Eastern front

Jack Reed
Jack Reed

Why couldn't they destroy them in 41? I assume a myriad of reasons, such as weather, not stopping allied supplies coming in. They had such great momentum.

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Easton Fisher
Easton Fisher

No

Mason Hill
Mason Hill

Yes, no.

David White
David White

This is the third WWII what-if thread and the second on Barbarossa.

Easton Johnson
Easton Johnson

The further you penetrate into another nation the worse your supply lines are particularly if you're also handling partisans and are attacking in the south as well. It's questionable whether or not taking Moscow would have really helped anyway, at the end of the day it's just another city and it didn't exactly do Napoleon any good.

James Jenkins
James Jenkins

The main reasons I can think of are:
Logistical issues. Russia has a completely unique railroad gauge, 5', or 1.520m, which as opposed to Standard gauge, about 4'8.5", or 1.435m wide. Combine this with Russia's scorched earth tactics, and extremely poor road systems, and the supply lines will be inevitably overextended.
Military issues. One of the major failures, in my opinion anyways, was Halder's idea that, once Moscow was captured, the Soviet Union would just fall apart and collapse. This is completely wrong, in my view. The Soviet Union's capital would simply have moved across the Urals, and continued its fight from there, unless Soviet morale broke with Moscow's taking, which I would see as pretty unlikely. In addition, many of the Wehrmacht generals were tactically and operationally excellent, but all too often strategically insufficient. Hitler was focused on strategic matters, which is what caused conflict between him and the Generalstab over how to fight the war, which itself leads to drooling retards saying 'muh listen to generals' and other such nonsense, when that was exactly what Hitler did prior to Barbarossa.
Lend-Lease aid was actually attacked, especially in the Battle of the Barents Sea. But you also have to consider the Siberian ports. Even with the threat of Japanese subs or surface ships raiding American convoys there, most of the Jap fleets were focused towards the South. So the American convoys were relatively safe, and able to keep the Soviets supplied.
Weather, of course, is the big one. The Wehrmacht was extremely confident in its ability to fuck up the Soviets, and they had good reason to believe so, considering they defeated the technologically and numerically superior French, whom the Second Reich were never able to defeat in 4 years, in a month and a half; and saw how the Finns BTFO the Soviets with a bunch of under-supplied militia and outdated equipment. However, the Soviets were not that easy to defeat, and Hitler's refusal to create winter equipment for his troops would greatly hinder their progress.

Josiah Carter
Josiah Carter

Moscow in 1941 was the central rail hub for all of European Russia, in addition to being the political capital which it was not in 1812. It wouldn't necessarily have been enough to win the war but the constant comparisons that get made to Napoleon's invasion are retarded.

Benjamin Fisher
Benjamin Fisher

Hitler trusted too many people and the eternal jew forced the American people to pay billions for a lend-lease. Also Italians were shit and the japs were retarded.

James Brooks
James Brooks

You forgot how Germany was totally unprepared for a total war of attrition. Their whole strategy was based on the idea that they will be able to avoid them, and they didn't even dare to consider that they might have to prepare for one. So they completely wasted their limited resources and manpower. I don't only mean how equipment was constructed, but how they had to make at least two competing organizations with their own unique insignia and uniforms for every minor thing. Really, just read about Speer, especially about the reconstruction works of Berlin in the middle of the war.

Michael Parker
Michael Parker

You forgot how Germany was totally unprepared for a total war of attrition.
That's true, but as you yourself say,
Their whole strategy was based on the idea that they will be able to avoid them
And that is important, because that was the main weakness of Germany. Ironic, in that the one nation who wanted to avoid attrition, got it anyways, twice. But I definitely understand why this was their doctrine.
I don't only mean how equipment was constructed, but how they had to make at least two competing organizations with their own unique insignia and uniforms for every minor thing
That's definitely an incredibly inefficient thing to do, but I'd always thought that that was more or less part of Hitler's political intriguing, as per the classic rules of power. I would definitely agree that they should've had singular organizations for singular things.
Really, just read about Speer, especially about the reconstruction works of Berlin in the middle of the war.
I've read a ton about Speer, since I'm a bit of a total war autist, but thanks for the recommendations anyways, Magyarbro.

Jacob Ross
Jacob Ross

I'd always thought that that was more or less part of Hitler's political intriguing, as per the classic rules of power
No, it's more about inherent German autism that overcomplicates everything to the point of uselessness.
thanks for the recommendations anyways
I've actually meant the last part as a general recommendation for OP and all the other faggots who don't know basic stuff about ww2.

Sebastian Stewart
Sebastian Stewart

No, it's more about inherent German autism that overcomplicates everything to the point of uselessness.
That's true lol.
I've actually meant the last part as a general recommendation for OP and all the other faggots who don't know basic stuff about ww2
Ah, okay. Forgive my autisme Français, then.

William Hughes
William Hughes

Germany was totally unprepared for a total war of attrition
Their whole strategy was based on the idea that they will be able to avoid them
They certainly had the ability to the have 1944 production levels at the start, yet didn't go for full war economy.

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Matthew Clark
Matthew Clark

Fucked by the weather.

It takes time to build factories.

Jonathan Williams
Jonathan Williams

THIS is how you win world war 2

Thomas Rodriguez
Thomas Rodriguez

japan doesn't attack pearl harbor
<USA doesn't have an excuse to go to war
Genius

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Brody Harris
Brody Harris

Sacredieu, this video is a war crime unto itself.

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Sebastian Lopez
Sebastian Lopez

Speaking of which, deja vu. I'd seen this before in my dreams.

Justin Gomez
Justin Gomez

Moscow surrenders in a single month
Just don't enter Stalingrad!
A work of genius.

Angel Ross
Angel Ross

All Germany needed to win was Japanese inventing a single tank worth a damn, but the slimy yellow bastards never figured out the purpose of a mechanized division until America slapped them upside the head and raped sense into them. They're kind of like Italy in that sense.

Asher Jenkins
Asher Jenkins

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Levi Wood
Levi Wood

The lack of NCOs and firepower in the Italians is really fucking telling.
No wonder why the Shitviets were shit after Stalin gulag'd the fucking officer corps

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Josiah Howard
Josiah Howard

1. Siege battles, the 41 campaign was gained positively due to the open terrain which facilitates the more mobile german army, siege battles slow thing down.
2. Lack of preparation, logistics for the german.
3. Lack of coordination with the japs and italian.

In short, per Xi Ma Guide of win & Sun Tzu, avoid siege battle, avoid war where you don't have allies support.

Anthony Diaz
Anthony Diaz

All the US lend lease

Jonathan Gonzalez
Jonathan Gonzalez

Didn't really start kicking in until '42. UK lend lease started arriving in '41, though.

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Brody Watson
Brody Watson

Rail hub is the only thing it was good for, but there were other rail hubs too. Additionally, all the important infrastructure have been moved east halfway across the country, capture of Moscow would've accomplished nothing.
They only had momentum at the beginning of war, right at the time when Soviet military consisted of inexperienced soldiers and commanders because all the experienced ones were executed. By 1942 things got on track and by 1943 they got weapon upgrades to bring them on the level, from that point on Germany couldn't do shit against Soviet army.

Aaron Sullivan
Aaron Sullivan

Lend-lease helped chiefly with food, at times constituting up to 50% military rations. Fuel constituted about 20% that of Soviet supply and military equipment was less than 5% of total force. I have no info regarding the trucks but the word is that they were rare but significantly better quality than soviet-built trucks, so I guesstimate it's 15-25% of Soviet truck fleet.

Isaiah Brown
Isaiah Brown

Germany captures Azerbaijani oilfields, buttdevastating an already devastated Soviet Union
Japan attacks Pearl Harbor shortly afterwards???
burgers want to invade Normandy instead of the far weaker Spain
Germans don't have Me 262 interceptors in widespread service by 1944
they drop a nuke on a beleaguered Stalingrad of all places???????
this is somehow enough to end the war

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Wyatt Ward
Wyatt Ward

58% of the USSR's high octane aviation fuel
33% of their motor vehicles
53% of expended ordnance (artillery shells, mines, assorted explosives)
30% of military aircraft
93% of railway equipment (locomotives, freight cars, wide gauge rails, etc.)
50–80% of rolled steel, cable, lead, and aluminium
43% of garage facilities (building materials & blueprints)
12% of tanks and SPGs
50% of TNT (1942 onward)

Burgers kept you alive.

Luis Murphy
Luis Murphy

US shipped overseas more material than USSR produced domestically
<US used USSR as a proxy in WW2

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Ryan Jenkins
Ryan Jenkins

The trucks, jeeps and bren/universal carriers were much more important than their mere % of the total which was pretty significant anyway would indicate since they were able to carry much more than the Soviet equivalents and functioned much more reliably as well. Similarly the combat aircraft in the early years were often superior to their soviet equivalents and came with pilots and mechanics who both flew combat missions and much more importantly provided training to their soviet counterparts.
The railway connection matters though it's possible for the Soviets to have made do without it, the political capital less so since it can be quite easily moved and essential operations were already in less threatened areas. Offset against the huge cost the Germans would have had to expend to take Moscow it would have been a net loss.

Or in short: don't fight a land war in Asia.

Nathaniel Morris
Nathaniel Morris

Or in short: don't fight a land war in Asia.
And yes, I'm aware the Germans only intended to take European Russia, but the same geography and downsides apply.

Anthony Miller
Anthony Miller

Similarly the combat aircraft in the early years were often superior to their soviet equivalents and came with pilots and mechanics who both flew combat missions and much more importantly provided training to their soviet counterparts.
early years
implying

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Kevin Scott
Kevin Scott

It never stops

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Noah Martin
Noah Martin

You will never go back in time and provide Hitler and his generals tons of archives of everything that happened in WWII
You will never help Hitler win the war and be awarded the title of honorary Aryan Ubermensch
You will just waste your days on a mongolian drawing board talking about the 'what ifs'

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Liam Kelly
Liam Kelly

yfw that one camping faggot keeps bragging about his ebin KD even though he does absolute jack shit when it comes to playing the objective

Adam Turner
Adam Turner

ywn send an encrypted telegram to the 大日本帝國 containing coordinates to Manchurian oilfields
ywn convince Göring to abandon the Sturzkampfmeme on larger aircraft and unfuck the He-177 in the process
ywn also convince him remove the Bf 110 from daylight fighter duty prior to the BoB
ywn convince Hitler to delay the invasion of Soviet Russia at least until the capture of the Suez
ywn convince the Italians to capture Malta ASAP
ywn deliver a list containing the names, photographs and addresses of every allied spy in history to Wehrmacht intelligence
ywn see proximity fuzed HE shells loaded into Flak 36 batteries
ywn avoid the Italian invasion of Greece
ywn see radar-guided anti-air V2 rockets
ywn see the Horten brothers make the stealth meme real during the second battle of Britain
ywn see the British kicked out of the mediterranean
ywn see german tank blueprints shipped to the Japanese via the Indian Ocean
ywn see Tiger Is with sloped reactive armor packages assraping the Soviets in early 1942
ywn see the Wehrmacht capturing Baku
ywn see the Nips open a second front against the Soviet Union in the far east
ywn see Commies crash with no survivors
ywn see the US invading neutral Spain, turning the entire country's populace into staunch supporters of fascism
ywn see a nuclear Operation Seelöwe forcing the Anglo into surrender
ywn retire early to a comfy farm in eastern Prussia and live out the rest of your days drawing anti-semitic mongolian caricatures inbetween tending to your crops
ywn hang out and shitpost about ancient aliens with Wernher von Braun
ywn watch as your children board Haunebu airliners headed towards the first permament human settlement on the Moon

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Sebastian Moore
Sebastian Moore

*grandchildren

Justin Peterson
Justin Peterson

Continuing Soviet incompetence in the air doesn't invalidate my statement user.
Radical changes in history are not a good idea even if you make them with the best of intentions. There's no telling what might happen long-term. You'd also probably be killed in the inevitable post-Hitler power struggle/civil war for being too much of a threat.

Cooper Hernandez
Cooper Hernandez

>implying my life is more important than the very survival of the Aryan race
We had a good run as a nation, even IF uncle Adie wanted us all dead due to irrational nordicist WE WUZ the only desirable genetic trait 400 years of Ottoman dysgenics left us with is our insatiable need for kebab removal, a trait atavistic and redundant if the 1000 years' Reich was to be achieved. Would be arguably better if we went out with a boom taking with us as many muds and roaches as we could than surviving to the end times as a purposeless fragment of what we once were in a world surrounded by our betters out of a mixture of pity and ages past gratitude.

Landon Morales
Landon Morales

All the major political and military leaders where already evacuated from Moscow at that point and it would've been a nightmare to fight in.

Robert Sanders
Robert Sanders

I hate how correct your post was. I really, really, really want a war with Turkey

John Evans
John Evans

ywn see the Nips open a second front against the Soviet Union in the far east
They tried that in 1939 and failed.

Kayden Hughes
Kayden Hughes

ywn convince Hitler to delay the invasion of Soviet Russia at least until the capture of the Suez
Up until the day the Soviets roll in themselves and add 18 new Soviet republics to the Union and rename Berlin into Karl-Marx-Stadt or whatever.

William Bennett
William Bennett

You mean they didn't do that in history already?

Why do you think the Soviet only stopped at Berlin when they crushed Germany?

Anthony Evans
Anthony Evans

Simple answer? The Germans were inferior on genetic, psychological, social and cultural levels.

Germany at the time had similar population, far greater technology, far greater access to resources. The lendlease Russia got did happen,but it arrived in dribs and drabs and so it couldn't be the reason why the German assault broke suddenly. Compare it to Germany which had the industrial power of the entire continent of Europe, more than the allies at one time.

The hordes, tsars and commissars had killed every Russian who was incapable of following orders, this made it impossible to cause a rout. Germany had fairly independent minded people who (although united in nationalism) were still fairly individualistic, and could be caused to rout.
The continental cold had basically killed every Russian that would let depression get the best of him, so their morale was impossible to break. German morale could and did break if they were surrounded, or if they ran out of ammo even. They surrendered in droves while Russians who had no ammo simply fixed bayonets.
Their society was inured to war and went to total war status almost immediately, they split up their population into those who could fight, those who could work in factories, and those who were to be used to clear minefields and run into enemy barbed wires to make bridges for the others.
Also while they are natively aggressive, their culture does not go far into being the first to strike a blow. They generally suck at that. But if you try to take something that belongs to them, or back them into a corner, they're very good at getting out of that. I suspect it's partially survival training from medieval times, after all it is a good survival strategy to pay the ridiculous taxes of the tsar or the commie, but if they come to fuck your wife you better kill them or die trying. That kind of thing is a good group survival strategy.
dailycaller.com/2016/02/04/refugees-go-clubbing-in-russia-harass-girls-wake-up-in-hospital-the-next-morning/

Wyatt Nguyen
Wyatt Nguyen

and rename Berlin into Karl-Marx-Stadt or whatever.
You have Karl Marx strasse in berlin till this day so what difference would it make?

Ryan Brown
Ryan Brown

Soon. The roach running that country is going to ask too much from the US in what it can gain by threatening the bosphorus. A day will come when the NATO shall liberate Constantinople

Nathan Rivera
Nathan Rivera

A day will come when the NATO shall liberate Constantinople
That might be true. My question is: for who?

Henry Myers
Henry Myers

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Jonathan Morris
Jonathan Morris

1. Lack of resources
2. Lack of industrial capacity
3. Lack of manpower
4. allied lend-lease

/thread

Robert Peterson
Robert Peterson

5) Lack of helping their own allies
Spain darling would you please join the war?
<Sure, you going to license us some equipment so we can get our war economy going?
lel no, fight with what you got!
<Fuck off

Josiah Davis
Josiah Davis

More like
Spain-chan, we helped you during the war against Soviet and British proxies.
<Yeah, you and Italy were great, Hitler-sama! We're really lucky to have such great allies as you!
So, can you help us during our war against the Soviets and British, now that we need you?
<Gib monee 4 ekonome plox hue hue
No, I don't have anything to spare. Please help me with the war.
<Yeah, nah. Get fucked, cunt. I just butchered the reds, blacks and other assorted traitors, I don't want to lose the country to them.
Honestly, Franco did nothing wrong. Officially joining the war on either side would've been suicide.

Luke Russell
Luke Russell

We did send help but we really were in bad shape. Point Germany needed to go the equivalent of `This is how to make Panzer IV and BF109, *go make it! ' to their allies and they would have been in better shape even if it meant only a 100 more tanks that is a 100 more tanks that are good they don't have to make

Nathaniel Phillips
Nathaniel Phillips

all of the Balkans unite under the Byzantine banner to defeat T*rks
It'll never happen but still.
They did license out aero engines to Sh*talians which proceeded to make some really nice planes afterwards, not that it helped much when Germany should've licensed radio, radar and leadership tech to them instead.

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Angel Baker
Angel Baker

Moscow
unimportant. Better question would be Leningrad, which would have allowed the combining with Finnish and german lines and was already under siege.

Really, though, Germany should have pressured (or even attacked) Turkey more and opened the caucasus front there, so that they could grab the oilfields in Baku. The whole push towards Causcasus through all of ukraine and southern Russia was a logistical nightmare on first sight.

Josiah Wilson
Josiah Wilson

Moscow is where the rails connect.

Having Moscow would at least help the declining germ's logistic.

Or any city at all. By Moscow and Stalingrad, it's clear the germs can't into siege warfare.

Jack James
Jack James

Leon De Grelle said that harsh winter decreased speed of attack and after that Soviets launched a counter-attack.

David Irving also said that Hitler had plan to connect two forces behind Moscow and encircle it but he got sick and the generals rehashed the plan and adopted more conservative one which was worse than the Hitler's plan.

Ethan Russell
Ethan Russell

But Franco's assistance in the war would've helped things tremendously for the Germans, in my view. Denial of resources to the Allies, a chance to besiege and capture Gibraltar, more (mostly experienced) soldiers for the Axis cause, and a greater control of the Med.

Thomas Davis
Thomas Davis

Any help and more competent allies would increase the germ's chance.

The best would be if the war in Pacific didn't fucking happen and Japan provide 100% support against the USSR and support Chiang Kai-shek in destroying Mao.

Noah Myers
Noah Myers

They should have built an army of SS robots with Jew-seeking missiles

Ian Thomas
Ian Thomas

The best would be if the war in Pacific didn't fucking happen
That was on (((Roosevelt))), for provoking the Japs into attacking Pearl Harbor.
Japan provide 100% support against the USSR and support Chiang Kai-shek in destroying Mao.
The Japs were willing to end the war with Chiang in exchange for Japanese suzerainty over the Chinks, which was a damn good deal in hindsight. But the Chinks manufactured the (((Rape of Nanjing))) against the Japanese, and so the war continued needlessly, when Chinks and Japs could have fought together to defeat the Commies.

Grayson Bennett
Grayson Bennett

That was on (((Roosevelt))), for provoking the Japs into attacking Pearl Harbor.
War on Pacific happened before Pearl Harbor, the attack on RoC shouldn't have happened.
The Japs were willing to end the war with Chiang in exchange for Japanese suzerainty over the Chinks, which was a damn good deal in hindsight.
Well, here's the thing, the japs shouldn't have attacked the chinks at all.
They should team up with the chinks to remove Mao and attack the USSR to support Germany.

Italy too should drop their fucking Ethopia conquest and provide troop support for Barbarossa.

Samuel Davis
Samuel Davis

War on Pacific happened before Pearl Harbor
The War in the Pacific began with Pearl Harbor. What you are referring to, is the War in China.
Well, here's the thing, the japs shouldn't have attacked the chinks at all.
The Chinese had to be punished for attacking Japanese civilians, and for being yellow niggers.

John Murphy
John Murphy

The War in the Pacific began with Pearl Harbor. What you are referring to, is the War in China.
OK, which was unnecessary.
The Chinese had to be punished for attacking Japanese civilians, and for being yellow niggers.
So happy losing WW2.

You can't win unless you team up with lesser evil to beat greater evils, which are communists.

Hunter Nguyen
Hunter Nguyen

You can't win unless you team up with lesser evil to beat greater evils, which are communists.
t. user whose country allied with the greater evil

Aaron Rogers
Aaron Rogers

I'm a vietnamese, but my ancestors were allied with the US.

Joseph Phillips
Joseph Phillips

Is that you, Spergook?

Lincoln Rivera
Lincoln Rivera

Yep, that's right.

Josiah Johnson
Josiah Johnson

Spanish civil war ended in 1939. Had Franco went ot war, he'd need to actually explain why the fuck he'd doing it to his own populace, who had enough war to last them a lifetime by them. So Franco asked for Gibraltar, French Morocco and parts of Algeria and some of the French colonies lower in Africa, plus supplies that'd solve the shortages left in the wake of the war. Hitler offered essentially nothing since he wanted to stay on Vichy's good side, so that was that. Franco had literally nothing to gain from the war, and while he certainly sympathised and was grateful to Germany, he wasn't going to bet the position he just fought a bloody war for (along with his life) because of it.

Hitler should have simply agreed to hand over the French colonies, as even if Spain proved to be an absolutely useless ally, being able to capture Gibraltar would alone outweight any possible negatives, as the Mediterranean would thus effectively belong to Italy alone – you can't just route everything through Suez because it's so fucking far and thus takes so long, and leaves you open to enemy subs the whole time.

Of course, hindsight's a bitch. Hitler expected an end to the war soon after French surrender, so trying to be on good terms with Vichy made perfect sense.

Grayson Watson
Grayson Watson

The burger strelok is correct
Remember how Stalin transfered all those siberian divisions after the non agression pact? If they were to strike north and not give two fucks of how bad the IJA was going to get it's asses kicked, you bet the Stalin would not hesitate to let go of Siberia to defend European Russia.
Bomb the transib railroad and just laugh.

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