Hey Zig Forums, I am about to read through the Bible from cover to cover and am currently in the Gospel according to Mark. In Mark 5 there is the story about Jesus casting demons into 2000 pigs that drown themselves in the river.
My problem is that nowhere in the OT are demons mentioned, no metaphysical manifestation of evil or anything in that kind. How are demons to be interpreted? Are bad/evil spirits mental illnesses? And if so, why would Jesus cast such into pigs to drown them?
It is not the miraculous work that is unbelievable, but the borderline-contradictory to the OT. The closest mentioning of a demon in the OT I can think of are "Sons of Belial", which are plain evil men. I don't associate Satan with inherent evil, because he takes the role of the accuser in the OT, and the leader role of the deceivers, slanderers and liars, hence don't take his mentioning in a literal, but more in a metaphorical sense.
Deut 32:17 Psa 106:37 Lev 17:7, Isa 13:21, 2 Cor 11:15
Jordan Wright
Sometimes demons or related terms ARE used as a metaphore, like mammon is used as metaphore for human greed in the Gospel, but that doesnt mean that it always s metaphore. Fallen angels do exist and Bible is pretty straight about it. As for "sons of belial" and "sons of" in general, when not used regarding God's relationship to humans (Who actually CREATED us and plus due to Jesus becoming human we are sort of his adopted children) or in context of biological parents, it takes meaning of a mentor, or something similar. BTW there are demons mentioned in the old testament. Hebrew word for them is "Shedim".
Camden Kelly
This. Also the book of Tobit has such demonic oppression as a central point.
Something to perhaps remember is that before this demons dealt with men alone, who often actually worshipped them as gods. Don't you think it therefore fits that they start to unveil themselves and freak out when the Godman Himself appears before them?
You should associate him with inherent evil, because this is what he is. His role as accuser doesn't lessen or contradict his own evil. The problem with your thinking too is that if it's just a metaphor then so too is salvation, and thus our salvation is vain.
Ryder Evans
What exactly is so good about him being an accuser? Both times we see him do it in scripture Satan hatefully slanders men who God held in high regard even when it would provoke God's anger
Colton Butler
1 Samuel 16, for example, has Saul being possessed/oppressed by an evil spirit of the Lord, after he was rejected. Incidentally, the same chapter also has David casting out the evil spirit, when he plays the harp.
Ryder Jackson
Imagen being so pissed off at God and Humans that one would constantly try to ruin everything nice just to show midfinger to us. Maybe a minor detail, but I feel intense disgust when I remember how pathetic demons are.
Jesus himself said As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
So then it makes sense that his presence alone would reveal many things that can normally keep hidden in life.
Liam Ortiz
You're kidding yourself if you think the ancient Hebrews didn't believe in demons. Evil spirits are one of the basic primitive beliefs of all humanity, and in Semitic religions that belief takes the form of fallen angels. The idea of demons was not introduced by Christians.
Angel Diaz
the Abrahamic idea is that the demons are not merely evil beings, but fallen-from-the-light evil beings, man becomes like the demons when we turn away from God. Moreover, that all other idols are either fake or demons.
What demon do you worship user? Jupiter? Thoth?
Juan Mitchell
What the figgity-fugg?? All he said was that they were unclean spirits were clearly seen as real.
I worship God and Jesus Christ is my Lord, thanks.
The argument that demons are a Christian innovation and that there were no such figures in ancient Hebraism is already patently absurd just from a historical and anthropological perspective without even considering what the Bible says on the matter. Disbelief in the existence of demons is a modernist innovation, probably dating to the 17th century.
Andrew Hall
see >>/651529/
Colton Gonzalez
fug, it's been a while since i linked a post manually.
Adam Perry
user if you want to talk theology please don't use a term that's for the purpose of bringing Jews and Muslims into the tent. Neither of those believe in demons as fallen angels in the way Christians do, Jewish theology on the matter is confused and wrapped up in their faulty mysticism and for Muslims demons are animistic spirits.
Robert Moore
They asked for that, actually. He just gave them their wish. They did this for effect. Hello, Mr Bernstein. Or is it Mr Liberal-Episcopalian?
Genesis 3:1-7 1 Samuel 16:14 1 Kings 22:20-22
But the truth is, just like hell, we know almost everything we know about demons from Christ Himself.
I admit that I misread your post, but when you use "Abrahamic" and "Semitic", I confused your post immediately with /fringe/ and Zig Forums looney-toons.
Djinn are retarded fan-fiction, there isn't much to talk about.
Jacob Jenkins
Nope.
Good, keep it up and keep reading the Bible with the force and power of the Holy Spirit.
Your entire OP is about how you can't find explicit reference to literal demons in the Old Testament.
I never used the word "Abrahamic," but I did use the word "Semitic." Egyptians and Babylonians had demons, too. Demons were certainly part of the ancient Hebrews' religion, whether the Old Testament mentions them or not. Demons were increasingly downplayed by Pharisaism and barely appear in the Talmud, and many so-called Jews began to reject the existence of demons. That's probably where the modernist rejection of their existence ultimately comes from, from demon-possessed Pharisees.
They're mentioned all the time in Psalms, the church fathers usually considered the "enemies" in the psalms to be demons.
Ryan Cruz
...
Jordan Richardson
Demons are fallen angels. They have layed the plan for themselves out and made the perfect, and therefore irredeemable decision to not obey. Not they run wild and try to damn as many souls to hell as they can, because jealousy and so on. So no, they are not meant metaphorical or are somehow codewords for mental illlness. They can well cause mental illness if left unchecked, or reinforce mental illness, however.
Levi Perry
I think you are confused, fallen angels are demons but not all demons are fallen angels, there is extremely lesser and lesser spirits that are indeed demons.
Jaxson Garcia
All purely spiritual beings are angels. And if you'll start about nephilim meme, I will punch you.
user you need to post support for a whopper like that.
Jayden Cox
Angels are the lowest order of purely spiritual beings that God created. We use the word "angels" as a handle for all the higher orders of purely spiritual creatures, though, such as thrones and seraphim, simply because we only really have contact with the lower order, angels proper. There is a huge variety of "power levels" even among angels alone. There are no lower orders of purely spiritual beings below angels. All demons are fallen angels in the wider sense of the term "angels," meaning that a demon can be a fallen angel proper or a fallen cherub or a fallen seraph. God did not create other kinds of pure spirits, and He created no spirit evil in itself. There are many, many demons less powerful than Satan, but they were still angelic in their origin. Satan was from among the higher orders of angels, either cherubim or seraphim. There were apparently demons more powerful than Satan, but Satan was the first who fell, and any more powerful ones God has kept locked up since their fall. Anyway, "angels" actually properly refers to the weakest type of pure spirit, but we use it to refer to all pure spirits out of convenience, and all demons are fallen angels in this second sense.
