Thread for good faith arguments and apologetics/resource posting.
I'm not trying to start division but am genuinely unsure of who is correct so I would like to see good faith debating. I've heard many of the standard arguments from both sides but I'm looking to basically take the strongest ones, put them side by side and go wherever God guides me.
Protestants are welcome to post apologetics as well, at this point I'm gaslit to the point where I'm willing to hear out any sane arguments.
I can recognize the utility of religion and the truth of Christianity now I'm simply trying to find the most orthodox way of practicing it. Hopefully others can be helped by this thread too.
fair warning lad this placd doesn't exactly know the meaning of the phrase "Good faith"
Jace Morales
Yeah I know, just figured I'd throw it in to encourage people. I basically just want to see everyone argue it out in one place.
You'd think you'd see it more often but I really haven't found much where different denominations really debate or argue side by side, its usually just one person spouting off their own denom's apologetics.
Aaron Perez
How about an "Catholic and Orthodox Ecumenism" thread ? The whole board is full with threads an posts of "muh tradcaths" and "muh tradorthos" fighting each other. In the real world Catholics and orthos are glad to find each other, because we're all Christians and having some fellowship is awesome. This whole division stuff is mental masturbation that nobody on the internet will ever be solving. Leave it to the theologians and Church lawyers.
This is now an official thread for Catholic and Orthodox ecumenism. Say something nice about the other instead regurgitating for the milllionth time arguments that other side won't listen to anyway on the internet. I'll start: I love how genuine orthos are trying to rigorously live the faith - especially with the "fasting spirituality" in these times, especially in areas like Russia or the Ukraine (among others) that are plagued with ex-Soviet stuff and mindsets. Which brings me also to: Although the orthos are often too inclined with politics in my opinion, I have nothing but respect for the orthos and Eastern Catholics in the ex Soviet-areas that they kept the faith alive under constant threats of death and those that died for not renouncing their faith - and so I understand when real orthos sometimes care a bit too much about politics.
I personally like both I just don't know which to join. Whichever I do join I'm not going to just start attacking the other, I'm just genuinely not sure where to go. I like aspects of both. I also understand that what matters more than autistic high theology is the religion itself, but that doesn't get rid of the need for knowing where to start.
That would basically be SSPX or Orthodox
Nicholas Kelly
Literally read the Church Fathers and study each church individually, not the debate, and see which one aligns with the Fathers, this should be pretty unobjectionable to Orthodox and Roman Catholics If you haven't already the Apotolic Fathers are a must read, after look at Churches both hold as important figures and read their works
I love the rosary and the stations of the cross and it's a shame I can only do them at an Orthodox church at very few locations
Traditional Roman Catholics are in complete communion with the Pope, so I don't know how traditional SSPX really is
Caleb Sanchez
Please LARP somewhere else. Faith depends on truth, not about "le ebil modernism" t. Ortho
Nathan King
This is why I haven't joined the SSPX, it requires a good deal of mental gymnastics. The only way to rationalize it is to say the chruch is in a state of necessity and we can throw out rules we don't like, which is kind of retarded in my opinion.
I also like the rosary and stations of the cross.
And yeah I'm definitely going to read through a good chunk of the Church Fathers, any recommendation on which of the Apostolic Fathers to start with?
Isaac Harris
This 200%
Cooper Wilson
We Starovers now
Aaron Jackson
Ignatius is my favorite, he wrote seven epistles on his way to his martyrdom, six to churches one to St. Polycarp
Get ready to be called an ecumenist young calendar schismatic heretic
Brandon Nguyen
Orthobro here. Ultimately the argument of Catholic vs Orthodox boils down to Church hierarchy and whether or not you think the Papacy is infallible in matters of moral, spiritual, and ecclesiastical questions. I would strongly recommend reading the Bible, then the Church Fathers starting with the Apostolic Fathers (Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement, The Didache, etc.) and working your way up. Then pray a lot for God's guidance and decide for yourself which Church is closer to the original. I would also suggest actually going to several Catholic (latin mass, novus ordo, and eastern rite) and Orthodox services and see how you feel. This is a big question and takes patience to answer for each individual. God bless!
Jordan Cruz
Truth is timeless and ancient, not ever MODERN. Pick the LEAST MODERN CHURCH and you're already closer to TRUTH.
Same poster here. If you're already familiar with the Old Testament and Gospels, then I stress that you read the New Testament from Acts to Revelation because those books really are about the early Church and are probably the most important in terms of your question.
Jayden Morales
Never ever. Ecumenism is a tool of satan against the one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
William Green
I will start with him once I've finished reading through the New Testament, thanks
So far the only masses I've ever gone to were catholic novus ordo and one time a pozzed protestant one with my friend. I definitely need to try more and branch out. Yeah and I really don't know the answer to whether the primacy of the bishop of Rome is valid so I need to do more reading and searching
baste I'm also a Traditionalist but you've got to cool it with the larping bud
I have read parts of the old testament and have read every gospel except luke which I'm currently reading a little each day, from there I'll go in order through revelation then I'll gradually read the OT in its entirety
Hunter Williams
Something something Athenagoras Something something freemasonry Something something new calendar
Cooper Baker
He's right, tho t. Gadolig
Jordan Clark
Try harder, satan.
Christopher Flores
By your """logic""", you are a heretic for celebrating Liturgy of John Chrysostom and Basil the Great, that have altered the old liturgical traditions. LARP somewhere else
Alexander Powell
Oh man it's in Greek, if only it were in Russian I would accept it all without any though, completely jumping past defining terms into posting in caps on a Latvian singe language forums
what's the significance of the cookie sandwich at the bottom?
Also I can't tell if Orthodox is a meme. Thinking its a meme is what's kept me away from it but I do like their resistance to change and secular forces. Like the other guy said though the choice really isn't about the memes its about whether or not you accept the pope, that's what I need to look into.
tollhouse trash it isnt, but LARPers make to look like it, just like deus vulters make that of Catholicism
Jason Bell
What do you get if you mix clean water with dirty water?
BTW, I can give you one simple reason why the Catholic way is incompatible with the Orthodox way. When a Catholic guy wants to prove something he shows to us some official Church decision, such as a decision by the pope. But when an Orthodox guy wants to prove something he shows us this:
Now what is this? Is this someone who is officially considered thinking the Orthodox way by the Orthodox Church? Not, he is not. But who is he then? Well, he is someone who has earned the respect of the Orthodox Christians, some who is considered close to being a saint.
Please notice how often Orthodox people in this board are refering to the opinion of people like the father Arsenie Papacioc. Why? Because such people, that is people who show their faith with their dees, are the people, who lead the Orthodox people.
The Catholic Church is compromised by bad decisions of the Catholic hierarchy. Are there bad decisions by the Orthodox hierarchy? Sure. But who cares…
Tollhouses, russiaboos can't stop talking about them Also Orthodoxy itself isn't a meme, but many Orthos are, hence me, an Ortho, making that meme
uuuugggghhhhh
Landon Bennett
...
Brody Sanders
...
Adam Bailey
on filioque Like every other dogma, the filioque was not "added" or "invented", it was accepted by most of the Church and by the Doctors of the Church, the Pope simply cemented it. That is one of the Pope's two roles as the successor to St. Peter; to cement teachings of the Church as infallible. The other role is to act as the shepherd of the flock on Earth in the place of Christ, which is why he is the "first among equals"; he is the bishop that leads the rest of the church, just as Peter was the "first" among the Apostles. The name "pope" is simply a title for the role; the supremacy of the Bishop of Rome was well-known in the early Church. And the popes had always listened to the advice of other bishops, which is why they held ecumenical councils.
The best way to find out is to attend the services of both, talk to the parishioners and to the priest and then come to a conclusion. Personally i’m going to convert to Orthodoxy from Catholicism, the beauty of the Divine Liturgy is just something else and that’s what really swayed me, as well as the theology and the church fathers etc. God be with you on whatever path you take though.
Hunter Cooper
Any citation for this? Even if we are to accept that most in the east accepted Filioque then we need to understand which one. The Greek and Latin terms for proceed are different, in Latin it implies eternal procession but in Greek it implies temporal procession. There is also the fact of “through the Son” rather than “and the Son” being popular in the east which is different to “and the Son”
I mean father through son which is what filioque basically says Tertullian "I believe that the Spirit proceeds not otherwise than from the Father through the Son" (Against Praxeas 4:1 [A.D. 216]). too lazy to find some more
Do you know what Orthos profess to believe, that's literally the words we use
Carter Allen
Filioque says the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, not through. If they mean through then they could just say through instead of and to clear up this one thousand year confusion.
Jack Jenkins
Cringe. This reads like it was written by an edgy 15-year-old.
A degenerate autocratic slaver entity that abolished independence of my country after deceiving and Machiavellian scheming and after, abolished autocephaly of my church (one of the oldest, mind you), and that turned Russian Orthodox Church into a ordinary part of the administration, ruled by the Ober-Procuror, similarly to England
Austin King
It's funny that the Catholic guy started with Tertullian.
at this point I'm copying form catholic answers However, union is still possible on the filioque issue through the recognition that the formulas "and the Son" and "through the Son" mean the same thing. Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states that "This legitimate complementarity [of expressions], provided it does not become rigid, does not affect the identity of faith in the reality of the same mystery confessed" (CCC 248). they mean the same thing
Asher Thomas
called by me
Lincoln Turner
oof i can still find quotes from non heretics Maximus the Confessor "By nature the Holy Spirit in his being takes substantially his origin from the Father through the Son who is begotten (Questions to Thalassium 63 [A.D. 254]).
Joseph Diaz
The Spirit proceeds from the Father through the Son -Most Orthos
Ryan Wright
Then why doesn’t the Catholic Church simply change the word from “and” to “through”. Orthodox Christians reject the word “and” because it either directly states that the Spirit proceeds eternally from the Son, or implicitly states it. The Catholic Church should just change it to “through”.
Benjamin Walker
And the Son and Through the Son mean the same thing idk why the church doesn't change it
Colton Wright
Although I am against the double procession of the Spirit from the Father and the Son I am willing to tolerate “through the Son”. Yet I have some issues with this, first of all is how does this affect the baptism where the Spirit is sent to the Son from the Father, shouldn’t this no occur if he proceeds through the Son? Secondly when we say “through” do we mean the same “through” as earlier in the creed that God made all things “through” the Son?
Jason Gonzalez
Because it doesn't mean the same thing and changing word in the recited creed doesn't change the theological stances of the Roman Catholic Church
Daniel Russell
Because the ball is in your hand and the orthodox are waiting for the pitch. You know the Orthodox for the most part would open their arms to Rome changing one word to remove any implicit indication of eternal procession. So why not? If it’s the same word it would be much much much more easier to change one word than to continue with the vocabulary which has split east and west for 1000 years
Samuel Cox
I’m and i’m sorry for that post because I misinterpreted what you said for some reason, I think I was getting posts messed up.
Andrew Mitchell
it does
I honestly don't know why. It wouldn't have any real effect on Catholic theology except better ecumenical relationships.
Brandon Howard
I wonder why as well, I only have three answers. 1: As other anons have said the filioque is held by the Roman Catholic church leadership as an eternal procession of the spirit from the son and that catholic bridge is wrong. 2: The catholic church knows that through is correct, but are somewhat embarrassed to admit it. 3: The catholic church knows that it is correct but since this is a recent discovery they don't want to implement it yet but will later.
Carson Perez
Haha. No.
Nathaniel Perry
I can assure you if you pick a church because of "arguments" you are going to second guess it sooner or later and look for the new super original true brand to follow. Go to church, pray and stop wasting time into empty theorizing. God will tell you.
This is the only correct answer ITT. If you are looking to other people to tell you which church you should join, then you are doing it wrong. Also, study Scripture, too. This is indispensible.
Henry Reed
I agree with you guys but looking at the arguments has helped a bit, at least in acquiring new knowledge on the subject
Alexander Gray
Top LARP
Ryan Long
I recall CS Lewis saying something similar and that the church-shopping mentality was spiritually toxic. Maybe in Screwtape Letters?
He was also a Pr*testant though. I enjoyed Mere Christianity but something about the Screwtape Letters annoyed me and I couldn't finish it
I'm not necessarily Church shopping, I've been looking into Catholicism specifically and learning about Christianity through it, now I'm just looking into Orthodoxy though. I find myself always coming back to Catholicism though, I can't shake the feeling that its correct.
Nathan Morris
Do you feel the behavior of church members is a sign of grace?
The Orthodox clergy seems to have a lot less scandals and the laity seem more knowledgeable about their faith.
With the exception being the Lebanese Catholics I've met(they were all amazing people) most Catholics here in the States just seem so lukewarm and their lifestyles are at odds with their faith.
I don't know if I really buy the idea that being correct necessitates Grace, I mean look at something like Job.
Catholicism is going through a trial I think. For whatever reason its been hit hard by modernity but I believe there are ways out of it.
I think the reason Orthodoxy is based is more incidental than anything else, for all we know in 500 years the situation will be reversed.
Nicholas Jackson
That's not really an argument though. Most Muslims are also clued into their faith. That doesn't mean that Islam is the true faith. As to the amount of people who live their faith appropriately, remember the words of St Athanasius.
HA HA HA HA HA Who ever edited this meme 10/10 to you sir.
Michael Evans
Says who, you? Who are you that can see the future and why do you waste your time on message boards then?
Jason Gonzalez
I said "for all we know" meaning we don't know. I mean the opposite of what you're saying, the situation could be reversed in 500 years, maybe itll be more of the same, maybe itll be something else, I have no clue.
The point is I don't think the current difficult state of things is much of an argument.
Sebastian Nguyen
The sacrifice of Christ is the basis for the New Covenant. So research on the Christus Victor (Orthodox) vs the Satisfaction theory of atonement (Papal Catholic) and decide by yourself.
Lincoln Kelly
I don't mean least MODERN in chronology I mean least MODERN in principles/teachings! The idea of a merely symbolic eucharist//baptism is a MODERN innovation just like mandatory priestly celibacy or Vatican Two or Sola Scriptura!! Flee MODERNISM!
They believe the same thing as the Eastern Orthodox. No. Stop. Talk to actual people in real life rather than just believing something you read on an anonymous Turkmen goat milking forum.
Ayden Russell
Presbyterian**
Noah Taylor
These are 1st grade apologetics.
Cooper Moore
I know a Copt from Libya who became Eastern Orthodox because of both the whole Christology business and the denial of theosis. But is still a dummy. Nearly everybody's been calling the miaphysite "Orthodox" since the official talks in the 90's ended on very good terms, and the Syriac and Antiochian churches have already taken steps to bring each other closer to communion.
Jack Powell
How about not in a million years?
Julian Walker
man, this is the intOrnet…here there's seldom place for dialogue between Ordos and Gads.
…and anyway,m too many on both sides are LARPing, simple as that.
