Hey Zig Forums, convince me to believe in God please. I went through the cycle you see often times on Zig Forums...

Begone heretic.
Go worship yourself somewhere else.

I do actually want to, I just don't want to have to deny my reason.

Seems like you're stretching the meaning of worship. By worship do you mean primary motivation in life?

I initially stopped believing because God didn't make rational sense to me. It's a bit easier to argue that some deity exists, but what would make that deity the Christian God?

I read most of the Bible when I was young. I jump around inside my New American Catholic bible they gave us at Confirmation.

I've been studying Byzantine history lately. Honestly, reading their history just makes my desire to start going to church stronger. I don't really have any desire to go to protestant churches, but I also have no experience other than a few non-denominational services and a Baptist service.

Thank you. I don't like Francis but Catholicism is what I know and what half my ancestors were. The other half were Anglican but we always went to Catholic church.

I've been thinking about getting a nice Bible for my bookshelf, maybe I'll actually read it. Any suggestions on which Bible I should get?

Here are two of the major blockers I have to actually believing in God:

I want to believe, but I don't want to set aside my rationality. Is setting aside your rationality requires to believe in God, in your opinion? If so, how do you personally do this(better answered by someone who has previously been an atheist.)

On another note, I try to never use the label atheist when describing myself to others. Being an atheist usually comes with a lot of other canned beliefs that I don't want to associate with.

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Firstly, I would make note of the prophecies that link Christ and the Old Testament (Moses telling of another to come after him, Isaiah's suffering servant, etc.).
Secondly, of all the religions in the world, the Christian God is the only one who 1) Has a vested interest in helping His creatures, 2) Took on flesh so that man might join Him, and 3) The testimony of the martyrs of the early Church (I mean, 11 of the 12 Apostles went to their graves professing the faith, the other one died a natural death doing the same.)

As for rationality, it's a great tool to discern things about the natural world and such, but it's not the ultimate tool. Rationality by itself has brought people to some strange places, and man's reason (although useful) is still hindered enough to not be solely reliable.
In other words, you don't have to toss out rationality, but it shouldn't be emphasized to the exclusion of mysticism, prayer, theology, etc.
I hope these were satisfactory answers, user.

I would refer you to pic related, and for a more in-depth analysis I would refer you to the book I reffered you too by David Bently Hart. Atheistic thought, in my experience, is simply unable to explain the fundamental metaphysical, and even physical, underpinnings of the universe without resorting to magical thinking. Where did the four fundamental forces, and in turn every law of physics that order the world, come from? Even more fundamentally, where did basic laws of causality, the necessity of a cause for an effect, and contingency, the dependence of an effect on it's cause, come from? The scientific method, preferring to focus on purely observable phenomenon, can explore the natures of these phenomenon, but it has no pretensions of being able to explain their origins. This is ok in and of itself, but it does not go all the way towards explaining the origins of our transitory world. And, indeed, our world is completely transitory, and since the time of Plato and Aristotle, we have recognized that a basic, eternal form of existence must be necessary to explain the existence of our arbitrary, temporal form form of existence.

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Sure I'll try to be convincing, but you seem to be on the right track anyway. Consider that if you're aware enough to have figured out;
So you've become a "philosophical Christian," but atheism and its cult of "reason" is still nagging you.

So explain to me again, why you think that the best system of beliefs known to humanity which is head-and-shoulders above every other human thought, is just a human creation and not God-breathed and holy?

How is it possible to come so far along the path as you have and stop? Unless you think Hinduism or Buddhism or Islam would have given birth to the modern world of science and achievement if they started out in Europe and white?

How we live our life is our testament of our worship to God.

You know what scratch this
Let me try another way… You need the theological virtue of Hope, yes there is faith, but you need to be able to say "it is not wrong to hope that there is a God and a heaven. Though I cannot understand it I will live as if it were the case, trusting that it is for the best."

Where your hope is strong your faith will be strong, but the hope will always proceed the faith

You don't have to lie to anyone. Tell them exactly what you said here - that you want to have faith, but are struggling to rationalize belief in God. I can promise you, you aren't the only one who feels that way. Engaging in worship, prayer, and a spiritual life in general can help you grow in faith.

Yeah honesty before faith, little virtues before big ones

I'd recommend the RSV-2CE. It's a fully catholic translation, just with no archaic language, not paraphrasing close to the source, and no feminist inclusive language (using men instead of "men and women, etc).

ignatius.com/Ignatius-Bible-RSV-2nd-Edition-Leather-P1134.aspx

First of all, believing in a God can be philosophically proved. Are you familiar with St. Thomas Aquinas' 5 proofs of God? There is a good book called "Five Proofs of the Existence of God" by Edward Feser where he goes over these again in a modern context, plus responding to the so-called new atheist "refutations" of these proofs (spoiler alert: the atheist "refutations" are laughably bad).

Once you get familiar with that, the historical argument for the resurrection of Christ might be a good next step. This is a good video which goes over it youtube.com/watch?v=A0iDNLxmWVM It's ~40 min but well worth the watch in my opinion.

Lastly, i'd really recommend reading a couple of the Gospels. At least the Gospel of John, and perhaps the Gospel of Luke. To me some of the things in the Gospels were really amazing to me, it was like speaking directly to me at certain points in my life. The ethics and teachings of Jesus are really profound and unmatched. They may seem deceptively simple at times but there is a depth to them, concise yet powerful and so applicable at different points and it's like they continue to speak to you throughout your life.

Meditating a bit on the ethic and the life of Jesus is also great. He is really the only King, the only religious figure, the only story, that was perfectly consistent. He acted exactly how he preached. No special rules for him, he did not asked to be worshiped like a King during his mission even though he proved again and again he demonstrated miracles that no one had ever seen. He kissed the feet of his disciples when they couldn't even bare it. He healed the ear of the roman guard when being arrested, he said "Man has no greater love than to lay down his life for a friend" and he really meant it. Everything he preached he practiced perfectly, and it's something incredibly hard to find. As some people say, find me one person better than the Messiah and I will follow him. You really can't. Another one of my favorite lines is "If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple." It's a tough one but it's something that I and probably many other people have felt at some point.

As others have said, while I totally agree that the West and the world in general needs more people to come back to the church, and getting a trad qt waifu and having lots of children is great, but you have to first start with your love for the Lord. It has to be primarily spiritual and not material, otherwise it will never work and the Devil will play with your life. Your wife may not stay, your daughters may leave the faith and get married to god knows what and thot around town, and everything will be far worse than it is. Only from the grace of God can you keep your marriage strong and loving, develop your childrens' lives strong and fruitful and so on.

Hope some of this information helps you.

Read some Christian apologetics, either modern day ones like Tim Keller or David Bentley Hart, or the classics GK Chesterton and CS Lewis

OP, you need to start asking and answering some tough questions. Like what happens to us after we die? What is up with these paranormal occurrences? Is there life elsewhere in the universe? What is up with UFOs? These are perfectly rational questions to ask, yet why haven't we been able to come up with definitive solid answers? There is a knee-jerk reaction against these types of questions, they are seen as taboo by society because it forces us all to stare down the proverbial gun-barrel instead of allowing us to blissfully play card games and watch ball. Believe it or not, scientists are some of the most ignorant, foolish people on the face of this planet because they will ostracize and shun you if you diligently seek out the answers to these types of questions. Have fun.

Read the Bible and believe.

Well said.

Which one?

Then have some reasoning, friend.

I was a bit jaded by those two fedora shitposting threads.

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Just realized that already posted these.

However, read the New Testament first, so you can appreciate finding Christ throughout the Old Testament. The, I'd reccomend "The Case for Christ". The book goes over all the overwhelming evidence we have that Jesus existed, and that He was the Jesus of the Bible. I know you've already been told, but you should Begome because God loves you, not for personal gain. Not to be rude, but joining a religion for personal gain is the most Jewish thing I've ever heard, goober.

I've not seen any proficies specific enough to make think they were divinely inspired, do you have some examples?

These may be nice, but how is this an argument for the Christian God being the deity?

This does lead one to think. They certainly seem to have believed fully what they were preaching. What about the many other sects that died for their beliefs though? Many other people other than Christians have stood by their beliefs through death.

And spirituality and mysticism have not?

Let us assume that God is requisite. Now why do you say it is the Christian God? The obvious answer to me would seem i that is what you were raised with or what has always surrounded you. Our ancesties converted to Christianity because it was more attractive than their traditional cults, especially in the Roman world where spirituality had largely died out in the urban centers and new cults popped up all the time.

If I agreed with more of the spirit of Jesus' teachings I would find it much easier to let myself overcome my reason. I feel like I will have to deny a lot of the virtues I want to uphold such as strength and honor. The turn the other cheek and love your neighbor sort of philosophy doesn't appeal to me at a baser level.

Please do not post Turkaphobic pictures

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Not true. Greco-Roman culture is the root of Western thought. Christianity was born of Rome and Greco-Romanized as it grew.

Why should I disregard my logic for something that isn't as logical? I like Christianity for pragmatic reasons and I would never encourage someone now towards atheism, as I did in the past, but I can't make myself disregard my own reason so easily.

I don't know if I'd say it's the best system of thought in the world, but it's what we've got and it's better than the alternative. That alternative being atheistic liberalism, ending in the collapse of modern society and the Islamization of large swaths of what is now Western territory.

Hinduism or Buddhism have no tradition in Europe. Although Hinduism is derived from the same roots as Western pagan religions. I pragmatic reasons to support Christianity and to be involved in the Church, I just haven't found anything yet to make me actually believe in it. Just because I like the idea if something doesn't mean it's true.

Yes, this is what I would think I would need to do. Push my reason to the back of my head and just go with it. It's hard though, since I feel often disagree with what I hear preached on an individual level.

Which West or which type of Christianity? I don't understand what you mean.

I do in a subtle manner. I don't just go spouting it off, but to individuals I'm closer friends with yes. I have resolved not to lie about believing in God to any girl I could potentially marry again. I did in my last relationship, I sort of dig myself in a hole I couldn't get out if.

Why must anything happen to us after we die other than we biodegrade? Longing for an afterlife isn't something I feel and won't help to convert me.

These are perfectly rational questions to ask, yet why haven't we been able to come up with definitive solid answers? There is a knee-jerk reaction against these types of questions, they are seen as taboo by society because it forces us all to stare down the proverbial gun-barrel instead of allowing us to blissfully play card games and watch ball. Believe it or not, scientists are some of the most ignorant, foolish people on the face of this planet because they will ostracize and shun you if you diligently seek out the answers to these types of questions. Have fun.
How are these arguments for God? I think UFOs are probably military craft that were not privy too. Ghosts and spirits, I'm not convinced they exists. Even if they do, science is the figuring out of things we don't understand. There could be a perfectly rational exploration, we just don't know it yet. Maybe we've got some sort if soul that is separate from the physical body, does that mean the Christian God must exist? Before we what lightning was we thought it must be direct intervention from God.

Go back to steppe plz turk

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Ethnophyletism is a heresy, please do not be unkind to our greatest allies

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The thing is you aren't logical nor rational. The world without God is a huge, illogical contradiction. The rejection of Christianity also implies mental gymnastics that make it (the rejection) irrational. Your godless fantasy crumbles the moment you stop making "magical jumps". The moment you start to be really observing.

What you call "my own reason" is just your retardation and materialism. You don't know what "rational" means. You don't know what "logical" means. You think they mean "materialistic and atheistic" when those two tings are the most retarded and irrational things in the world. Of course God is irrational when you define reason as "atheistic". But of course, you feel smart and ENLIGHTENED by throwing round buzzwords you don't even understand, like "reason" and "logic". You think you are the RATIONAL MESSIAH, which in the CURRENT YEAR OF LE EPIC """SCIENCE""" finally has true knowledge after the DARK AGES and has finally defeated the stupid religious cavemen… please, user. The saints, the fathers of the Church, the theologians…. they are a million times smarter and more oserving than you and me. If you try to explain why you consider christianity to eb "irrational", some fat monk 1600 years ago has written a 458976 pages writting abou why you are wrong.

Is that your problem? I understand your viewpoint but consider for a moment that we are all sinners, the doctor can't realistically be that much better than the crack whore. I mean, you don't know if the crack whore is genuinely trying to improve her life through desperate circumstances, and you don't know if the doctor abuses children or pummels his wife's face in every night.

As to why you should love your enemy, the same reasoning applies, how do you know his heart? And beyond that, suffering builds character, if he persecutes you, that experience may be treasure, it might teach courage, it could even spur one on to do great things.

Turn the other cheek, however, is not a command to be taken advantage of. I would ask that you just leave that one be, and come back to it later when your faith and understanding are increasing.

I recommend you studying history. Pic a good book about middle ages, byzantines, Roman Empire, the colonial age. What is your interest?

I'm currently reading Lost to The West: The Forgotten Byzantine Empire that Rescued Western Civilization. I'm also currently listening through the Byzantine history podcast. I'm on episode 98.

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I can't tell if this is how you actually think or if you're pretending to be this way to get me to stop considering Christianity. Take examples from some of the guys earlier in the thread and don't attack me for legitimately wanting to believe in your religion, but now know how to make myself.

My current plan is to get a copy of the Bible, actually start reading it, read some David Bentley Hart, and maybe find a priest I like to discuss this with.

You can't deal with someone breaking your buzzword delusion, you can't stand someone pointing out your ignorance, pride, and empty claims. Other people don't deal wtih the real issue, which is you don't even know what you are talking about, you just use whatever sounds "smart" and "enlightened", without having a clue of what you are saying.

I attack you for what you are: an ignorant fool that has no problem labelling things as "irrational" without having a clue of what "rational" means. The fact that you want this or that does not change what you are. It doesn't make you immune to people pointing out your great, numerous mistakes and nonsense.

youtube.com/watch?v=XHnQueObrB8
fascinating times.

You haven't done any of these things. Ad hominem is not a good way to change someone's mind about something.

Please refrence specifics and refute what you think I am wrong about.

You're making claims without making any attempt to justify them. I'm not sure what I said to make you so angry. I came here to try and find rational proofs for the existence of the Christian God so I can more easily get myself to believe, not to piss people off. Some people have been helpful, you are just being outputting though.

Good link friend. You may enjoy some of these, I found them while looking for music to work to.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=lBRIy9tLp_8
m.youtube.com/watch?v=8azQn9L9h7E
m.youtube.com/watch?v=HOKK2U8Xypw

OP, I wish you would respond to my post just because I said earlier about how you needed to have hope, but I see now that you need some evidence/reasons.

Here's what i think you need to do user:

1.>I think the West needs Christianity to survive and I want to find a qt trad waifu. Also I'm autistic and need somewhere to make friends.

you need to go to church not because YOU need a qtpi trad waifu, or because it's the "heritage of the white race" (India and Ethiopia had churches before Sweden did). you need to go to church because you honestly love the Lord Jesus Christ and want to get closer to him. If you become a christian, you will be part of his bride and spirtual body, and any unfaithful partner or malfunctioning sell will hurt the husband/rest of the body. on a related note, if you want a Traditional waifu, on carnal matters look somewhere else. however, i will say that whatever you look for in her, you yourself better have. that means if you want a girl who will approach you, you need to be able to approach her. if you want a faithful lover (both to you and God), you need to be faithful to her and God. Poop will get tough, she might change and become less subservent, but if you KNOW God has lead you to each other, then you need to stick with her, and love her and any possible children you might have second only to God.

as much as you're going to hate this user, you could read every single book ever written about god, including the bible, but if you don't have faith, you can do nothing. Spirtuality comes before theology, and having a theological background but no faith is almost as bad as someone telling you about the grand canyon having only ever read about it. since you have a catholic background, i recomend saying a short chaplet like the Chaplet of the Infant Jesus of Prague, and really try to focus on SEEING and FEELING the Holy Family and baby Jesus in your minds eye. even without a chaplet, just focusing on an Icon or Statue (understanding they are only representations of the real thing) or reading about them in the Bible or stories about the saints and making an emotional connection with them is a great way to know God and his people using human means. Again though, always pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you.

I hope you i helped a little bit. May God Bless you, user, and if you do come to be a Christian, welcome home in advance.

The type of Christianity.

I have, by pointing out what buzzwords you use, how you don't know what they mean, and how you use them. By the way, add "ad-hominem" to the list of buzzwords whose meaning you don't know.

Etc etc."Rational", "logical", the words that atheists like to use because someone taught them that it's what da enlightened people say.

"Rational" means, for you, atheistic. So you want us to infer God from atheism. Otherwise, it wouldn't be "rational" and "logical". Instead of glorifying buzzwords, you could make some honest inner inspection and analyze the things you say. For example, you say that people just converted to Christianity because it looked nicer, because it was more "SPIRITUAL" in the urbal centers. When you say retarded things like those, not only you show you know nothing about Christianity, but that knowing nothing, you have no problem making the boldest of statements, which can be inmediately dismised with minimal thought about how there were already established religions including the former judaism and pagan religions. Second, nobody is going to suffer a terrible death for a convenience "conversion". Third, not a single early christian mentions the cause for conversion the retardation you propose, nobody says "I'm a christian because it's more spiritual! There are vibrations n' stuff". Fourth, Christianity does not base its legitimacy on some theories that sound nice. It bases its legitimacy on direct revelation from God on Earth, on prophecies and miracles. It is not a social club of niceness. It is not a set of practices. It is based on the divinity of Christ. For this, and probably a million more reasons, your theory is so weak and far fetched that I would be ashamed to say something like that in a desperate attempt to come up with some atheistic alternative, no matter how absurd and stupid it is.

Here is yet another example of the things you miss in your shortsightenedness: you mention how the suffering and death of the apostles and martyrs are not an argument for Christianity because other people have died for what they believed in other religions. You ignore that we use their suffering and death to prove they truly believed what they —saw—. Since they died and suffered from it, we know they didn't make up things, nor seek convenience, nor lie. The same way, we don't doubt that those who die for any belief truly believe in it. The only alternative then is that ALL the apostles were crazy lunatics who made up a HUGE fraud they themselves believed for no reason. But of course, for any REASONABLE person, considering their works, and reputation, and disciples, and writings, and the fact that they report in a direct way, this is madness.

I'll take this suggestion into account and mostly stick to the New estimate first. I don't want a trad waifu just for personal gain, I feel it's my duty to raise a good, upstanding, strong, and large family.i found Zig Forums around the age of 15, that's where this feeling comes from. It's been one of my strongest motivators for years now. /r/atheism on Reddit is why I became an atheist at 14, I'm 22 now for reference. In reference to the Jewish bit of your reply… my DNA did tell me I'm a few % Ashkenazi Jew.

From a purely emotional level, a lot of Christianity just come off as weak to me. It would probably be easier for me to accept if I didn't feel that way. For example, I know Pagan gods aren't real, but I would find it much easier to shut up my thinking and make myself believe in them. I like the strength and power those beliefs seem to exude as opposed to the meekness and mildness of Christianity. I wouldn't actually try becoming a pagan though because it's would hinder my life goals, even if it would be fun to LARP. If I could believe in Christianity the way the Byzantine soldiers did, or the way the conquistadors did it would be much easier to shut down that part of my brain telling me I know God isn't actually real.

Talking about reason and logic so much earlier in the thread, I realize now it's not just about that. It's that I also think I would have to compromise some of the values I strive towards. I like the values these European Christian nations seemed to uphold. That's why I want to check out Orthodox churches, not because I care about specific points of theology, but because I want to LARP as a Byzantine.

Hopefully that isn't too rambling for you to understand. I'm phone posting and some of these feelings I don't fully understand myself yet.

Jesus' teachings aren't a philosophy, they are the commandments of God himself, your creator. Who do you think you are to claim you know better than the creator of the whole cosmos? Are you infallible? You need to humble yourself and let go of some of these 'virtues'. If virtues are objective then you are not the one to decide what is virtue and what is vice.

Plus, you probably don't understand what it means to 'turn the other cheek'.
Read the Bible and then read the Church Fathers. I'll pray for you.

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Everyone who worships god in the orthodox church has already separated themselves from the orthodox church as an institution, same thing I see happening with the few remaining good Catholics in regards to the papacy or Roman Catholic Church.
Real Christians today don't have many places to go, whereas the 'Christians' have the whole world very open and accessible to them.

Actually i'd say all of today's contemporary scientists are just as clueless to the inner-workings of this world as say, your average redneck hillbilly would be, which is a slight insult on the hillbilly since he's at least privy to the basic under-linings of life; eat, have sex and procreate, digest your food, take a dump and die, while the intellectuals and people in academia are too sexually frustrated and deviant to realize even that.
I can see why this is a big dilemma honestly, since I did find myself in the same spot before; who's telling the truth, the childless weirdo in the white lab-coat or the childless weirdo in the black robes? I chose to stick to with the guy on Animal Planet and Discovery because I was awestruck and in love with all the fantastic sights I got to see there on the television like the tropical rain-forests and all the animals in them, the coral reefs, the strange and otherworldly galaxies in space etc, with much more and the same in books and magazines.
But as I got older I realized that these people presenting all this were mostly jerkoffs and opportunists, who lived so compartmentalized in their own fields that they would never ever get the big picture, so I had to move on to people that did, since i felt like my reason was being denied; as how is it that in a world where everything worked perfectly like clockwork, in biological organisms, chemistry, the atmosphere; aquatic life having it's breeding tied to moon cycles and whatever, did the books and professors make it out to seem so soul-crushingly ugly, disgusting and sterile.
So I began looking into engineering and the occult, and what a ride it was, they both got me believing in God.
Engineering's important because it sorta beats into your head that there's rules that can't be cut around (and electrical engineering had another profound affect but that's beyond my shitpost), and the occult lets you know that there's a big group or section of people in society that does believe in metaphysical concepts and 'otherworldly' realities and many of them doing so out of exclusively pragmatic, non-spiritual motives. So this period would've obviously been the one where I started believing in 'aliens' and spirits and blood ties and magical rituals, etc. Obviously i had a choice to stay in this world of 'Witches' and 'warlocks' and 'the galactic federation of light' and 'starseed-reptilian-bunkers' and whatever, but i wasn't satisfied and by this point through divine providence and intuition, I found out that God exists. And it's still not the end of the road for me in-fact because I know next to nothing about any of his workings but I do know that people have an extremely negative reaction to the whole Christianity deal so,

It's all up to you OP to make the decision for yourself.

If you want to be pragmatic about the whole thing and find yourself a qt and get yourself a nice family and fight for your race; the doors are all open to you and you'll definitely get your opportunity to stand for what you think is right, and if you have no personal integrity there's even shortcuts to it through lodge doors and executive success programs, but if you value your soul and aren't quite sure about what you're gonna do after you die, then you have the choice between continuing your pursuit for this world or turning your heart and your mind towards a higher power, who could shed some light on what you're actually looking for and what you might need instead, and the power in question's actually quite forthcoming and will genuinely help you out, but he will test you; and the trials are no walk in the park because he can even go as far as denying you a qt wife or a house or kids if he sees it fit in the set of circumstances you're in, so it's not for everybody.

That is pretty much the point. We're all stupid here. I'm stupid. You're stupid.

Stupid man falls for stupid serpent's lies and now everybody dies. Now stupid man does this to other stupid man. Stupid leaders tell stupid people stupid things and everyone ends up dead because their ideas are stupid and never last. Don't think you're not stupid and put your faith in someone who isn't stupid.

Pathetic. I do pray that you will rediscover your faith in God soon OP.

Let me tell you, one way or another, the values you strive toward as clearly a bit of an alt-rightist, will have to be compromised to some extent. This isn't a bad thing though, you can still be right wing, but some of the things you now believe are incredibly important to ditch and to trust in God instead.

You've become a vigilante, which is good in a way, but now you need to learn to let God be the vigilante. It doesn't seem like it should work, but consider that the world is too corrupt, winnie the poohed up and evil for you to fix it on your own, if you try to fix it, you'll just end up slaying a lot of people who could have repented if you gave them the chance.

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I think the LARPing aspect is something you're going to have to do away with. Ultimately if you're a Christian, you're going to have to believe in God, and believe that Jesus Christ is God and died for our sins. We have rebelled against God and cannot be good on our own, we need a God to cleanse us from our imperfections and immoralities. Believing that is where you need to start, from there you can try to understand and make sense of the rest of Christianity. Right now the important thing is for you to believe in the basics. But if you don't believe in Christ, then trying to be a Christian is an absurd LARP. If you don't believe in God, then everything in life is an absurd LARP. A God-less universe is an utter joke, morality and purpose can only make sense if there is a purpose and morality that governs our universe.

You're a power hungry nihilist trying to justify the Logos without God.
You worship titans. The titan is only as "righteous" as he is strong. By that logic you should worship the kikes. They not only are much more powerful than any group right now but they agree 100% with you.
I truly hate your kind more than any men on the Earth.

I can empathize with you on that. But remember how faithful servants of God acted in the Bible, speak to them neither good nor bad. I may pray Psalm 94 instead. Or at least, pray that they may stop subverting themselves.

It may help you to look at the bible and church teachings as a source of knowledge.

There are many secular studies showing the correlation between pre-marital sex and divorce rates (that's not to mention out-of-wedlock births and stds), the highly negative effects of divorce on children and other such things.

Christianity has been against these things for centuries, long before people were 'rational' and had 'proof'.

Do you think it's more likely that thousands of years ago people were smart enough to figure out the truth that science is know uncovering?
Or that Christianity is the Truth, given to us by God, who is infinitely smarter than we will even be and has taught us these morals because he loves his creation and wants what is best for us?

I had this same problem, for a while. In my case I was already Christian, and then I got red pilled. For a while, I felt like Christianity was weak. However, here's what I discovered: It's not really weakness, its love.

That is the underpinning of the entire Christian life. Love for God, and love for your brother. So, with this in mind, let's break down one of the things that is probably giving you trouble: Turn the other cheek/love your enemy.

The reason you should love your enemy is because, ultimately, they were created by God, just as you were, and so they are your brother. A lost brother, just as they are a lost son to God, but still a brother to you and a son to God. God loves them, and you should also, because they are your brother. So you should seek to put up with the problems they give you, and to try to help them and make them see the error of their ways, rather than fighting them, because they are your brother, God's son, and so they ought to get your love.

The other thing to keep in mind though, is that the "turn the other cheek thing' is not absolute. If you love your enemies, you should also love your friends and your family, and people in general. Something this means harming or killing your enemies, and this is acceptable if done for the right reasons. (There are various instances of people being killed in the bible with the express blessing of God.) But the important thing is that you are not fighting them out of hatred, or because they are your enemy, or to get revenge or even justice. You are fighting them because of your love for others, and because, despite your love for them, this is ultimately what is better for all involved.

Does this make sense on how this isn't weakness?

Convince you to believe in god? For pragmatic, not spiritual reasons? You are headed in the opposite direction of God, friend. You will eventually return, but you will suffer your insincerity as a manifestation of worldly lives. I urge you to look within, now.

Someone comes here looking for help and guidance, trying to figure things out, and you say you hate him.

How is this good witnessing? How is this Christ-like behavior?
Genuinely, I'm curious. How do you think this helped bring him towards Christ?

zeitun-eg.org/zeitoun1.htm

Check this link

As you've likely already gleened, this board is not the right place for such questions, despite some of the good answers anons have made an effort to provide you with. This place is about gawking at degenerate culture from a broad Christian perspective, and some inter-denom debates. Please do come back after you've joined a church.

To reiterate what I said to , what good does it do to try to turn someone away who seems to be genuinely seeking answers?

How does telling this guy to leave the board help him to find Christ? I mean, I agree that he should join a church, but there is no reason he can't also talk to us here also as he is figuring this stuff out.

One more thing user: If you want to see a more militant side of God/Christianity, I would recommend that you read the Book of Judges in the Old Testament. There is a lot of God taking violent action against people in that book.

Just don't forget the teachings of Christ on the importance of love and mercy, for both friends and enemies. Remember that what God does in the Book of Judges is ultimately done out of love for all people. The teachings of Christ and the things happening in the Book of Judges help to contextualize each other and give a Christian perspective on violence, so you need to take them both together.

Because this board is not an outreach program to non-believers, and the inter-denom bickering could do more harm than good.

(Warning first para is prologue skip if you want)

OP if you're still here, there have been some useful snippets amongst of a lot of bits and pieces in what has been posted so far but all put far less succinctly than I am sure you would liked. First things to say, I hope this guy >>660529 didn't put you off. I would totally see where he's coming from, given we get a lot of very childish, snotty and ignorant fedora types asking the same sorta stuff but who refuse to listen or engage with any of a christanons points. BUT, despite your larping starting point and Zig Forums background (we'll get to that in a sec) I must say that, while you may have mistakenly categorised rationality/reason and how disparate it is from Christianity (again I'll get to that in a sec) I must say that you've have not exhibited any of the aforementioned attributes that eventually provoke responses, and deservingly so, from that user, and reading the thread it seemed wholly overblown and uncalled for given your mild manner in here so far, which as indicated has been much more pleasent than a lot of aethiestic/pagan fedoras who come here to bait and troll with no intention of listening.

Now, next thing to say is that as has already been indicated you're coming at this from a completely wrong angle, and hopefully you understand this (and hence why you're here asking these questions). And by the wrong angle I mean the larping/faking it, cos-it's-good-for-the-survival-of-the-west type thing ofc. I'm not from Zig Forums so I can't relate, but if I were and didn't believe in God I guess I might do the same as a last resort. But as already said you MUST understand that you cannot go on seeking a genuine faith in and relationship with God, even if you eventually do believe in him, for this materialistic gain. There's a couple more things to say, including a three-tier schema for what you need to do in order to believe that I think should be self explanatory and logical and help you along your way, as well as a couple of clarifications on the central aspect of Christianity that you may/may not have wholly grasped given your stated background.

In terms of the three tiered approach I mentioned above, the first is:

You need to cross this before we can get to Christianity. You need to be convniced of the plausibility of theism, as it's classically been concieved, in order to get Jesus and the bible. Pic in was a major trigger in this for me, and shook me deeply when I first came across it. And here's where the thing about rationalilty and reason comes in, user. See how the conclusion that God exists was reached through reason? Through logic? You may have been working on the assumption that 'rationality' is an athestic concept like the triggered user assumed you did, or you may not have. But whether you believe that anyway whatever, clearly it's not actually the case that 'rationality' can only operate within an athestic framework as pic and countless other arguments demonstrate. In the western tradition philosophy was known as theology's handmaiden. Belief in a creator God of the attributes Aquinas outlines in pic was commonly held up until fairly recently in history because it was so bleedin' obviously the case as demonstrated through our God-given reasoning. To say otherwise would have been (and today to theists is) simply irrational - to deny a creator of creation - to say the universe popped into existence from nothing - THAT is irrational. You can look up stuff to see how poor most atheist arguments are. Debates with people like Bill Craig are often good ones (at first, they get tedious and are all the same once you've seen a couple).

Also notice how I refered to our reasoning as God-given? I don't say this by accident. That we even refer to rationality apart of God is a joke. Our comprehension, our reasoning, our conciousness, our ability to reflect and conceptualise is part of what it means to 'be made in the image of God.' Related, in the thread user mentioned the Logos, who is Christ, who is the 'word' of God, the reason, the first principle. Something else for you to look into.

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Finally, on rationality, and arguments for the existence of God, is the intelligibility of the universe. Nature is known as God's second book. The fine tuning, the design, the rigid order and predictableness ('uniformity') in nature. You may have understood the concept of 'rationality' as that pertaining to the framework of the scientific method, anything deducted outside of which is 'not rational.' If this is the case, please look into why you're mistaken about this conception of rationality also and realise your error. In summary, though, the scientific method, as I'm sure you're aware, is about making hypotheses from the observabale natural world that, ideally, we can verify through repreated testing to observe results and affirm a conclusive theory. Because it is limited to observable phenomona, the scientific method is limited to making statements about the observable (natural) world. Therefore the scientific method cannot make conclusive statements or theories about pheonomona that lie outside the observable natural world i.e. the supernatural including God. As we've already seen in pic in we can be perfectly rational using philosophical and purely logical methods which do not invoke the scientific method. People who believe that the scientific method is the only legitimate way of obtaining truth about the word subscribe to a philosophy (often unknowingly) called scientism. Because God is transcendant (as well as immiment) the scientific method by default cannot and should not be looking for God himself as an entity in the natural world. Having said this, to theists who are already aware of the existence of God, the beauty, complexity and vastness of the natural world spell G-O-D was here as crystal clear as winnie the pooh day. Hence again a) is why nature has been described by some as God's second book and b) again simply from the observation of our universe and experience of our existience, God's own existence is literally screaming out at us all. Another thing to note is that in terms of the philosophy of science, it is generally accepted that the scientific method cannot make definitive claims about what is true. Many people do not understand this and operate on the 'scientismist's' assumption that the scientific method is actually the only way to validly invoke a truth claim. Nevertheless, contrary to what the scientismist says, the best is can actually do is 'we haven't falsified this theory…yet. ' So again just another bit of food for thought if you were coming from this relating your concern for 'throwing rationality out the window if coming to Christ' or however you phrased it..the rationality of the scientific method is not all encompassing…AND YET..if it weren't for God's order in creation, his design, his infusing of uniformity into our natural world..we wouldn't even be able to develop the scientific method!! (And exist as we do also, lol but besides the point). Our reason is God-given, and there is none apart from him.

My how I've babbled, and haven't even mentioned the other two tiers yet. Essentially though, look into the arguments for God's existence. There are a number of philosophical ones (as per Aquinas above, Ontological is another one) and scientific ones (teleological and kalaam cosmological). Then there's the moral argument which was crucial in my coming to all this and the conclusions of the argument made acknowledging his existence an absolute necessity as a means to avoid inevitable insanity/life-long dispair/suicide. But it may not be such a biggie for you.

The other two tier bits should be a bit shorter and incoming shortly..

If you attempt understanding the thing you quotes, instead of trying to shoehorn as many big smart worDS into the pretentious monstrosity you have written, you will see that I do not complain about OP not listening or engaging. I complain about his ignorance and the buzzwords he throws around.

You asked in another post 2 questions - 'gimme proofs for God' (consider this awnswered - see posts above) and then 'once you gimme proofs for God tell me how it's the God of Christianity.' This is where we get to this.

The next thing, then, after being convinced of theism, is the reliability of the New Testament as a historical account, including the Gospels. Written by eyewitnesses, or people who knew and were writing down accounts for eyewitnesses relatively (for ancient history) soon after they happened (indeed relative to sources for other bits of ancient history the Gospel's being written down between 30-50 years after the fact is actually incomparable to other historical sources which are normally from a much longer timeframe after the event their describing). Then you have the book of Acts and the epistles. 1 Corinthians 15 I think it is has what has been recognised as an early Christian creed with the essentials of the faith, estimated to have been developed and affirmed within the first few months to few years of Christ's death. Christ claimed he was and was crucified for claiming to be God, something no other prophet dared do. He and fulfulled numerous prophecies of the OT which you can read up about. We have more copies of ancient manuscripts for NT than for any other ancient text and they all align with each other pretty much perfectly and, where they don't it is in the minutest of details as to render the differences completely insignificant resulting in unchanged and firmly affirmed doctrine.

Coming round to understanding the reliability of the NT is the second tier of the approach. The third is that, now you have that in the bag, you need to be convinced of Jesus being ressurected.

Pretty much all scholars, secular or otherwise, affirm that at the very least, the following as comprising the minimal historical facts: that Jesus was a real historical person, had a bunch of followers, was crucified, his tomb was found empty three days later, and his followers claimed to see him and/or had experiences of interacting with him following his crucifxion in his new glorified body. Note they don't say he was actually ressurected, only that his followers claimed to see him or were convinced they saw him alive after his death.

Cool, so now we got those basics down, we just have to eliminate the possiblities of why the tomb was found empty, given it is by concensus considered historical fact. *Goes and does research* Hmm, would seem that any of the alternative theories to explain the tomb being empty that don't involve him being ressurected by God are, in light of my new found belief in an immiment God who would be perfectly capable of performing a miracle like raising someone from the dead, surprisingly thin. Therefore he was ressurected as the Son of God in a glorified body by the father in the process defeating death and making good on his promise for eternal life. See also the evidence for the shroud, which according to all indications is simply miraculous.

Cool, welcome to Christianity.

And this came up a couple of times but I don't think it was emphasised enough - we use the fact that the apostles died violent deaths for dying what they believed in which add's to Christianity's credibility. You say, 'sure but there are martyrs for lots of types of beliefs, just because people die for it doesn't make it true.' But the difference between the apostles and all other martyrs is that they were dying for something, a person, the risen Christ, they claimed to have seen with their own eyes and spoke to and touched and interacted with. Other martyrs were just dying for what someone or something else had told them, (like the fact that Christ is risen, which is admirable but not extraordinary) and not for experiencing the thing themselves. This adds great weight to the claims of the NT in the Christian's mind.

But seriously m8, there's more. Something that you're clearly not aligned with yet is your relationship to God. Your preference for this strenth and claiming it's not in Christianity. Seriously, God is all powerful, you do not get greater strength than his. As well as all those other things in that pic God is by definition morally perfect, holy, set apart, compared to you and me who are puny minded and fallible. You need to understand that although created for good and by nature are good, due to the fall we have inclination to sin and regularly of our own devices transgress God's law. You speak about disdaining the crackwhore and honouring the productive member of society - thing is - you've no idea of the circumstances, the opportunities, the contraints, the weaknesses and strentgths of judgement or indeed altruistic or corruptive habits and the rightous or sinful decisions either of them may have taken to get where they are. You have NO idea, and so are in no position to say. Only God knows all that, and knows their intensions and their hearts, so only he is fit to judge in the end. We can call out sin when we see it fair and square, and indeed admonish the sinner with a view to seeking to help (love) them, but we cannot pass ultimate judgement. You need to understand this and understand and get over your pride and humble yourself and acknowledge that you're not all knowing. That you've sinned, and are not perfect and therefore need to repent and in need of forgiveness in order to be reconciled to God through Christ. We're all capable of great evil, don't under estimate yourself and judge others too harshly. We're capable of great things with God and terrible things without. Another thing to mention which haven't seen in this thread yet but thought I would is the Christian concept of love, agape, charity, which is not an emotion but an act of the will, willing the good of the other, and revolves around sacrifice of yourself for said other. Another thing to look into. Finally, as other anons already indicated turn the other cheek is not what it first appears so there's that to look into too (some author walter or waltman or something had a book called 'the third way' there's a PDF extract out there about the passage and this).

Final note, is do all this while praying and reading your bible and doing research. Faith, which can mean trust, and is 'the evidence of things not seen,' is a gift from God. Petition him for it, even if it feels silly at first. Excercise your will to believe in him like a muscle and ask for it. Speak to him with whatevers on your mind, as a friend, as a father, as the creator and sustainer of your very existence, even if you're frustrated, but do try to give thanks also and pray for others as well as yourself, as I'm sure you have much you can thank him for as we all do. Pray pray pray. Start with the Lord's prayer and contemplate what you're saying and why. See >>653598 for some resources to start reading with and getting more infos.

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Except you're wrong. This board DOES have an outreach element to it. It is specifically stated in the rules of the board:

"4. Non-Christians are welcome to post here, and are encouraged to ask questions in good faith. But they cannot proselytize non-Christian beliefs or post antagonistic or otherwise scandalous material.

If you are a non-Christian, you are more than welcome to create a thread asking questions specific to you…"

That is exactly what this user has done. He has created a thread for himself, and has been participating in discussion regarding his specific situation/challenges with believing.

As far as inter-denom bickering, I saw a little at the beginning of the thread, but other than that it seems fine. It's not like it has derailed the thread or caused a lot of anger.

sorry if my writing isn't coherent m8, I'm no expert, I just wanted to try to post something informative and constructive to counter the pointlessly negative posts by certain anons potentially scaring away an inquring potential convert :^)
indeed if you'd attempted to read my post instead of getting uppity for no reason, you will see that I did not say your response was complaining about OP not listening or engaging, I said responses like yours are normally provoked by people who don't listen or engage and made it clear that I could see he wasn't one of them.And clearly I had read your posts and tried to respond with them in mind and constructively expand on them (which your quoting of his buzz words of RATIONALITY LOGIC ENLIGHTENMENT CURRENT YEAR which was effectively a pointless piss take straw man full of assumptions) by my dedicating a massive admittedly rambling post trying to help the man see how he should see and use the idea of rationality in light of theistic and Christian thought! Jheeze bud if you haven't got anything positve to say why bother being such a grumps! LIGHTEN UP

I stand corrected.

OP here. I'll get around to responding to everyone eventually. I've been super busy with my move.

I went to church on Sunday. The closest Catholic church to me is awesome. People actually were wearing sports coats and I don't think I saw a single t-shirt. I've only ever been near laid back Catholic churches. The building itself is impressive. It is very Gothic looking. I really enjoyed the mass I went to. Honestly, I'm looking forward to going back next Sunday more than anything else. I went to the coffee and donuts and chatted with some older folks. I'm kinda socially awkward and I can usually hold a conversation better with old people than your average young person. I also got a Bible today, pick related.

Gotta go back to work now. Trying to catch up.

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OP here. I just skimmed the post your referencing. I actually enjoy the way it was written. The post was pleasant to read. When I have more time I will sit down and respond to all of these. Everyone else in the thread has been helpful except for you. My goal really is to believe in God. I just have to figure out how to do that.

Ayyyy, I had actually been meaning to get that one myself before picking up this leatherbound beauty. Good choice. Glad to see you have a particularly good parish, many of us here aren't so blessed as to have strong catholic communities irl.
Also, just to check, PLEASE TELL ME YOU DID NOT TAKE COMMUNION BEFORE CONFESSION.

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I take communion every time I go to church. I haven't been to confession in maybe 8 years. I'll look up when confession is and go this week.

Ok so you didn't know this so the guilt on your part is lessened, slightly, but taking communion in a state of mortal sin is grave sacrilege, the highest form there is. That host is God, body, blood, soul, and divinity, and the 138 confirmed eucharistic miracles of the Church, the Miracle of Lanciano in particular, testify to that
>Now this I ordain: not praising you, that you come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all I hear that when you come together in the church, there are schisms among you; and in part I believe it. For there must be also heresies: that they also, who are approved, may be made manifest among you. When you come therefore together into one place, it is not now to eat the Lord's supper. For every one taketh before his own supper to eat. And one indeed is hungry and another is drunk. What, have you not houses to eat and to drink in? Or despise ye the church of God; and put them to shame that have not? What shall I say to you? Do I praise you? In this I praise you not. For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread. And giving thanks, broke, and said: Take ye, and eat: this is my body, which shall be delivered for you: this do for the commemoration of me. In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. For as often as you shall eat this bread, and drink the chalice, you shall shew the death of the Lord, until he come. Therefore whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of the chalice. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you, and many sleep. -1 Corinthians 11:17-30
Profanation of our Lord's body is a mass epidemic among the Church simply because many Catholics either confess rarely or confess poorly, omitting some mortal sin as if the Judge can't see their crimes and thereby invalidating the entire confession. Remember, until the time you come to truly believe in God and recieve his forgiveness, you are cut off from his mystical body, his Church, by your own volition. If you don't truly believe in God, work on that first, God is patient and will bear with you until you truly return to him, but your first priority should be to learn to believe in God fully, not confess to a God you don't as of yet believe in. And, as always, we are at your disposal for that task. Never feel embarassed about not taking the Eucharist, most Catholics need to learn that there is a time not to do so, just be thankful that there is someone to actually reprimand you for this crime.
Now, all that unpleasantry aside, how are you doing so far on the coming to the faith front; any problems that have been nagging you that we can help with?

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Someone earlier wrote about believing being like flexing a muscle. It takes practise and it's hard at first, but it'll get easier. I'm trying, I've tried praying a few times. I'm going to keep trying that and keep trying to open myself up. I'm going to try and make myself friends from the church and join some church organization. I think if I can get myself around people who believe it'll be easier. I'll go through the posts later and give detailed thought to them after work and dinner.

Jesus portrayed the growth of faith as the growth of a plant; starting from the most minuscule of seeds, but, with patience, growing into a mighty tree. Remember, with the internet you have the entire deposit of the Church's wisdom at your fingertips. My recommendation would be to read the works of some great saint, someone who's already become a mighty tree. I would highly recommend that you pick up a pdf of St. Augustine's Confessions, just read a few pages and see what you think.

I can also write endless compliments and pretentious walls of text with no substance. But I prefer to tell you the truth instead, which is really useful.

You are like a woman: unable to take criticism wihout having an emotional outburst, demonizing whoever points out your ignorance, your retarded buzzwords, your "enlightment" LARPing. You don't address a single point I made, so don't pretend your goal is any other thing than to feel smart and enlightened.

"You know, my dearest brethren. And let every man be swift to hear, but slow to speak, and slow to anger. For the anger of man worketh not the justice of God. Wherefore casting away all uncleanness, and abundance of naughtiness, with meekness receive the ingrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if a man be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he shall be compared to a man beholding his own countenance in a glass. For he beheld himself, and went his way, and presently forgot what manner of man he was. But he that hath looked into the perfect law of liberty, and hath continued therein, not becoming a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work; this man shall be blessed in his deed. And if any man think himself to be religious, not bridling his tongue, but deceiving his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one's self unspotted from this world." -1 James 1:19-27

biblehub.net/search.php?q=vipers

Don't you think it's odd your the only one who thinks he's a viper? He's a normie, of course he isn't going to be mired in buzzwords and entangled in poor arguments. Your wrath, the wrath of man, does nothing to help in the matter and James 1 explains why. If you want to patiently edify like the epistles say then you are welcome, but if you're just going to resort to flinging insults then you aren't welcome and won't be getting another response.
newadvent.org/summa/3158.htm
>Anger, as stated above (Article 1), is properly the name of a passion. A passion of the sensitive appetite is good in so far as it is regulated by reason, whereas it is evil if it set the order of reason aside. Now the order of reason, in regard to anger, may be considered in relation to two things. First, in relation to the appetible object to which anger tends, and that is revenge. Wherefore if one desire revenge to be taken in accordance with the order of reason, the desire of anger is praiseworthy, and is called "zealous anger" [Cf. Gregory, Moral. v, 45.] On the other hand, if one desire the taking of vengeance in any way whatever contrary to the order of reason, for instance if he desire the punishment of one who has not deserved it, or beyond his deserts, or again contrary to the order prescribed by law, or not for the due end, namely the maintaining of justice and the correction of defaults, then the desire of anger will be sinful, and this is called sinful anger.
>Secondly, the order of reason in regard to anger may be considered in relation to the mode of being angry, namely that the movement of anger should not be immoderately fierce, neither internally nor externally; and if this condition be disregarded, anger will not lack sin, even though just vengeance be desired.

Not that user, but there was one time where I took the Body under mortal sin, but this was long ago and I confessed it. Am I forgiven? It still tears me up inside when I think about it and it honestly makes me want to die looking back on it. I don't want to ever profane the Lord by taking eucharist again. What should I do?
Polite sage for off topic question

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Are you really that dense? Do you really not see the point I'm trying to make? If the apostles, and saints, and fathers of the Church were here right now, you would be lecturing them anbout how terrible they are, and how shameful their wrath is.

I tell him the truth he doesn't want to hear. You seem to be more concerned about PR and tone policing meanie words that go beyond butterflies and rainbows.

It seems to me that you have no problem insulting and slandering me, hypocrite.

I expected the priest to be irate and start kicking my ass. I wish someone did

This actually happened to me.

In retrospect, I'm not really too surprised. I won't blame him for me not being more cautious however, should have gone into it fully aware of expectations or not at all (at least with him). I won't talk about being a victim here, since I should have done more to protect myself. Then again, I also really can't recall him telling me about not taking communion beforehand, or admonishing me afterwards. Near as I can remember, outside of the service itself we only talked about how much we respectively liked the sermon afterwards on the drive back. I do remember that I found out the greater detail of the error from another source, later on.

In any event, and to my main point, I suspect accidental or ignorant communion participation is much more common these days than it had been in the past. A lot more worldly people out there who don't know anything about Christianity, mixed with loose people like him actually inside it, is a bad combination that could cost souls.

Son, im sorry to break it to you, but calling a potential convert a retard on the internet dosen't actually make you a saint.

It's the truth, he is being an ignorant retard. Maybe you should go back to reddit, where people will offer you a hugbox and you can talk about how pretty much every father of the church and saint is a meanie badie who said bad words.

page 12 of this image is such an indefensible mess of haphazard logical leaps that it boggles my mind how anyone can (re)post it in good faith

winnie the poohed