orthodoxytoday.org
Met. Kallistos Ware on Homosexual Marriage
Jackson Evans
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Chase Flores
Needs to be excommunicated then.
Ayden Brooks
No, he doesn't. The title of this article is a flat out lie at worst, misleading at best. I read the entire thing and Met. Kallistos didn't even mention homosexual marriage once.
This is probably the "defensive and reactive" stance he's talking about. He doesn't even condone sodomy:
"I am not suggesting here that we should bluntly set aside the traditional Orthodox teaching, but we do need to enquire more rigorously into the reasons that lie behind it."
-HIS WORDS
Whoever wrote this piece of trash needs to repent immediately.
Justin Reed
Which one of you guys wrote this
Wyatt Edwards
Yes, you are right that the article is somewhat misleading compared to what was actually said, yet I still find Bishop Ware's comments to be troubling. Just for example:
So he gives some plausible deniability by saying that we shouldn't "bluntly set aside the traditional Orthodox teaching," but exactly do we need to inquire about. Why do we need to enquure further into this subject beyond what has been already written so many times before? Why does he call the Church's concern whether a professed homosexual is engaging in sodomy prior to administering absolution and communion "undignified?"
This is a naive attitude at best, and atouses suspicion whether the end goal of such "experimentation" is not in fact to inject new teachings that are contrary to established doctrine.
Adding to the problem of the content of his foreward is the context of the publication. You do not have to look hard at the main content to ascertain that this is not exactly a solidly Orthodox publication.
So, yes, Bishop Ware does not outright say that the Church should have homosexual marriages, but he asks a lot of questions. Why is the Church so harsh toward the LGBTQ? Why does the Church treat a "homosexual committed to a stable and loving relationship" more harshly than repentant homosexuals by denying them absolution and communion? These are questions that we need to discuss and discuss and discuss… even though the answers to these questions are settled. And further he chooses to endorse this magazine, where it looks like the other authors go further than he does.
David Rodriguez
>In working with Father Louth on this project, we committed ourselves to listening as much as speaking—that is, to drawing in a variety of voices which represent the spectrum of opinions within the Orthodox Church on these controversial topics. Constructing a genuine dialogue proved to be no easy task. Many of us have become comfortable speaking only into our own echo chambers and, regrettably, some worthy potential contributors declined our invitation to participate. But the result is a nuanced issue that raises more questions than it answers. The editorial board thanks Father Andrew Louth for orchestrating this complex and challenging conversation.
Benjamin Morris
Orthodoxy seems to have a huge problem in picking its clergy among western converts. They have few people available so their quality is lacking.
The italian orthodox metropolite is a freemason, although very conservative, and in America I've seen plenty of pseudo-Orthodox priests who are still half protestant.
It seems they have no quality control at all.
Jeremiah Torres
Holy shit it's like hearing Jesuits and modernists during CV II, don't fell into the trap.
Don't give them even an inch to "enquire more rigorously", they'll create all sorts of misinterpretation, deconstruct every doctrine and cause chaos to the point no one is sure of the true teaching anymore.
It's the same deconstructivist marxist tactic used in academia. Don't even let them speak, they are bringing the plague.
Isaac Jackson
Just makes me thankful we are not our own patriarchate
Daniel Price
Unfortunately this is true, some of the new converts just can't accept Orthodoxy as is is and will try to modify it. The good thing is that the clergy don't hold any real power in the church.
Kayden Cox
Agreed. He would come out as pro sodomite "marriage" if he thought he could get away with it. He'll go full Puhalo one day no doubt.
And he's English; imagine my surprise. What is wrong with that country?
Eli Martin
Hmm, it seems as if the whole region is degenerate and causes everything to turn to shit and that it's not limited too protties and catholics.
Brandon Myers
They haven't been harsh enough, honestly.
Christopher Miller
Baptisms from pro-LGBT churches aren't considered valid even by economy and put in the same category as Mormon baptisms. I'd say that's harsh enough.
Luke Campbell
This.
St. John Chrysostom said that homosexual acts are worse than murder.
Cameron Bennett
Stopped reading there. Of course his opinion about sexuality is going to be twisted if he equates natural and procreative sex to unnatural gay-sodomy sex.
Grayson Myers
Not even muslim are safe, no matter how much propaganda they throw at us saying they are the answer to western degeneracy.
Also in less that 70 years see what happened to western buddhism, it's pitiful. Not even the worst cucked christian churches are so bad as western buddhists.
Gabriel Rodriguez
I don't remember who said it, but I remember a mystic saying that even demons are disgusted by fags.
Robert Price
It wouldn't be the first time that Kallistos Ware has said something heretical. He has a reputation for being liberal.
Elijah Jones
Which I find strange because his books are Orthodox to an O.
Evan Russell
he is also a universalist:
clarion-journal.com
Juan Thomas
Not really an uncommon view in Orthodoxy, to be honest. In all fairness, most of those who believe in universal reconciliation still remain pretty orthodox in other areas. Unlike in western christian denominations, universalism doesn't lead to interfaith services and meditation and "all faiths are the same" type thinking.
Isaac Morgan
And a Nestorian. It's really a shame that he hasn't been defrocked yet.
Connor Price
They are not, they seem to be to new converts but people who know more about theology realise they are wrong on many points as well in their general tone
Carter Murphy
What points? Because you described be exactly, I am new to the faith.
Aaron Mitchell
uuugggghhhhh ordodoxy is so dumb and liberal
vatican 2 doesnt count its somehow not an ecumenical council or something
cant wait for based black pope to have my guitar playing deacon face the front of the church
come rome ortholarpers
im sooooo freaking edgy
Jonathan Roberts
What exactly is "right" in Orthodox theology, though? Aside from "mere Christianity" kind of things, there isn't really overwhelming unanimity in Orthodoxy.
Christopher Wright
Stuff like that he uses the word panentheism to describe a position applicable to Orthodoxy, which when you realize that panentheism means whatever you want it too isn't that important. The main thing though is that he isn' incredibly rude in how he veiws others, which buttblasts hyperdoxy converts/reverts who are still mad at everyone else
Alexander Russell
Are you Orthodox?
Colton Brooks
i'd have to re-read it to go over everything, but one glaring example is how he says the filoque is just a grammatical problem. Tbh from what i remember he doesn't really say very much it is all very flowery and anglo. Read Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Michael Pomazansky instead, it is far more informative and in line with Orthodox tradition.
Gabriel Collins
Kind of. Oriental.
Kayden Nguyen
What do you mean "just a grammatical problem?" From memory, his book The Orthodox Church devotes decent space to the filioque and his position is that to say the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son is to give properties of the Father to the Son and misunderstand what distinguishes them. He may also point out that it depends on what you mean by "and the Son", but he in no way makes the filioque out to be just a matter of grammar.
Angel Hughes
ok, basically in Orthodoxy there are things that are subject to theological opinion and there are thing which are not. Some theological opinions while being acceptable are not what i would call representative of Orthodox tradition. And not everything which is dogma is in an ecumenical council. An example would be the essence energy distinction of palamas, it is not a part of an ecumenical council but is universally accepted by the Church.
Robert Reyes
He does in the Orthodox way which is his more recent book i belive
Bentley King
Brayden Lewis
That's basically what I meant. In doing an overview of Orthodoxy, I can see how Ware might not show what is representative of Orthodox tradition, but there is also a lot of room for different beliefs. I would consider Universal reconciliation, for example, to be an acceptable belief to hold. Although, I wouldn't consider it to be acceptable as a teaching of the church or as being "representative" of the church.
I don't know. Copts are still mostly literal creationists, so we don't really have a huge problem in the church with liberalism.
Gavin Mitchell
Makes me understand why all the Old Believers go to the Russian Far East, and at this rate I may join them
Samuel Garcia
Judas is undoubtedly hell bound as are many others. It's pretty straightforward and I'm pretty sure we accept that evidently in some of our hymns
Try finding one with apostolic succession
Liam Jones
The 5th ecumenical council condemns univeralism lad. It isn't an acceptable veiw for Orthodox to hold, although i know may incorrectly hold it.
Carter Price
Damn. It's frustrating to see someone so prolific in attracting converts to the church give a shaky position on something so important.
Cooper Gonzalez
They split for reasons more autistic than the calendarists. At least the calendarists had an excuse to split due to the encroachment of modernism.
Colton Miller
You sound like someone who thinks it is June 12th
Jace Walker
What's problematic about this? This is pretty correct.
Michael Cook
You sound like someone who hasn't read about the old believers.
Nice meme, but supporting the old calendar doesn't mean you schism from the Church. My parish is old calendar, and it isn't uncommon to find old calendar parishes in canonical jurisdictions. Something you should know unless you are an orthoprot.
Owen Cox
Can we please stop using this retarded term
Levi Richardson
try again
Carson Perry
remove modernists. this is the cancer that killed catholicism.
lol'd. based wikipedia
Aaron Mitchell
also you guys do know the difference between OLD BELIEVERS and those on the OLD (true) CALENDAR right? larpers
Luke Ross
just putting it out there: if you're on the new calender, you can't call anyone an orthoprot. i'm sorry, but you are the larper
Julian Perez
There's only one way to tell if your True Orthodox™, how do you feel about the hagiographies associates with Basil The New
cry more
Elijah Robinson
enlighten me, what are the fruits of the new calendar and modernism?
Nicholas Sullivan
Nicholas Johnson
Jayden Gutierrez
Mason Ramirez
i'm embarrassed for you
Brayden Nelson
Feel however you want, the new calendar will continue to be accepted by the right ruling bishops of the one holy catholic and apostolic church
Austin Nguyen
nah i'd rather be on the same page as mount athos and the rest of the real orthodox world. also, chasys draw ies is free and works better than paint for next time you want to troll
Daniel Baker
This obsession with a Greek peninsula and former Soviet territories too will pass
Brody Kelly
you mean
>>>/reddit/
i admire your dedication. are you doubling down because you know your on the papal calendar?
Isaac Taylor
no i don't
more like jesuit calendar, am i right fellow orthodox
Sebastian Green
To say that Christ was in any way separated from God is heresy. It's textbook Nestorianism.
Chase Watson
Kenosis is Nestorianism now?
Josiah Turner
You're confusing nature and will.
Joseph Wright
Reminder. Today is May 30th
Carter Roberts
I can't be bothered to check whether this is fake news or not >>660316 , but if it isn't someone better sack him quickly.
Jack Carter
Coming from the man who authored the standard book many people use to know the Orthodox Church.
Fix this, brothers.
Jeremiah Perez
It should be noted that even Patriarchs of Constantinople were deposed for being heretics, so no matter how high one's position in the Church, he can still err.
I'll reexamine his writings as well, but I believe he is more firm than that on the filioque.
Jeremiah Powell
...
Brody Cruz
He should know better. Homosexuality prohibited because it's a form of idolatry. Pride parades, several multi-million dollar media dedicated to them, public orgies, and LGBT people getting angered from a CEO buying Chick Fil A. Do I need to go any further?
Kayden Russell
So he's against bluntly setting aside traditional Orthodox teaching and in favor of doing it in a piecemeal fashion right?
Chase Parker
See
Jason Nguyen
I'm guessing he started looking at shemale porn
never trusted this guy
Matthew Parker
England ruins everything they touch.
Nicholas Thomas
Sounds like a sodomite enabler to me.
Adrian Taylor
Caleb Morris
Is there a TL;DR on that pic? I didn't even make it through one tenth before it got my stomach turning.
You know there is something seriously wrong when even Satan says "get a room".
Jack Martinez
William Gomez
Is homo celibacy just an orthodox thing? How does that account for "bisexuals?" Really the whole thing is just sexual perversion. No one is born that way and anyone can get over it with enough commitment. If you're diseased I can understand the need, but if you get over it and you have a loving wife why would the church keep you apart? Unless I'm completely misunderstanding this.
Robert Sanchez
The Eternal Anglo is merciless.
As far as I understand there are just two things: rightful sexual conduct and sinful sexual conduct.
You have the permission to do the first (but you don't have to), but are prohibited to do the second.
No fornication, no sodomy, no fapping.
If you think you'll only shag other guys, then stop doing that and you're fine.
If you still want to shag and not specifically someone of your sex, then marry someone you love and you're fine too.
Oliver Brooks
We're not all bad no bulli :'(
Cameron Sullivan
Saging because thread is low quality. Everyone stop for a second and read his actual statement here:
Read all of it if you want to have a good understanding on what he is saying.
Carter Bell
It's obviously not idolatry. Sodom and Gomorrah were not torched over idols.
Nicholas Butler
They made idols of themselves and their practices
Brandon Parker
This is a very good question. Ap. James writes: "How can you show me your faith if you don't have good deeds? I will show you my faith by my good deeds." (James 2:18, free translation) So you want to learn "right" Orthodox theology? Then go to people who can show their faith, for example to the monks at Mount Athos. Ask them and then you will see if there is "right" in Orthodox theology or if there is not.
There is one thing good Orthodox theologians should do: to "translate" the simple words of the Orthodox saints with modern words. But when an Orthodox theologian imagines that he can think new things, then the only thing he does is to create a pseudo-Ortodox theology whose only purpose is to create the illusion that there is not "right" Orthodox theology. But there is one because of Holy Spirit.
Aaron Hall
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. (Jude v.7)