I desperately want to believe in the bible and christian things but my mind wont allow me to reconcile the fact that there has been hundreds and thousands of other religions and occams razor says more than 1 cant be correct.
how do you reconcile this yourself? what am i missing here?
thanks
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or rather occams razor says that if the majority of the others werent correct, this one isnt either.
better way to say that, that i should have said.
Christianity has traditionally never claimed that we are right and everyone else is completely wrong. Rather, the other religions have elements of truth. Just not the complete truth.
I was a late convert, so I had to go through all the struggles of figuring out what religion is true. What I found when I researched is that the great number of religions is something of an illusion. If you take away redundant religions (equivalent shamanistic religions), universalist religions whereby everyone is saved, dead religions where gods stood in as natural causes people could not explain yet, geographically isolated religions that are unlikely to be true, there is very little left. One transcendant God is all that really makes sense.
Think about it another way: Dont you think that if there was a God who was perceivable in nature, in a world corrupted by sin, that it would make total sense for there to be many half-truths , many attempts at finding God that fell short, and many deceptions? The fact that religion is an integral part of all civilisations we have knowledge of, that it persists to this day and is foundational to societies all over the world, means the desire is something inate in humans?
The very impulse that causes such a proliferation of religion is cause to believe at least one of them could be correct. I would argue that Christianity requires far fewer assumptions to be made than atheism, for one, but also most other religions I am aware of.
I see what you mean.
But what % of the bible do you believe is true if this is the case?
This is too big a question to answer now at 2.35 am on a tablet, but there are differing opinions. It is ALL true in a theological sense. What Genesis conveys (God creates man and earth good, man disobeys, sin and death enters, man is cast out of paradise) is true even if it didnt literally happen. Dont get too caught up on history, because you are likely to miss the real purpose behind the text. I will answer questions tomorrow if no one else has chipped in. Got to sleep now though
occams razor is not something you use to decide whether hypothesis is true
heck of a trump card.. but is it proven, and if proof doesnt matter - what in life do you think requires proof for be true and where is the line drawn? sleep well btw.
yea well i try to apply the same reasoning to everything i do in life, has worked well for most things like jobs, family, school, social life, investing, etc.
It's all valuable and useful for teaching and admonishment.
You have to look at it literarily.
A lot of Genesis is recorded oral tradition, so there's some legend drift from historical record, but we have the distilled and symbolic account.
Most of the rest of the Old Testament is middle-eastern historical account.
The prophets are partially journalistic historic account and part vision -obviously-
Psalms is a collection of songs; Proverbs is a collection of advice; Ecclesiastes is a collection of Solomon's musings on life without God; Song of Solomon is a little more complicated.
The gospels+Acts are more-or-less Greek personal journals.
The letters are letters from Paul to the various church plants on specific issues they were dealing with, some of which can be attested to in other histories.
Revelations is an apocalyptic vision.
I'm probably missing a few things. Regardless, "true" isn't the right kind of mindset to have about it. There is a lot of material, it is very deep, read it, it's free.
Christianity is pretty exclusive. 'Strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.' By necessity Christianity is excludes everyone who doesn't say that Jesus isn't the only way to heaven.
Jesus did spend three days in the Greek afterlife/hell. If nothing else, the Bible confirms Greek paganism.
There have been hundreds and thousands of other religious beliefs, only one of which is true. Atheism/agnosticism is a religious belief. Further, Christianity is the largest religious belief and growing, giving it consensus status.
Hades is the name for hell in Greek…
OP here, wish there was a way to namefag.
ive only responded with these so far
anyway
not sure what you mean here, so youre saying do not verify claims?
didnt mean to include this
Nibba we have IDs here
lol mines all numbers and my mind just blurred it into a post number like a tard. yes youre right.
Does your belief in one political system invalidate another?
I never got why normies are like this. But I've started to think it's because they attribute value to opinions and not facts.
The destruction of Absolute Truth is to blame. Once you accept relative truth, nothing you dare to utter makes sense.
All of it.
There's difference between factual and truth that has degenerated from our language.
I'm saying not all of it can be verified (basically prehistoric accounts in Genesis), or is impossible to verify (poetry, advice, apocalyptic vision).
Please do try and verify things historically; it's rather affirming what people have found. Jesus's life is basically down pat, but some of the Old Testament is still a little shaky, like which pharaoh was the one in Exodus is still a best-guess.
Unless you mean some other kind of 'verification?'
so youre saying multiple god exist?
There's difference between factual and truth that has degenerated from our language.
source?
ok, so jesus was real, but what about the christian god?
I'm saying that other religions existing doesn't mean anything. It doesn't disprove or invalidate another.
If all religions were the same then you could say "yeah well lemme run the numbers and pick the one with the best chance". But that's not the case.
If there's a reason to believe in a certain faith that has nothing to do with probability or chance, then probability isn't actually a factor you should consider when examining religions.
In the same way, nobody says "if everyone's capitalist I'm gonna be capitalist" or "according to occam's razor this political system won't be correct because others weren't". Instead, everyone looks at benefits, theories, examples, etc.
What really matters are the deeper concepts like doctrine, theology, perfection, and so on. Trying to boil everything down to odds won't give you any answers.
Huge leap. Lurk more.
not sure im following your logic.
im saying this:
How can you believe Christianity is connected to an omnipotent god when thousands of religions before it with varying types of gods with differing powers have been worshipped?
or are you just saying that the christian god controlled all the other supposed gods?
Do you need me to hold your hand through the whole thing?
no, just answer the question if possible
I'm saying that "thousands of religions before it with varying types of gods with differing powers have been worshipped" doesn't mean anything. It doesn't make one religion more or less valid than another and probability should not be your reason for discrediting a faith.
You said " occams razor says that if the majority of the others werent correct, this one isnt either."
But religion isn't a relative thing. It's not like you believe in religion X and now you have to somehow reconcile it with religions Y and Z. In the same way, if you believe in capitalism, that doesn't suddenly mean communism is "false", or that you have to somehow make some logic to make communism "exist" at the same time as capitalism. They exist independently of each other.
Another way of explaining it is that every religion in the world could have a probability of existing, something like 2%. But for someone who believes in that specific religion, the probability of it existing is 100%, so there's no consistent basis for comparing faiths on such a broad level. You can't use odds, probabilities, or occams razor to make or break your decision. You have to go deeper than that- so you look at theology, scripture, and all those things.
and again, you have spun a web of dead end logic here that I simply cannot entertain as its just endless and endless "but what about.."
the question is simple.
How can you worship the christian god as if hes the one true god, and Christianity is anything more than a larp based on a best selling book when there have been thousands of other regions throughout history, now extinct, and just as confident in their god as you.
So, you have no actual rebuttal to what I said and instead you decide to strawman. Okay.
I'm just going to leave you a quote from the book "Warranted Christian Belief", and if you have any further questions just read Alvin Plantiga's works.
so you want me to read an entire book by some guy instead of simply answer in my question of how you yourself, can believe your religion is anything more than a glorified fiction book.
why can you just tell me the answer in laymens terms? im not reading a bunch of books that seem like indoctrination more than an answer.
if you cant answer this SIMPLE question in a 4chan post, than it doesnt seem very solid of a religion.
different ID btw probably
seriously why do you have to pass the buck and tell me to read some other mans opinion. cant you tell me??
I mean the way I see it is you have two answers.
A. "i DONT know its bs like most religions, but i dont care"
or.
B. "I know its not BS like other religions because of this evidence here not based on feelings and conjecture"
these are the ONLY two answers.
1. Testament of numerous miracles occurring in the apostolic church throughout history which are well documented, empirically tested, and accompanied by saints who's visions or preaching point to the truth of that church.
2. Testament of the apostles who were killed for the claim they witnessed the risen Christ. If they were lying, they would have said so.
3. We can come to know that a God exists who is the Creator, sustainer, and renewer of all existence through the rational inquiry of philosophy. The Bible is the only scripture which reveals a God who's attributes match those we know the true good must have.
4. Those with purity of heart or honesty of mind are given the grace of faith whereby the knowledge of God and the recognition of him in the call of his son Jesus Christ, is inhered in their hearts.
You know what it's like to want something through direct experience. If you were to try to prove that desire exists to an Android incapable of desire, you surely would not be able to do so. You may be able to point to the accompanying brain states, but you would not be able to prove this is attached to a real feeling you actually experience. All you could point to is the testimony of others who also experience it, and the signs of it's existence in their lives. In much the same way the experience of God's love can only be shown to you by pointing to the testimony of those who have had True Mystical experience of God, and the lives of the saints.
Seek out a saintly soul, and let the grace given to you by God through the Holiness of this saint change your heart. Look for such a one helping the cripple or the crone, or withdrawing from the world on prayer.
How can you believe in a world without a god, when millions of other worlds have been strongly believed in before you?
You.
...
there are lots of different scientific theories, therefore none of them are true
brainlet
You keep shifting the goalposts and you're clearly not reading what I'm saying. I answered you in layman's terms with a simple question and a very basic example. Then you say you don't understand my logic. So I provide a longer explanation with more examples, which you try and strawman what I say by interpreting it as me saying "but what about". You also don't explain how I'm wrong. I decide to give you the benefit of the doubt and give you a complex, and logical answer quoted from a book that answers your exact question. Then suddenly that's too much for you and you want a simple answer but I already gave that.
You're being very intellectually dishonest. If you were here for answers, you'd actually read my sources and my posts, but instead you're just moving the goalposts, strawmanning, and desperately avoiding reading the pages even though they answer your question very clearly. Quit trolling.
if you havent reaced the conclusion that you cant scientifically prove that god exists, yoou need to do quite a bit more thinking. science isn't always able to prove what exists or what is true or what is seen in the heart
S.S.W.I.F.T.T.
SON of Man
Daniel 7:13
Jesus calls Himself the Son of Man multiple times.
Lord of the SABBATH
Mark 2:23-28
The Sabbath is the LORD's day, and the Son of Man is LORD of the Sabbath.
I AM
John 8:56-59
Here, the Son of Man uses the same declaration as God in the burning bush with Moses. He quite explicitly calls Himself God, and the Jews rage shows this was what He meant.
FORGIVENESS of Sins
Mark 2:5-7
His authority to forgive sins comes from His divinity.
TRIAL
Mark 14:61-62
Once again, Christ calls Himself the Son of Man and refers to the prophecies of Daniel.
Luke 23:3
He gives a positive answer to Pilate, rather than correcting him.
THOMAS
John 20:28-29
He does not correct Thomas, as He would is Thomas were in error. Rather, He blesses him.
Jesus IS the God of the Bible. He is "Ehyeh asher Ehyeh" or "I AM that I AM".
Now, my friend:
B E G O M E
E
G
O
M
E
you mean hearsay?
please.. explain that?
how does this correlate?
ok. but this isnt about other scientific theories youre mentioning
no goalpost shifting, literally a single unchanging question ive had since the OP
i have reached this conclusion, hence the thread asking for other reasons for believing.
also diff ID, thanks ISP
Pray to have faith. The answers will come later.
ive tried praying, for years. i have had no change in curiosity/questions answered
Read
yes, i read it all. bible passages. not trying to be disrespectful here, but i could do the same with harry potter and the goblet of fire, doesnt mean hagred is going to buy me a broomstick.
maybe re-read my original question and try to answer using your own words.
2+2=4
uncountably many wrong answers
OP here, yea well I didnt expect anyone to prove god through a formula, more just asking for their own words on why they believe christianity is the final and true religion.
Why are you even here?
i dont know why im here much anymore to be honest. yes, there very well was a man named jesus and he spoke a language. but how does this answer my question?
nvm same ID, thanks isp
This answers your question because we know He was who He said He was by the lives of the apostles after His resurrection. They weren't living a lie, all but one died by execution rather than fold and say it was all a hoax.
You aren't even considering people's responses. I make a post with 4 completely separate points and you wave it away with a stupid 4 word response.
You believe the testament of scientific evidence, but not the testament of historical or logical evidence… Okay.
People have believed in a world with many God's,a world with no God,a world that is God, a world with one God, a world that's a dream, a world that's a simulation, etc…
By your logic, Occam's razor suggests that your belief that there is no God most likely is not true. What makes you believe that over all the other possible world views?
In any case, it's clear you really don't want answers but are merely looking to be reassured in your disbelief at best, or trolling. I'm done here.
i see a screenshot of other threads and yet more conjecture on your part. what is to garner here?
Ive considerd every response, and I waved yours away with a short response as it was the only response that was fitting.
also,
scientific evidence =/= words from a book written by people no longer alive or that have provided any experiment setup that can be carried out today and re-affirmed.
please look into the scientific method.
But im not asking for scientific answers, im asking for a PERSONAL response on how you believe Christianity to be the true final religion,.. I suppose I've received my answer, you lie to yourself and do not care if you know it is for sure.
Explain how your response was fitting?
I did not refer to the Bible for evidence in 3 of my answers. In 2 I pointed you too verifiable evidence, and in one that evidence was empirical.
I have scientific training and work as an engineer. I don't need you to explain the scientific method to me.
I'm using the word testament in the sense of testimony as in the testimony of evidence in court. That a ball dropped from various heights will have fall times predictable according to f=ma^2 gives testament to the validity of Newton's theories. Likewise the evidence I referred you to give testament to the truth of biblical claims. Note:. I did not refer to the Bible as evidence.
I have you 4, numbered answers as to how and why I believe what I do. You have not remotely addressed 3 of them, and hand waved the fourth. That you then dismiss me in this way proves you are not here to have a serious or rational discussion. You argue like a child.
ok, and i said i believe I have my answer, you are taking heresay and conjecture from people who lived thousands of years ago and solid enough proof of Christianity being the way of life you should follow as commanded by a supernatural being.
Occam's razor and the slippery slope "fallacy" are two of the most damaging logical traps you can fall into. They will cause you to believe that news orgs aren't biased to the left and colluding together (it's unrealistic, the simplest answer is that they're all independently reporting and they come up with the same answers because it's the truth!), that gay marriage is ok (we're normal people like you, we don't want to push homosexuality on your kids
well that has never happened, but ill take your word for it.
as for all of the other hotbutton topics you bring up, may i ask why this is pertinent? thanks
If you are ok with homosexuality and abortion then please do not become a pretend Christian. We have enough subverters in the church as it is.
Forgot pic related
ill leave you be to put random weird words in my mouth, please enjoy
nice screenshot, care to elaborate?
You act like a cunt. You were concerned about Occam's razor and I told you with examples why it's a bunch of crap. Believe whatever you want.
I literally following a line of logic ive been following since i created the OP and this makes me a cunt.
nice potty mouth btw
i'm
I'd rather keep aristotle's beard and not be like that clean shaven nominalist faggot who practically birthed the modern world.
Basically, once you know anything about metaphysics, the trinity is the only logical description of god possible, and christianity is the only religion with the trinity.
A non-trinitarian god is not fully good, and thus if such a god existed, the universe would not exist. Thus, christianity is true because one of it's more confusing and strange theological doctrines is an absolute logical necessity for the existence of the universe.
100%
Top-tier
this is conjecture seeing as you cannot fully prove you know exactly what the universe is/can be/will ever be/is right now.
interesting nonetheless and I enjoyed your intelligent post, however misguided.
If I gave hard proofs, I would take up too much space to post. That's why I told you to google thomas aquinas and william lane craig. They're a bit better at laying out the cosmological arguments I take for granted in the major section of my post.
yea, well im not a philosophy majpr, im just asking for laymens terms, kinda ridiculous everyone keeps telling me to read x amount of books and take an online course or two just to understand why Christianity could possibly be anything but fiction.
new id
That's pretty tantamount to saying truth doesn't exist innit? The sum of erroneous claims is logically greater than correct ones so why trust any claims at all?
good point, i guess I still just go with with makes the most sense logically, as you're right, anything can be disproven - yet we still tend to give credence to what seems like it makes the most sense. For instance, the double yellow line on the road is a divider of lanes, most people agree with this because of the amount of evidence of head on collisions when not observing it.
prob diff id btw
It's called weights, you dumbee. did you fail statistics?
Therefore
sigh. please elaborate.
i cant
You may be missing one or two brains
I know people are gonna say that I'm a modernist heretic, and I probably am, for saying this, but I had a similar issue when my grandfather, a devout muslim, passed away a few months ago. I looked at my pastor and said to him "I don't believe my grandfather is in hell. Because I don't believe god punishes bad faith, I think he punishes bad people." He agreed especially with the latter, the former he wasn't sure about, but the way I see it, and I might be extremely naive for saying this, but to paraphrase an idea from C.S. Lewis, if you serve good, you serve God, whether you believe it's God the Father, Allah, flying spaghetti monster, what ever. If someones only "sin" is a lack of belief in Christ as the son of god, whether the message of the gospel was just relayed poorly, or he's from a place, in this case Turkey, where being a christian is a completely foreign idea and just wasn't likely to happen, I can't see a perfect, loving, just god sending someone to the lake of fire for that. After all, I believe Christ died for everyone's sins, not just us. Call it modernist heresy, but it's how I reconciled the issue.
how is climate change not going to destroy the world?
What?
wouldn't an unrealized potential of God be the incarnation of Jesus?
my reply was meant for this guy whoops:
Oooooh. I was legitimately confused for a minute.
Judging based on your replies, you just don't believe in the existence of truth. The only thing is for some reason something prompted you to ask if things might not be that way, but now that you're here you keep reverting to denying the existence of truth despite their attempts.
Guess what, in this sentence you just invented your own false god. You have to make up your mind whether you believe in objective truth or not, you can't sit here and make up stuff that makes you feel better but then ask to hear the truth at the same time. I don't care how many gentle affirming C.S Lewis's there are, you must decide to seek truth or give up and end up where all unbelieving and liars go.
Watch this youtu.be
ok sure, people in african tribes that never heard of Jesus in their lives are going to hell.
interesting viewpoint. thanks for the actual answer based on my question. still no idea why you would even call yourself christian if you have the braincells to perform this logic operation.
id..
THANKS ISP
There are multiple accounts of history; how do we know which account is true? Finding truth in a sea of lies and confusion is something that is in our hearts and should be in your heart as well. Read G.K. Chesterton's 'Orthodoxy' or any C.S. Lewis book concerning Christianity. Or, you may as well read the primary source: The Bible.
are these posts parody??
I literally just said like 5 posts up, why is everyone telling me to go read a book series instead of just answering in their own words?
◄ Proverbs 9:10 ►
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
If you would humble yourself then you would come to realize that truth and knowledge only comes through God. The scientific method is nothing when you cannot guarantee the certainty of the sun rising tomorrow or the world still being in existence after your death. These are matters of faith. You also exalt yourself by condemning our responses without good reason. We recommended you read books and other sources because we want you receive more thorough responses that others have gone through the pains of writing up as opposed to those of us who don't want to write a thesis on an imageboard.
As for your question OP, multiple gods being worshiped across history means nothing. They are dead gods. They never had power and were as real as the Power Rangers. Matthew 16:16 affirms this:
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Your argument can be described as a man who refuses to believe that Kim Kardashian is real because there are figurines which look like her; questioning to himself whether those figurines can all be Kim Kardashian.
backed by conjecture on your part i assume?
one time my neighbor was drunk and said he was batman. should i believe him?
The reason I believe the God of the Bible is the real one, is because of actual evidence.
Multiple archeological discoveries have been made that support Biblical events, such as the flood and Noah’s Ark, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, and the splitting of the Red Sea. The Bible also contains many prophecies of which quite a lot have been fulfilled. (search for Ron Wyatt and Kent Hovind for more on this)
Another thing I find interesting, is that the Bible says that the Sun, the Moon, and the stars were given to us, not only for light, seasons, keeping time, and a division between day and night, but also for signs. The Sun is about 400 times bigger than the moon, but it also happens to be about 400 times farther away from us than the moon. This gives us a unique experience during solar eclipses, and there’s no other planet (that we know of) that experiences solar eclipses like we do.
The way the Bible describes heaven and hell and how you end up there makes a lot of sense to me, other religions don't even come close when it comes to the afterlife.
And last but not least, I've experienced a few things myself that makes me belief that choosing Jesus was the right thing to do.
When I was little, my mom and I were going through a rough period when we didn't have much money. She was afraid we wouldn't have enough to get to the end of the month, so she prayed to God for help. Shortly after, some strangers with 2 big bags full of groceries came to our door and said that they needed to deliver it to us. Also, in one of the bags was a new watch, and "coincidentally" my moms watch just died a few days prior. Literally nobody knew about our shortage, nor about the broken watch, except for me and her, and we told nobody. And it was impossible for anyone else to notice too, because we didn't have much contact with family, friends or neighbors.
Another thing I experienced was way more recently, when I just started to believe and was starting to get closer to God. It was right before I went to bed, I went on my knees to pray and as soon as started, I heard the heating system in the attic go on and off, on and off, etc. We hadn't been using it for a few weeks because it was spring and the temperature was pretty decent. I ignored it and continued praying. It kept turning on and off for the exact duration of my prayer. When I was done, it stopped. Just to be sure, I went downstairs to check on the thermostat, and it was off.. like I thought. It was like demons were trying to spook me out because I was getting closer to God.
And last, tho it was my mom who experienced this, and not me. This was before I was born and before she became a believer (tho she thought she was a Christian, but in hindsight she wasn't). She told me that she bought some LP of the band Black Sabbath and listened to it at home. At night, when she was in bed, she heard footsteps and rumbling in the hallway and in another room. She asked out loud "who is there?" and the lights in her room began turning on and off, on and off, etc. She said something like "in the name of Jesus, go away" and the light went off and stayed off. My 2 experiences weren't as clear as this, and I know that this is weak evidence since I didn't experience it myself, but my mom never lies to me, she's the most sincere and honest person I know.
In conclusion, I believe that most religions around the world have their root in Ancient Babylon, which explains their similarities.
Why do I think Christianity is the only true religion and not one of multiple? Because Jesus says that He is the only way.
Here's a promise of Jesus that you might find interesting:
"He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."
- John 14:21
man, i had such high hopes for your post in the beginning, then you literally just went on to talk about your feelings and what some man supposedly said 2k years ago that you now take as fact, or rather literally gospel.
You answered my question though, you believe christianity is the one true religion because you are easily persuaded with stories and fable.
Did you have years of ninja training, a cave, batmoble, and a side kick named Robin when your drunk neighbor said that statement?
no, because no one has this.
bump for interest
But I thought /c*tholics/ were against usury?
Christianity isn't a relgion. Jesus fought against relgion and the religious… And the religious murdered him for it.
Chritianity is a lifestyle, a way of life free from the works of religion. That's what makes it different.
Stop thinking of it as a relgion and think of it as a different way of living.
Stop trying to free yourself. You're already free.
Then your batman comparison is bad because Peter said, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God" because of Jesus fitting the criteria
You do realize there are more and better philosophical razor's than Occams?
user you're blind, your mind is set to see only 1 answer and you deny any proofs, reasons, beliefs or claims by anyone who does not conform to your way of thinking under childish notions and excuses. I hope God opens your eyes someday.