Is it okay to pray to angels?

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Heresy

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Sure, they can help, especially against demons.
They don't act outside of the will of God.

There's no way it's not the same guy making this exact same thread with this exact same image.

It's a meme book because it contradicts theology and angelology from other parts of the Bible.

Apparently I was in the wrong here because of linguistic differences, but angels can be wherever they want on earth (like saints) because they are spiritual beings who are in heaven in the direct presence of God.

Ftfy

FTFY

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I unironically don't even know who that is.

You're new I guess?

The whole being able to pray to angels and saints thing basically boils down to angels and saints being a part of the body of Christ, thus they inherit Christ's omnipresence, etc.

Revelation 22:8-9
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, "Do not do that I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God."

Matthew 4:9-10
and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me." Then Jesus said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"

Romans 1:25
For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Do not pray to angels. Neither pray to saints. Pray to God and God alone:
◄ Matthew 6:6 ►
"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.

Yeah Catholic here we follow all those verses.
Why don't you do something different times time? Like, If you know the argument is going to go down X way, why don't you jump to that part already? Having to wrestle the same points continually is boring.

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Been here for years, just never bothered to look up Jim.

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Before your comment I hadn't grasped to a full extent as to why Catholics pray to saints. I still believe we shouldn't ask those who are resting to pray for us but I thank you for your input.

Paradise is said to be great and all, but its never said that you don't work in there anywhere in the bible.
Also, some Catholic Saints have spoken about how they'll try to send help form heaven before they died. St. Therese comes to mind, read up on her.

I read somewhere that Michael is actually just the name Jesus takes when he rides into battle. Sounds like bull shit though

In every one of those, imagine an audience funneling all their thoughts into the brain of the prayer recipient AT ONCE.

Now can you imagine even if if any one of them can receive such prayers besides the Lord Almighty, would they even be able to make anything intelligible out of the noise? They wont, and in fact, it would drive them nuts.

There is literally no reason not to send your prayers to God directly.

Anons, do not pray to Angels, they are mere servants.

Short anserw: prayer of a just man availeth much.
Long anserw: On the contrary, It is written (Job 5:1): "Call . . . if there be any that will answer thee, and turn to some of the saints." Now, as Gregory says (Moral. v, 30) on this passage, "we call upon God when we beseech Him in humble prayer." Therefore when we wish to pray God, we should turn to the saints, that they may pray God for us.

Further, the saints who are in heaven are more acceptable to God than those who are on the way. Now we should make the saints, who are on the way, our intercessors with God, after the example of the Apostle, who said (Romans 15:30): "I beseech you . . . brethren, through our Lord Jesus Christ, and by the charity of the Holy Ghost, that you help me in your prayers for me to God." Much more, therefore, should we ask the saints who are in heaven to help us by their prayers to God.

Further, an additional argument is provided by the common custom of the Church which asks for the prayers of the saints in the Litany.

I answer that, According to Dionysius (Eccl. Hier. v) the order established by God among things is that "the last should be led to God by those that are midway between." Wherefore, since the saints who are in heaven are nearest to God, the order of the Divine law requires that we, who while we remain in the body are pilgrims from the Lord, should be brought back to God by the saints who are between us and Him: and this happens when the Divine goodness pours forth its effect into us through them. And since our return to God should correspond to the outflow of His boons upon us, just as the Divine favors reach us by means of the saints intercession, so should we, by their means, be brought back to God, that we may receive His favors again. Hence it is that we make them our intercessors with God, and our mediators as it were, when we ask them to pray for us.

That's a strawman, I retracted my position that angels were omnipresent because I mistranslated the term into my own language.
You are still arguing why you'd compare the supernatural, something which angels and saints factually are, with natural boundaries.

This is the same as saying that you don't need to pray for others because that person can also just pray for himself.

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Just because something is spiritual doesn't mean it doesn't have a boundary, angels aren't God, nor are saints, they can't be at two places at once. That ability belongs to God and God alone. Why is Satan not omnipresent despite being a fallen angel? If he was omnipresent he could just attach his spirit to every man, child and woman. Why would Satan need to convert followers if he could just replicate himself?

Why would God need a host of angels if he can just replicate one to be at two places at once? Therefor what sense is it to pray to angels if they can't hear you?

If an audience in a arena the size of a country yells at you at to pray for them at once, would you be able to intelligently hear them through the cacophony of noise? Only God has that ability. You can pray to God that others might pray for you, and you can ask them to pray for you themselves within the constraints that God gave you and them, but God didn't give the saints or angels the ability to hear everything at once.

Angels and Saints are in glorified form and part of the literal spiritual Body of Christ. In other words, they share in his ability to take and tolerate all that noise The scenario you're describing is literally a non-issue.

Psalm 65:2
O thou that hearest prayer, unto thee shall all flesh come.

1 Timothy 2:5-6
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Read Job 4:17-18, and also see that it's Eliphaz talking so read Job 42:7.

First of all the supernatural cannot be limited by natural laws, second, the angels and the saints dwell within the presence of God in heaven, and third, S.t Pio would like to have a word with you.

Once again the only way your narrative would work is by limiting the supernatural through natural law.
If this were true then Moses and Elijah would not have been able to appear right next to Jesus here on earth.

What has this to do with anything?

Your misinterpreting intercession with worship on purpose because else your narrative would not even be arguable.

It doesn't say unto the saints shall all flesh come. God is known as "thou that hearest prayer." So therefore directing prayers to anyone else is ignorance of Psalm 65. Also Psalm 5 makes the same points, prayers are directed toward God.

No, no I'm not.

To reference Job again, in chapter 9, Job says clearly in Job 9:33 that there is no daysman (synonym for mediator) between him and God. So he thinks there is no mediator. Of course in 1 Timothy 2:5-6, the Son is that mediator. Thus we can have access to God through the Son.

Yes it does, because Job 5:1 comes after this and the answer to the question in Job 5:1 is that without God there is no one else to turn to. If you read Job 4 you would know this.

Eliphaz the Temanite did not say everything right. In Job 5, Eliphaz the Temanite is speaking. So I'm surprised you don't understand this.

You just did the equivalent of quoting the part in Scripture where Satan speaks and treated it as fact. Because God rebuked Eliphaz in Job 42.

Ahhh, another strawman.
Such a shame that there's a difference between asking for intercession and prayer akin to worship to God.

The prayers to saints are appeals to pray for us, nothing else.

Again an argument only if we turned to the saints because of the saints and not because of God.

I did no such thing whatsoever, I was only quoting and being baffled on the amazing exegesis of taking random verses and building a context around it.

You should start a hay factory at this point by the way, seriously.

You're praying to things other than God.

All these people saying angels aren't omnipresent confuse me.

Idk if I should trust you, Satan.

Yeah it's what Jehovah's Witnesses believe. Completely different beings though; Michael is a created being and the foremost of the angelic princes, hence the title "Archangel".

Since saints in heaven and angels have an insight of Almighty God's glory we must nowise believe that anything outside that glory is unknown to them.
Each of the blessed must needs see in the Divine essence as many other things as the perfection of his happiness requires.
For the perfection of a man's happiness requires him to have whatever he will, and to will nothing amiss: and each one wills with a right will, to know what concerns himself. Hence since no rectitude is lacking to the saints, they wish to know what concerns themselves, and consequently it follows that they know it in the Word. Now it pertains to their glory that they assist the needy for their salvation: for thus they become God's co-operators, "than which nothing is more Godlike," as Dionysius declares (Coel. Hier. iii). Wherefore it is evident that the saints are cognizant of such things as are required for this purpose; and so it is manifest that they know in the Word the vows, devotions, and prayers of those who have recourse to their assistance.
Omnipresence is not required to hear prayers. That's the first thing. Second is that you ignore that rebellion of Satan was ended in instant since God is almighty.
Passage of James says quite exquisite that prayer of the just have more potential to be heard. Nothing here says that we "pray to God that others might pray for us". Morver, context shows that we do not pray to God for our sake but for sake of others. And Just in Heaven do that.
Passage from Job is alredy explained.
Omniscience is what makes God aware of prayers, not omnipresence. That's the first thing. Second is that both omnipresence and omniscience belongs to God's essence and by comprehending this essence God can be omnipresent and omniscient. Third point is beatific vision.

First of all: I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men:
Second of all: Take all these words together, and we may easily understand in what sense the apostle calls our Saviour Christ, the one or only mediator; that is, he is the only mediator, who at the same time is our Redeemer; the only mediator who could mediate betwixt God, the person offended by sin, and men the offenders; the only mediator who reconciled God to mankind by his incarnation and death, by the infinite price of his blood, by his own merits, independently of the merits of any other. All Catholics allow that the dignity and office of mediator in this sense belongs only to our Redeemer, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, made man to save us. The sense then of this place is, that as there is but one God, who created all, so there is but one mediator, who redeemed all. But yet the name of mediator is not so appropriated to Christ, but that in an inferior and different sense the Angels and saints in heaven, and even men on earth, who pray to God for the salvation of others, may be called mediators, intercessors, or advocates; and we may apply ourselves to them to pray, intercede, and mediate for us, without any injury to Christ, since we acknowledge that all their intercession and mediation is always grounded on the merits of Christ, our Redeemer. The same word for mediator, in the Greek as well as in the Latin, is given to Moses, God's servant. Gal. iii. 19. See also Deut. v. 5. The words of our Saviour himself, (Mat. xxiii.) taken according to the letter, contain an express prohibition of being called masters, or fathers; and this reason is given, because all men have one Father in heaven, and because Christians have one master, Christ. Yet no one can justly pretend from thence, that in a different sense, a man may not be called father or master, without any injury to God, or to Christ.
Christ is the one and only mediator of redemption; who gave himself, as the apostle writes, a redemption for all. He is also the only mediator, who stands in need of no other to recommend his petitions to the Father. But this is not against our seeking the prayers and intercessions, as well of the faithful upon earth, as of the saints and Angels in heaven, for obtaining mercy, grace, and salvation, through Jesus Christ. As S. Paul himself often desired the help of the prayers of the faithful, without any injury to the mediatorship of Jesus Christ.
If there be other mediators among the Angels and saints, they are only so in subordination to the first, who by themselves have no right to mediation or favours, and who cannot demand them but through the merits of him who is our only essential mediator.
…Which only help my case?
…to show what exactly? Do you even know why he was rebuked? Because he spoke ill about Job and had really wrong view about providence. Not because he said obvious truth that we can ask for intecession of saints.
Also, very next verse says: my servant Job shall pray for you: his face I will accept, that folly be not imputed to you
Also to quote Saint Gregory a bit more: Eliphaz in accounting blessed Job to be worthy of blame, he puffed himself up in pride of wisdom. And hence, after declarations so good and righteous, he subjoins words of mocking, and says,
Chap. V. 1. Call now, if there be any that will answer thee.
For Almighty God often passes by the prayer of that man in his trouble, who slights His precepts in the season of rest. Hence it is written, He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination. Now for us ‘to call,’ is to beseech God with humble prayer; but for God to ‘answer,’ is to vouchsafe an accomplishment to our prayers; and so he says, Call now, if any will answer thee. As though he said in plain words, ‘However thou mayest cry out in thy distress, thou hast not God answering thee, in that the voice in tribulation findeth not Him, Whom the mind in tranquillity disregarded. Where he adds in yet further derision,
And turn thee to some one of the Saints?
As though he said in scorn, ‘The Saints too thou canst never obtain for abettors in thy distress, whom thou wouldest not have for companions in thy mirth.

And?
Micah 6:5 O my people, remember, I pray thee
1 Kings 2:17 And he said: I pray thee speak to king Solomon
1 Samuel 9:18 And Saul came to Samuel in the midst of the gate and said: Tell me, I pray thee, where is the house of the seer?
Etc etc.

I'm sorry, it's probably because the English language isn't diverse enough to fully differentiate between appealing to saints for intercession in the name of God, for the glory of God and worshiping God through prayer.

I'd still make an appointment with a bank for that hay factory though.

I see they had to alter this verse.

Yes, thank you for adding this verse. We see here that Job is praying for them, we don't see them praying to Job. Big difference.

No, it's perfectly fine for this. You don't pray TO other things besides God. Prayers and supplication accord to God alone, see Psalm 65:2.

You should try harder OP

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Jesus' omniscience isn't limited

Jesus states that only the Father knows when the Second Coming will take place in Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32. Jesus voluntarily gave up some knowledge when He incarnated. Paul describes the process in Philippians 2:6–8. Jesus obviously demonstrated His omniscience at many points in the Gospels, but told the Disciples that His omniscience is limited to what the Father wants Him to know in John 15:15. Beats me how much any of this applies after the Ascension if at all.

There have been some rather incompatible arguments on the pro praying to angels side.

So according to Tobit God doesn't really hear people's prayers but needs intermediaries like Raphael, unless Raphael has been given mere busywork. So in Tobit world God probably doesn't really know about a sparrow's fall, but rather someone in the hierarchy knows.

All Christians even on Earth are part of the body of Christ. As Paul explained, different people have different abilities and different functions in the body.

I don't consider Padre Pio a remotely trustworthy source but I don't want to go too much into that to keep this thread on topic. And Moses and Elijah making an appearance doesn't mean that they are omnipresent/omniscient and hear your prayers.

But it's really something to see Catholics openly admit to praying to saints. Normally Catholics always deny that.

Anyone a saint, is one in communion with God, and a confirmed worthy of the beatitude of the Son.

No saint works by his own power, but by His alone. Most prayers to saints are made with petitions for their good works in accordance and in authority with Jesus Christ.

That's because your Anglo-Saxon slang is limited to one use of the word 'to pray' these days while other languages use it on an asking context as well.

Can you for once NOT strawman please it's getting annoying.
You were again limiting the supernatural through natural law which would make the appearance of Moses and Elijah impossible, that's why I said that.
Besides this they dwell in heaven with God, are directly part of the Body of Christ and like Philippians 4:13 says it makes the saints possible to share in His power as much as He allows.

That's because most here are native English where prayer is something regarded as pleading to a deity.
Other languages aren't as restricted.

…Or it is KJV authors who altered those verses.
Plus, you ignore first argument.
I foolishly thought, that you would actually read the verse. Mea culpa. Here, have all of it: Take unto you therefore seven oxen, and seven rams, and go to my servant Job

Tobit says the same thing that John do
Revelation 8:3-4 And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.
Prayer is offered to a person in two ways: first, as to be fulfilled by him, secondly, as to be obtained through him. On the first way we offer prayer to God alone, since all our prayers ought to be directed to the acquisition of grace and glory, which God alone gives, according to Psalm 83:12, "The Lord will give grace and glory." But in the second way we pray to the saints, whether angels or men, not that God may through them know our petitions, but that our prayers may be effective through their prayers and merits. Hence it is written (Apocalypse 8:4) that "the smoke of the incense," namely "the prayers of the saints ascended up before God." This is also clear from the very style employed by the Church in praying: since we beseech the Blessed Trinity "to have mercy on us," while we ask any of the saints "to pray for us."

Firstly, BIG difference between being part of the Body of Christ on earth, and being part of the Body of Christ in a literal spiritual sense.

Secondly, so far, the anti-praying side's arguments have been either trite or weak, consisting of either:

a) The tired and cliched': "You're not REALLY just praying for the saints to pray for you to God, you're WORSHIPPING/You're worshiping them BY praying to them regardless of intentions, you dirty closet pagans you!"

or

b) Some head-cannon tier fan-fiction theory about how glorified immortal beings beyond the natural, who are part of the literal spiritual Body of Christ, would have their heads explode, Scanners™ style, if they received a lot of prayers.

Even outside of the so-called Deuterocanonical/Apocraphal books, there are examples of angels interceding and performing actions for people on behalf of God. An Angel goes out and kills thousands of Assyrians, and literal armies of angels revealed to be on the side of Elisha and his forces in 2 Kings is kosher, but an angel helping out a couple of people in Tobit is weird? Seriously? If you're going to ask why God has angels as intermediaries, you might as well ask why God sends out angels to do work for him at all when he can just do it himself.

While I myself am Orthodox, neither Catholics nor Orthodox have ever denied praying to saints. Where are you getting this information from?

Go to =/= pray to

Go to him=>ask him to pray for you=>he will pray for you
And do I have to tell you that "to ask" and "to pray" is the same verb?

It doesn't say pray to Job after he dies. It says go to him because otherwise he can't even hear you.

Why not just admit you aren't following scripture and pretend scripture is your reason.

But saints in Heaven do hear us. And since asking (praying) to someone so that he pray for you is ok why wouldn't we do that?
I fallow Scripture since Scripture says that it's ok to pray to saints.

We just agreed that is not ok, and also it doesn't work. So I don't understand why you say this. You don't pray TO someone other than God. You don't do it.

all prayer to any Saint is a prayer to God, since they are all joined by the beatific vision. A prayer to a true Saint in heaven is just a way of essentially focusing on some part of the infinite nature and power of God realized. When you think about a penitent sinner and the power of God to transform their life, and you think about St. Mary Magdalene's life, you focus and realize the power of God and the graces he bestowed on her. When you ask her to pray for you, you are praying to God, and focusing on the power of God shown in her life and asking for the same. It reminds you of his power and how it has manifested in the past and how you wish for it to manifest again.

pray tell me, are you a retard?
oh noes i just prayed to you, guess i'm going to hell. pray just means ask. to make it clearer in latin we use dulia for veneration of the saints and latria is only for God alone. (there is also hyperdulia for St. Mary as she is the highest saint ever, but it's still just dulia). Latria is worship for God and God alone. No Catholic would ever say that latria is for any saint or anything created.

Yes but only for 2/3ds of them

Protestants.

Catholic prayers work like democratic republic, you get representives like Saints and Angels to pray for you.