Do you know how much it offends Jesus if you believe you have to do good works to maintain your salvation?

you bet your damn ass I know how he feels.

Pathetic, timmy. Now everyone here knows that's the new name I gave you.

No. Christ warned us explicitly not to sin.
Mark 9:43-48

If what you're saying is true, Christ wouldn't tell us to do this.

can I keep going to catholic mass if i belive in OSAS?
The theology sounds solid and well,my works arent even that great to begin with.
I wouldn't bet on them.

Who is He speaking to? To those whom He has told "your faith has saved you," or to those which He has not made any statement of "being saved" to?

I wouldn't recommend it.

We don't do works to "maintain" salvation because salvation is something that occurs after your particular judgement.

I'm tired of repeating myself.

No, I'm not done with you yet. Are you saying that God doesn't completely forgive you the moment you accept his forgiveness?
Outside. Of. Time.

God forgives you when you repent but he doesn't forgive you for the sins you might commit in the future. Repentance means turning away from sin and a desire to live righteously.

I guess, being in the presence of our Lord during eucharist is certainly not a bad thing. But you're not Catholic, you know that to be Catholic you have to accept 100% of what the Church teaches. And don't even think about receiving eucharist because you'd be commiting a terrible sacrilege.

He was obviously addressing people who believed in Him, why would He bother saying that to unbelievers since they're going to hell anyway?

Every time I post here it kinda makes me want to quit being christian.
everyone is harsh to me and always warns me and threatens me.
I wish I could pass away peacefully and not face this rotten world.
i AM a catholic.
im not sure if i can keep being one.too much pressure and requirements

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You can attend mass, just don't take communion since you are clinging to heresy and therefore are in mortal sin.

Also 1 Corinthians 15

No you're not if you believe in OSAS. It is condemned by the Church and if you persist knowing that, you're a formal heretic and you're automatically out of the Church.
Well Luther had the same problem. Go figure.

See?
this why i dont want to be a christian anymore.
I should have PM'd OP and talked in peace.

I'm confused… do you think people are being mean when they simply tell you the truth? You do realize that we are in fact being charitable with you, taking the time to explain your faith to you, right?

Didn't have to read all of this. He's not catholic, thank the Lord.

I often ask myself the same question.

You may always speak to me in peace, brother.

I think God wants me to suffer.
a world where you can lose your salvation is like a torture chamber of uncertainity.

TBQH I read many tomes on christian unversalism but even then continued with nofap. I dont think osas makes people sin wantomly as many assert.
maybe i should contact a priest and not an internet guru!

To expand on this, do you think that, instead of healing you, Jesus would force you to spend eternity as an amputee if he has forgiven you?

I grew up in the Reformed tradition, attended a Reformed Bible college, and ended up actually becoming Independent Baptist after a study of Scripture from a consistent literal, historical-grammatical hermeneutic.

I had a crisis of faith as I sought to interpret the Scriptures, 'sola Scriptura', and then looked at how the early church interpreted them. We don't see 'sola fide' in the early church. Period. Baptism and salvation, as well as the real presence of Christ in communion, the importance of Tradition in the interpretation of Holy Scripture, etc. are all prevalent in the early church. I was in the midst of writing a Master's thesis on OSAS at an unaccredited Baptist Bible college when I came into this crisis, was unable to resolve it, and left my Baptist Church. I can't hold to papal infallibility, the Immaculate Conception, etc., and I believe that the Catholic Church does not have continuity with the early church, especially after Vatican II.

I don't honestly see how OSAS can be defended, particularly since we don't see it arise until the a post-Enlightenment approach to the Scriptures is adopted and it is read outside of its intended context.

>"This charge I commit to you, son Timothy, according to the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you may wage the good warfare, having faith and a good conscience, which some having rejected, concerning the faith have suffered shipwreck, of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme." (1 Timothy 1:18-20 NKJV)

I understand proof texting isn't the answer. I did that for years in Reformed Presbyterian catechism class and later as I wrote from a Baptist viewpoint.

You do also realize God gave us the ability to repent and wash our sins via confession? Drop the OSAS, go to confession, talk to the priest and try not to sin.

Again, you're under the presumption Christ forgave sins in advance. He obviously tells us sin leads to hell. I don't know how He could've been more clear, don't sin or you'll go to hell.

>gen.lib.rus.ec/book/index.php?md5=2DA8A86C6A8C5A4DA9EDF80C4ABD7D20
you should read this.
its long but worth it.

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Ah, the classic wall of text to overpower.
I'll read it, just to appease your dumb ads.
Those who do not are the seeds sowed among the rocks, the thorns, the path. They were never saved.
You know what? I was going to respond to every single point you posted, but I will just repeat myself one last time.
Do you believe that God, who is outside of time, forgives you for all of your sins the moment you accept His complete forgiveness and sacrifice for all the sins of humanity, or that he is experiencing time alongside you?
Refute this in any way, you're saying that his sacrifice was a one time thing. It might as well have been only for that time you swiped a pack of smokes at the bar.

What about you, then? When was the last time you sinned?

No. Both Christ and His Apostles go through great lenghts to tell us not to sin and they're obviously addressing believers. If salvation was as easy as saying 'I believe' the narrow gate wouldn't be narrow. On a personal note, I will not gamble with this preposition of osas, I will not take the chance.

the book I posted isn't even about OSAS.
You should give it a read, seriously.

Jesus makes it clear that he's not interested in people who only give him lip service.

Are you a Universalist?

Ah, didn't read your whole post. The verse you quoted was what I was referring to.
What is it to believe? To truly believe? To have faith? Does true faith ever leave you completely?
If you accept Jesus into your heart, is he gonna say "tigga, you got drunk again. I'm outta here" or is his forgiveness less than 70 times seven?

atheist user here, saw thread on main page of 8

don't have time to read whole thread now,
but since I went to mass a handful of time I do like the good works as a just in case bit with atheism and hence have an issue with the protestant doctrine of only saying the magic words and being rewarded instead of actually being a good person. so I like this

and also this as a theological point

and I would like the other poster to address the point of this post

thank you for the theological stimulation.

I would like to be one, then I come across news of serial killers or p0rn industry and ponder.

still atheist user here,

I have used this concept as a justification for abortion,
in the sense that if a mother knows her child will grow up in a terrible place and likely sin and harm others then doesn't she do a great thing in damning her own soul to hell to save and thus send that whole soul straight to heaven to kill the child in the womb? Isn't it better to kill the unborn than have them be born into a life of sin and depravity?

not trolling, or trying to derail, fascinated by a theological discussion

I'd like to be one as well, but nobody deserves salvation.

Exactly, which means you actually have to DO something to be saved. And it's not a one time thing either.

The Apostle explicitly tells us mortal sin leads to hell. I don't know what else to tell you. God will forgive our sins if repent, but keep in mind that 'God is not mocked'.

I believe in some manner of fire burning us till we repent.
it doesn't have to be eternal to be scary. even a minute getting burnt is awful.

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This is making a distinction between blasphemy of the holy spirit, the one unforgivable sin, to other sins one commits before or after accepting salvation.

Explain laddie

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Ugh, this is why I don't generally argue using the Bible, you can twist and turn every line as you see fit.

Here we have st. Paul telling Christians what will lead them to hell (ie sins unto death) after they have accepted the faith. If you can't understand this, it makes no sense to go on, believe what you will.

Classic diversion. You didn't address my point.

Well, for example I come across a news of a mexican hitman who killed 2K people in cruel ways.
can such men be redeemed?
how long will it take?
can such hearts be softened?

Is blasphemy against the holy spirit not the one unforgivable sin?

You're avoiding my question it seems. God offers us grace, but do we get the choice to accept it/reject it? Or is it essentially forced on us?
If we get the choice to reject it, this alone is already "picking up your end", since it's a dialogue, a synergy, and you can do the wrong thing and reject the salvation God offers.

And besides, people with your ideas say that we transform God's free gift into a debt to pay since works are involved, but do you not turn God's free gift into a tyrannical decree since you have no responsibility to receive and to keep it?

Nobody's forcing anything on anyone. To say so is to pervert forgiveness itself.
Did Jesus only die for the sins committed before He was crucified?

No, Jesus died for all the sins in the world.
But what exactly do you mean by
? Answering positively to God's grace is what I'd call "picking up your end". But it's God Who comes to us and gives Himself to us, we can do nothing to reach Him ourselves.

So, Jesus died for all the sins in the world, but he didn't die for the time you masturbated tomorrow?

What? Of course He did. All the sins of all the world are covered. In fact, it is the whole cosmos that Christ restores through the Cross.
But it's not because a sin is forgiven that it ceases to exist. It is only at the eschaton that all sin will be -destroyed-. But for now, even though we are already forgiven by Christ, we can foolishly hold onto our sickness and refuse to accept God's medical treatment, so to speak.
In fact, one Orthodox view is that all the sins of all are forgiven. The sins of the unbelievers are forgiven to. But we do not necessarily accept that we are forgiven, we can hold onto our disease even though it is not ours anymore.

By being in Christ, we can cease to sin, not only accepting that our sins are forgiven but also being freed of sin truly, as we become like Christ Who was sinless. But until the second coming, sin can and does continue to exist, and many people in their ignorance let it enter their lives. They may be forgiven already of their errors, but they let sin and death infect them, and when death itself will be sent to the lake of fire, you too will taste destruction if you have something of death in you, that is, sin.

So God says "hey, you're forgiven, but I'm still sending you to hell."
And I will remind you that there is only one sin that is unforgivable.

Ecclesiastes 2:11

I'll note that sin being forgiven does mean something - it means that our path to deification, to becoming like Christ and an adopted child of God, becomes available. And it means that all will be resurrected, and bathed in God. But those who do not have the Holy Spirit in them will not find this to be a very enjoyable experience, as God is a consuming fire.

God forgives our transgressions but their consequences remain. The main consequence being separation from God. When He will judge us at the second coming, what will be shown for the world to see is simply the exact truth of what we've done, of what we've decided not to do, of the consequences of the evil we have committed. Even if the evil is forgiven, the consequnces remain and we can, in our foolishness, stick to them instead of letting God perfect us in our being.
Remember that although it is God Who judges us, we are the ones to send ourselves to Hell. The Gehenna was made for the devil and his angels, and it is not God's will that any human go there, especially as He wills for the salvation of everyone.

Once again, it's "he forgives you but still sends you to hell."
The wages of sin is death which is I assume is the consequence you are speaking of, but he who believes on Him has passed from death unto life.
He forgives every sin, except for knowing the truth and willfully turning away. There is no other sin that is also unforgivable.
Those who accept his sacrifice for ALL their sins are the seeds sown in good soil. Those who think their worldly deeds are also necessary are the ones sowed among thorns.

That is not what blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is.
And knowing the truth and yet leaving is forgiveable, if one is penitent and returns to the Church.

Okay, so. You're confusing two things. One thing is the forgiveness of sins. The other thing is our deification, our becoming Christ-like. Forgiveness of sins reconciles us with God. But we still need God's grace to then make us grow in Christ as a new creation. Our salvation doesn't stop at "Chist forgives us".

If you leave the truth, you never knew it. I'm not talking about sins besides BAtHS.
But, tell me. What is your definition of BAtHS? Being to prideful to accept salvation? Same thing.

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Verses proving salvation to anyone that believes and not of works.
youtu.be/BXMA4xOS5BY

John
1:12
3:15-16/18/36
4:14(John 6:35)
5:24
6:28-29/35/38-40/44-45/47
7:38-39
8:24
10:27-29
11:25-27/40
12:46
14:1-3
16:27
20:31

Matthew
5:19
7:21-23(John 6:38-40)
8:10-13
9:2
12:37
21:31-32

Mark
1:15
2:5
10:24-25
16:16

Luke
3:3(Acts 19:4)
5:20
7:48-50
8:12
18:10-14/42
19:42
23:40-43

Acts
2:21
3:19
10:43
11:16-17
13:38-39/48
15:7-9
16:30-31
19:4(Luke 3:3)
26:18

Romans
1:16-17
3:20/22/24-28/30
4:2-14/16/24
5:1/15-18
6:14/23
8:31-33
9:30-33
10:3-4/9-10/13
11:6

1 Corinthians
1:14/17/21
3:14-15
15:1-2

2 Corinthians
4:13-14

1 Thessalonians
4:14

2 Thessalonians
1:10
2:12

Ephesians
1:13-14
2:8-9
4:7

Galatians
2:16/21
3:6-11/14/21-22/24/26
5:3-6

Philippians
3:3/9

Titus
3:5

1 Timothy
1:16

2 Timothy
1:9
3:15

Hebrews
4:3
10:38-39
11:7

1 Peter
1:3-5/8-9
2:6-7
3:21(Colossians 2:12)

1 John
4:2-3/15
5:1/4-5/10-11/13

Revelation
2:11
3:5
21:7

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