Finally, I found what I was looking for about your so-called holy fire. A man who was willing to debunk it using Christian doctrine and the results are unsurprising. Though he's an atheist, he makes a smart analysis that it cannot be a miracle on the basis of the theology of miracles, something I'm not familiar with. Also Orthodox clerics contradict each other wildly with regards to this topic.
The core claim of the theological argument is John 20:29; "blessed are those who have not seen and yet believed." That faith ought to be by free will and not imposed upon people, or else it is worthless in the eyes of the Creator. Jesus even said that miracles are the product of faith when He healed the Centurion's servant, this is contrary to the Holy Fire fable, where the miracle happens repeatedly, on the same day, regardless of the attendees.
Frankly, I want to know why you haven't abolished something so clearly heretical and/or blasphemous. Is it something about your church hierarchy which allows all the charismatic nuts to freely roam and prey on believers?
If your faith depends on some firebending, then you should rethink your life. Also
Brandon Flores
Eyup
Sebastian Reed
I bet you're just salty that your pope can't summon it.
Robert Bell
seventh post best post
Jaxon Green
First off, I'm not Orthodox, and my faith in God hasn't been diminished. However the same cannot be said of the Orthodox Church, as cute as you think that dumb quip happens to be.
William Bennett
Do you have any experience with the Church of Christ denomination?
Aaron Smith
No, I'm Anglican, in fact I've never understood that Church. Everyone else calls themselves after a thing they think distinguishes them, Methodist, Anabaptist, Evangelical etc.
Why just Church of Christ? Is the thinking that it does what it says on the tin?
Samuel Wilson
I am and basically no one but retarded schizoids here care about such trivial things. Nobodies faith gets diminished by such reason, of one isn't a cretin (though even in that case, they think that its a massive conspiracy theory against Orthodoxy, so even they dont care about it). Though its funny that member of a meme """church""" like Anglicanism, uses atheist arguments against it. Especially considering that Anglicanism and Orthodoxy didnt had bad taste for eachother. Really makes one think.
Hudson Ortiz
But you see this is why I made the thread. Why doesn't one of your clerics clear this problem up? It can't be a miracle anyway, so if its not a miracle but its being passed off as one, then it's an embarrassment. Just like when some Mexican Mary statue starts bleeding grape juice, except when this happens to the Catholics, the Canons of the Church get involved and quickly debunk it if they can. Why haven't you done the same?
Zachary Torres
K.
Austin Perry
I mean, the Eucharist is a miracle that takes place every Divine Liturgy. So I have no issue with the Holy Fire taking place every Pascha.
Nolan Morales
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Parker Rodriguez
lol
Josiah Perry
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Jackson Morales
They did already.
uhuh Because, I repeat, nobody cares, because nobodies faith here depends on some firebending. Get a life, instead of using arguments of some fedora
Charles Bailey
nice
Ayden Cox
It kind of matters a lot more than you're making it out. God's commandment is that we not bear false witness, I have no problem accepting a miracle is occuring, and thank you for posting that video, because I truly would like to see differing views on the alleged miracle.
However, the fact that nobody cares is negligent, God's command is to bear witness to the Truth, that is what the Christ was, the Logos, the Word become Flesh. Anyone intentionally lying is far from God, so it matters, at least for the souls of the clergy who perform this ritual.
Ethan Stewart
Why should I ever trust the theological judgement of someone who gets something so entirely basic, in this case God's existence, wrong? I don't ask a librarian to fix my plumbing, I hire a plumber.
Leo Nelson
The mysteries of faith don't count as miracles. Miracle means unbidden supernatural occurence, it is no miracle in this sense of the word to be baptized in water, to eat bread or to be married.
Jordan Long
Fair point, fair point, I'd just like to get to the bottom of this because
Jeremiah Kelly
The librarian could be the best plumber in the world, and it would be your loss for not hiring him. Yes, you probably shouldn't hire the librarian, but if he has shown himself to be a good plumber, there is no reason not to hire him. So if the atheist presents theologically sound arguments there is no reason to discard them purely because he is an atheist. Just because he rejects God doesn't mean he doesn't have a form of God given wisdom.
Juan Cooper
Except the miracle has being proven countless of times so the opinions of an atheist and an Aglican (atheist) are both discarded During the Ottoman's rule on the 15th century some soldiers didn't let the Orthodox patriarch to enter the temple and and gave permission to the Armenian patriarch instead, the Holy Fire broke the column and went to the candle of the Orthodox patriarch. The broken column is still there to this day.
Only your column gives me some disquiet at dismissing it entirely.
John Robinson
Right well, the core concepts of Christianity 101, down to the most basic protestant sect, is that miracles exist. And if any atheist in the proper sense. Not someone who's just a dawkinite, or Hitchens vangaurd and is anti theist. But seemingly takes the position of Ops man That Miracles don't exist, and that all that exist and ever will exist, is this meaningless observable universe then yes, his basic theology is broken on the ground level. If Miracles don't exist then such a thing as the resurrection could not occur. In this case the librarian masquerading as a master plumber has issues at the source. *Miracles can't exist* *All that exist is this meaningless play of atoms* Etc. So yea pretty much in this case i'd say tose it cause if he's arguing this on christian grounds already massive red flags at the beginning. It really is just simple why would i listen to someone who's a materialist, naturalist who more than likely already hates my guts to begin with, thinks i'm full of it. There is no wisdom to be obtained here unless you already take the position of miracles don't exist. Then well good job you've just destroyed the entire point of the gospels.
Anthony Robinson
incredible. praise be to God
Thomas Clark
Yeah well maybe if it wasn't for your provocative title and slander (heretics, blasphemers, charistmatic nuts, holy fable) i wouldn't resort to name calling. And the "folk tales" you are refering to are testimonies by numerous people from various religions and Christian denominations from all these years Also you should know that Israeli police search the patriarch every time before he enters the temple to see if he is holding anything that can light the fire, if there was anything fishy going on be sure that they would be more than happy to inform us. All these centuries neither Jews nor Muslims could prove that the Holy Fire is not a miracle, but if you trust your atheist researcher so much i don't have anything more to say to you.
Lucas Garcia
I don't trust anyone other than Christ, but thanks for your responses.
Camden Jackson
can mods ban these idiots who make bait threads?
Brody Kelly
True and worth considering, I haven't considered miracles much, I believe they can happen like I believe that there are genuine UFO sightings even though the majority are probably nothing special. But herein lies my problem; the regularity of the holy fire event is unlike the genuine UFO, which is random, I can't predict the genuine UFO's occurrence, I can only say it's probability is low, but not impossibly low.
However the holy fire is different, it happens every year at exactly the same time, so its probability is 100%, and that leads me to doubt it.
Liam Perry
We can all agree that prot miracles are the best miracles.
This is actually a good point, regardless of him being an atheist. Miracles never serve as proof, as proof contradicts faith.
If God really wanted to prove himself, he could do a lot more than the holy fire.
Isaiah Rivera
Also CS Lewis was such a genius, his words always stand up to scrutiny.
Andrew Robinson
Wait is this for real? Top kek winnie the pooh it even (God forbid) Anglicans are less heretics ignoring the part of gay/woman "priests"
Christopher Miller
Does anyone have any videos of someone just touching the thing? It's supposed to be cool to the touch, if someone would just keep their hand in there and see if it burns this would all be solved flat out. Also, what do my fellow Catholics think of this stuff? I mean we have Fatima and Lanciano, but if this is true then our sister church is quite blessed as well.
The fire has heat but it doesn't burn you for a few minutes, then it slowly becomes a real fire youtube.com/watch?v=A8ryBK7vJmw
Charles Turner
Jerusalem and Rome aren't sister churches.
Logan Watson
The first paragraph is, frankly speaking, nonsense. The second part is not wrong but it's not right either. Would God want that ? You read the New Testament, then answer the question. *John 20:29 Free will is the most important thing. God doesn't violate it. To force miracles and "prove Himself" would either have to violate free will (and who wants to be worshiped by people that do it because they have to) or it would just happen nothing. True miracles are happening every day, yet people either denounce them or straight out call them out as "bullsh't" - which is already being done. Eucharistic miracles (of which there happened more than one), some of THE greatest proofs of not only the Christian faith but for the truth of Catholic teaching of the most holy Eucharist - even scientifically investigated - are being denounced mostly by prots but even by orthos (who btw believe the same actually) for the sake of being anti-Catholic. The shroud of Turin. Miracles in the East, for example crying icons (or the Western equivalents, crying statues), icons that drip of myron, the holy fire in Jerusalem, you name it. Everything being denounced all around. The question is why. All aside that the Easterners are in schism with us. I don't know. But matter of fact is that God doesn't need a proof. But from time to time He chooses to show Himself one way or the other directly to show people "hey look, you're busy and all that but take a second and think about this. I love you and I don't wish for anything more than you loving me back :D". Or take into account the countless miracles of the saints. The truth is this: There is enough material, enough proof, enough of everything. But it's the devil tempting people to worship themselves, their egos, their intellects, that prevents them from coming to God.
We need to pray for them. All of them. God bless
Carson Fisher
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Ryan Butler
You do realize that this miracle isn't taught as a founding principle of the Orthodox Church right? Belief in this miracle happening or not it does happen isn't necessary for salvation or for the continuation of the Church.
We will be one day brother.
I do love me some toast though.
Jackson Sanchez
The theology isn't even logical it just takes a verse out of context when numerous times in the old and new testament God performs miracles so people would believe.You are just salty so willing to jump on anything.
Jaxson White
Yeah, but why? The assumption is that the holy fire exists because of the holiness of the place, (being Jesus' tomb). But then that would mean that a holy fire takes place once a year, every year, from 34AD onward, but we don't have records for this.
Moreover, why should this event just happen one day out of the year? One which doesn't necessarily represent the historical day of Jesus' resurrection, but certainly fits really nicely with the liturgical year?
In short it is just too tidy to be a miracle, it fits too well with the human tradition of the liturgical year. You can tell that this is right because there is still a debate about whether the last supper was a passover meal, meaning we don't have a secure anniversary date to begin with.
Leo Brown
It would be much more believable as a miracle if the Church of the Holy Sepulcher had a holy fire phenomenon every day, or on uncertain days.
Eli Green
I'm Orthodox but didn't a Pope (AI think it was John Paul 2) say that the Catholic and orthodox church are the two lungs of the church? If that is so then I would say that God breathes into both churches miracles.
Anthony Cook
How is there even a debate over this?
Ayden Murphy
These are absolutely terrible arguments you are jhst taking in unrelated stuff and saying it somehow proves the miracle is fake. It doesn't matter if the holy fire wasn't always appearing since 34AD. The miracle is a work of God not an magic aspect of the place itself. if it appeared at random times how would that be more convincing? it could very well be a natural thing then. Your argument is basically i reject it because this miracle is too miraculous, i'm sure if you saw Jesus raise someone from the dead you would complain how convenient it was
Parker Price
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Jonathan Mitchell
John's Gospel records a regularly recurring miracle in John 5 about the pool of Bethesda (or Bethsaida in the Latin). It says that an angel wpuld regularly come and stir the waters, at which time the first person to touch the water would be healed. So it is really no different than the Holy Fire in that regard.
Secons, miracles are not the product of faith, they are the product of God who makes miracles wherever he sees fit. God often uses miracles to confound unbelief. Prophets' prove their mission from God to others by miracles. For instance, Moses did miracles before Pharaoh to prove himself even though Pharaoh did not believe him (or did not care) before or after.
Third, the whole premise that giving evidence for your claims violates others' free will is just stupid.
Robert Jenkins
No, he said that in reference to the rites - the Latin rite (the Roman Catholics) and the Byzantine, Oriental, etc. rites (the Eastern Catholics).
