm slightly mad about this. So to add to the list of complaints: finish, quality of the parts, mag release, mag construction, maybe fire rate and weight. All probably fixable without serious alterations in the basic design to get sweet sweet makarov of SMGs in return. Hopefully.

Bullpup = magazine behind trigger

Every machine pistol ever invented is a "bullpup smg".

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Yeah, but that's not the kind of "bullpup smg" we were talking about.

Actually bullpup = chamber behind the trigger.

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The best pistol cartridge of the war was bottlenecked.

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Is there any list so I can beware of some weapons/whole companies maybe?

About the proprietary shit I meant.

I want to make the 10mm a 50kpsi cartridge before 25% proofing i.e make the dang thing unkillable and able to stuff +P+ loads down it's pipe all day, hence the wish for a gas system. 10mm as according to quickload is a fucking monster once you get pressures that high.
I meant just your average rifleman's stance of cheek shoulder and foregrip. Apologies for confusing you.
A subgun's advantage is that it can be more powerful than a pistol despite being around the same size and using the same cartridge. The idea here is to give a leg-wearable weapon that's out of the way most of the time, with the agility of a pistol and short range rifleman's accuracy, allowing for one man to go innawoods with one gun that is always with him, and not behind him when he's at his weakest. Traditionally, this has been held by the handgun and powerful large revolver. I want to see if we can improve on that. A small subgun in a powerful, short cartridge fills this role nicely.
True, but you can adjust for that with a gas screw.
But we're trying to develop here a SMG with balls, not one gimped by SAAMI regulations that barely put 10mm 4kpsi above 40 shit and weak.
Managed to get a better pic for you. Sorry for causing hassle.
None of this is really a problem with a muzzle mounted sight, I could easily fab a new sight for my revolver raifu if I wanted but I really don't, she shoots like a dream
Threaded barrel it is, then.
None of this is a problem in a CNC lathe for manufacturing, even in a manual machine only setting you can get away with simply mounting the barrel in an indexing head and making an extra thicc bushing for both the barrel and gas tube ala the 1911 that can be cross-pinned to the upper chassis for strength.

I think we're slowly closing on a formal design recommendation, I'd say interchangeable barrels might be in order. Maybe have the Zig Forumsube woodsman (long) and the Zig Forumsube kebab remover (short), both with threaded barrels. I might try and draw it up depending on how the next few days go.

Pig disgustingly slow round that is only any good when it's pressure is upped to 40kpsi- there aren't many guns that can do that.

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