What did go wrong to the point of japan closing itself to the world? Were Ieyasu and Hideyoshi (and the other shoguns) possessed?
How responsible were the dutch and the english for the anti-catholicism there?
Was the sentiment of japanese culture being replaced by that of the west inevitable? Would it have been possible for the missionaries to preach christianity without carrying western tradition?
How could the orthodox have changed that timeline?
In the end it seems, again, the reform might have been the worst thing that happened in the world. For it also had triggered the english and the dutch to spread anti-catholic sentiment. As for christianity before the missions, one can only wonder the impact of nestorianism there.
They feared that they would get colonized and spanish were quite brutal, unlike earlier portuguese Dutch helped the shogun to surpass catholic revolt. Verily, a (((merchant))) nation It would perhaps have better chance in terms that they could establish autocephalous church, thus eliminating fear of colonization or foreign infulenc as well as muh traditions part. But Orthodox were landlocked while Catholics and Protestants had access to world oceans, so that was practically impossible, sadly.
William Fisher
The Assyrian Church would have been perfect for the region and there is some speculation on whether they had a church there at some time.
Bentley Sanders
Do you think that Spanish colonization would have made things better?
Sebastian Walker
I'm not sure I'd go as far as "possessed" but they did not like foreign influence, especially when it brought something as strange as Christianity to them. A lot of Japanese at that time (and even many today) saw Buddhism as an intolerable foreign import, the same way a lot of European nationalists view Christianity itself (i.e. a non-native, destructive import which is hostile to their folkways). It was for the same reason that the Japanese later on in the Meiji era actually made Western powers engage them on their own terms with the Equality Treaties rather than being treated like China and India.
The fact that it got to the point that only the Dutch were able to stick around in Japan during the Sakoku era (albeit tenuously in Dejima which because a foreign port town, the only place westerners could visit) is pretty telling. They didn't cause it, but they clearly had no fellow feeling with Papists and didn't mind sending countless Japanese souls to Hell on principle if it meant they could make money. Also en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rangaku
This is a kind of loaded question since it assumes Christianity is something exclusive to the West when in fact it is universal. Many of the mores and customs of Japan (homosexuality, suicide-culture, pornography, lewd theatrics, paganism etc.) would have had to change, not because they are "Oriental" but because they are sinful and degrading. Christianity itself has a really remarkable knack for making other cultures conform to it without losing uniqueness though. It's only when you try to change the faith to fit the world you see the decay start to creep in. I think the most "Western" thing about it would be the use of Latin, which might be a problem for Japanese speakers, to the point that they may have been given an indult to say mass in their own language. That said, under Orthodoxy this might not have been an issue.
Probably not, since at the time this was all going on arguably the most powerful Orthodox nation, Russia, was still making its way across Sibera, and was nowhere near the Pacific until the end of the 17th Century.
This took a really big hold on China for quite a few centuries, and in other places along the Silk Road. It wasn't as successful as Islam was in these places, but in China they established whole sees and I think in the Tang dynasty a lot of courtiers (possibly some emperors too) were Nestorians.
Michael Moore
Yes, the daimyos' dislike for buddhism because of the ikko-ikki acted in favor of christianity in the beginning.
Christianity is universal, indeed, but the Latin Church might have been seen as way too imbued with western tradition for the shogunate.
Regarding the latin usage, I was reading the preface of Susaku's Endo Silence and in it there are some quotes by C. R. Boxer such as:
"This ordeal was witnessed by 150,000 people, according to some writers, or 30,000 according to other and in all probability more reliable chroniclers. When the faggots were kindled, the martyrs said sayonara (farewell) to the onlookers who then began to intone the Magnificat, followed by the psalms Laudate pueri Dominum and Laudate Dominum omnes gente, while the Japanese judges sat on one side ‘in affected majesty and gravity, as in their favorite posture’. Since it had rained heavily the night before, the faggots were wet and the wood burnt slowly; but as long as the martyrdom lasted, the spectators continued to sing hymns and canticles. When death put an end to the victims’ suffering, the crowd intoned the Te Deum Laudamus."
Isaac Evans
I'm not being snide but I'm just taking "western" to mean "not Japanese" here. The shogunate probably wouldn't have guessed at the ability of Christianity to merge with a local culture. It's understandable. Another part of the problem was Anglo-Dutch reinforcement that you didn't "need" to evangelise, just do business, which probably only deepened the impression that Christianity was "western" and Shint/Buddhism were "eastern" faiths which could co-exist.
Interesting quotes, thank you. I suppose anyone can learn Latin, I just assumed that it might be more difficult for a Japanese speaker to pick up on. Thinking about it, it would probably be easier to pronounce (and properly) than English.
I think it's possible they would have made it worse.
James Murphy
True, but at least the Spanish could’ve made it happen. Either way, the church doesn’t need to be western in a cultural sense, and in fact could’ve intertwined with Jap culture to make it more appealing for them (cultural sense, not spiritual). But as you said, those merchants ruined everything for us. Since different rites exist within the church, you think there can be a Japanese rite so it can be more favorable for them?
David Parker
One of the things that bothered the Japanese about Christianity was the idea that their ancestors were in hell.
At least the Spanish colonization would have prevented anime from existing.
Lincoln Smith
Nagasaki was the center of Catholicism in Japan, and not on the original list of targets drawn up by the military. But I'm sure that a Freemason president deciding to target it was just a coincidence.
Cooper Gutierrez
To understand it in a modern context think of it as being a rejection of globalism and multiculturalism but imagine instead of just immigrants there was also literal conquest of territory. Now picture the beliefs of these immigrants gaining positions of power in society among local people.
They fanned the flames but the fire was already started.
They could not have made a difference bar some semi miracle like Spain going Orthodox or the Grand Duchy of Moscovy crushing the Spanish Empire.
Why do you think this is the worst thing that happened in the world?
Isaac Powell
That is the hard to swallow thing for Christian Asians all around because family ties are stronger here, much stronger than the west even in the past. I was told that for our faith in God can save them because the Lord sometimes help others who believe not for the sake of their friends and family who believe in Him. Then I was told the story of the cripple and his 4 friends who carried him through the roof of the house for Jesus to heal him. To carry a sick man on a bed through the roof is a very hard task.
And that is why our faith has to be strong first in order to carry others through ours. That is why we pray for others so their may be given and gift of faith and that their faith may not falter.
Gavin Turner
Actually that was Tokyo by that time period, Nagasaki was just where it was older due to that being where they were originally allowed to work and trade there (which was required because they had trouble getting direct funding from Europe so instead were granted trading privileges)
Of the initial targets, which were not exhaustive. Remember the nuke that hit Nagasaki was destined for Kokura which was only abandoned by the individual pilots in the air when bad weather and smog made it impossible to carry out the mission safely.
You mean a freemason president who left the Catholics of Italy/Rome, Austria and Germany virtually untouched whilst letting the Soviets having the Protestant region of Germany?
Colton Barnes
There is surprisingly many Churches in Japan. My favorite one was in Kyoto, it had a massive statue of Jesus welcoming people inside with open arms. I think there is room for Christianity in Japan nowadays, people there really lack meaning, and Buddhism or Shinto is not providing them that. Even though there are temples and shrines everywhere, and their have all these religious traditions, no one really believes in it, they just keep it for the tradition. People I talked to were really open minded and interested in Christianity.
Kayden Scott
The protestant reform led to the French Revolution and made the Enlightenment possible. The current world-understanding is the result of the reform.
Individualism, secularism, republicanism, materialism etc are all sprouts of the reform.
Ryder Nguyen
Oh you mean the Protestant Reformation, the way your OP is set up it makes it seem as though you Japanese isolation reforms were the worst thing.
Did it though? Seems like a rather shaky foundation and something that would make more sense if the French Revolution happened in a Protestant country/region instead of a Catholic Country which had violently removed and expelled Protestants.
Going by your logic I could say Catholicism is the worst thing to happen to the world as without it there would have been no Protestant Reformation.
Wyatt Ramirez
Neither we, nor Catholics state that someone is in hell or not. What we state however, is if someone is in heaven or not (the whole point of Sainthood)
I know that its a shitpost, but this is stupid Anime is a medium, and it can be both good and bad But even the worst of anime (excluding pornography of course) are lot more wholesome than modern day western animation or slag that is made in HELLywood
Chase Reed
I intend to move to Japan and this worries me. If my job takes me to a place where there's no Catholic churches. I would assume churches are situated in big cities mostly.
Austin Gray
Yeah, but it also would have transmitted the Spanish work ethic.
Levi Smith
Anime would be a quite a loss in opinion or maybe anime would still appear but with solely Christian tones but Spanish work ethic part is actually a great deal, to be honest. We are humans, not some robots that should work, work and do nothing but work
Owen Jackson
To … what now?
Kevin Ward
The Shoguns were of course trained as Samurai, following the way of Bushido. Such a traditionally pagan people would have right away figured out that Christianity, if taken seriously, spelled the end of their traditional claim to power. The Samurai made European traders trample on the cross before letting them stay in predefined precincts where they didn't have any interaction with the local people.
In fact, now that Christianity has been unleashed on the Far East, there's literally been no stopping its spread, much to the dismay of authorities within the People's Republic of China (for instance). Buddhism is, arguably in a multi-generational decline, whereas Shintoism is not a religion in the real sense, but rather cultivation of tradition (so just like western pagan LARPers).
Anyway Japan has always managed to suppress this development through racism towards Gaijin, but Japan isn't so impenetrable. Already, Japanese youth are fascinated with Catholicism as a foreign curiosity, while Buddhist and Shinto clergy become ever more influenced by Christian morals, in order to "keep up" with the modern world. For instance Buddhists traditionally hate charity and withdraw from the world, while laypeople burn incense to many Gods. The Buddhism you see on TV is literally just Buddhists trying to look modern, Christian and relevant.
Pic related is probably more like what Japanese youth think when you say "Christian" it is a foreign curiosity, but growing in influence.
Native Americans are allowed to celebrate the mass outdoors in traditional Indian dress. Who knows why similar accommodations weren't made for Celts.
Camden Reyes
I am well aware, presumed CathFriend. It was banter.
Zachary Bailey
I'm Ortho and yes, I understood it
Jason Edwards
Buddhism is also experiencing a 'reformation' I think. I have heard of another budding sect of Buddhism that is very similar to Protestantism: Following the Tripiṭaka (Buddhist Bible) to the letter and that is the only thing to follow, check; Lighter rituals and rites, check; Gaining popularity with the mass because it is easy mode Buddhism, check.
On the other note. Catholic and Orthodox have churches and parishes in Japan, Protestants on the other hand. I am not exactly sure but I believe they do 'rent' halls and meeting rooms for their communions from what I have seen. Someone posted a youtube vid about Christianity in Japan not too long ago, the interviewee said that they do that but I am not sure which denomination are they but I am sure that Cathodox have their churches and parishes so they might have been Protestants.
Ian Reyes
Protestantism is the largest denomination today in Japan Also protestants mostly dont need buildings, so its usual
Everyone who isn't baptized (either the right way, or by desire) is possessed by the devil, user. Maybe not in the flailing linda blair sort of way, but most certainly they are possessed.
Hideyoshi began passing anti-catholic laws before the dutch arrived in japan.
Honestly, the big thing that led to anti-catholicism in japan is that the japanese were in a major power struggle when catholicism began to bloom in their country, and the leadership learned from portuguese jesuits that spaniards (who arrived after the jesuits) tend to conquer after conversion. It didn't help that many of the christian daimyo were opposed to ieyasu when he finally took power…
basically, it all boils down to power politics.
I would say so. If meiji hadn't forced his back-asswards island to adopt western ways, they would have become a colony under western ways anyway.
by not losing the russo-japanese war? I dunno. The orthodox seem incapable of expansion or proselytizing.
