Was he right about the Toll houses?

Was he right about the Toll houses?

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Romans, motherwinnie the pooher.

Did he read?

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This is going to be thread-that-orthos-won't-touch-with-a-10-feet-pole #478375825, isn't it?

no and [-]

Fr. Barnabas put it best by saying something along the lines 'keep repeating the Jesus Prayer no matter who stops you along the way, until you reach the Lord." So, toll house or no toll house, when in doubt say the Jesus Prayer.

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I'll just paste my reply from that older thread

No, toll houses are a gnostic myth adapted to Orthodoxy.
The gnostics believed man had to go through several aeons to reach divine pleroma. Each of these steps had an archon trying to prevent the ascent of the believer.
He just turned this into the toll houses trial with a demon and an angel.

It is not however entirely out of nowhere. St. Antony the great had a vision describing something similar to the toll houses, in my opinion this is to be understood as an allegory of individual judgement. When a man dies he has to face all his sins and sinful habits.
I believe toll houses are a metaphor, not an actual spiritual reality. Same thing as the ladder of Jacob, there is no ladder nor toll houses, just visions to explain what happens to our human senses. Possibly also visions of purgatory are of the same spiritual process.
We tend to make idols out of these visions, turning them into physical realities.

tl;dr there are no literal toll houses, but you will have to face your sinful habits

See, this is the type of conclusion I came to, but there's a serious push by Rocor and American converts for whatever reason regarding the Toll houses.

I'm considering becoming orthodox, but I can't wrap my head on such a sinister concept.

In a way you are correct, because the spiritual world can not be described exactly with Earthy terminology. But this doesn't mean the toll houses don't exist.


The reason is that there is a serious push by some people in US against the toll houses for whatever reason. :)
If you become Orthodox you should also become a fearless warriour who slays countless devils. You should train yourself not to be intimidated by them.

“When you go out to war against your enemies, and see horses and chariots and an army larger than your own, you shall not be afraid of them, for the Lord your God is with you, who brought you up out of the land of Egypt. And when you draw near to the battle, the priest shall come forward and speak to the people and shall say to them, ‘Hear, O Israel, today you are drawing near for battle against your enemies: let not your heart faint. Do not fear or panic or be in dread of them, for the Lord your God is he who goes with you to fight for you against your enemies, to give you the victory.’ (Deut 20:1-4)

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What's the whole summary of these toll houses and why are they heretical?

That's top tier beard right there

Must be new here

Seems as if it were taken straight from the First Apocalypse of James.

Now when James heard these things, he wiped away the tears in his eyes and very bitter […] which is […]. The Lord said to him, "James, behold, I shall reveal to you your redemption. When you are seized, and you undergo these sufferings, a multitude will arm themselves against you that may seize you. And in particular three of them will seize you - they who sit (there) as toll collectors. Not only do they demand toll, but they also take away souls by theft. When you come into their power, one of them who is their guard will say to you, 'Who are you or where are you from?' You are to say to him, 'I am a son, and I am from the Father.' He will say to you, 'What sort of son are you, and to what father do you belong?' You are to say to him, 'I am from the Pre-existent Father, and a son in the Pre-existent One.' When he says to you, […], you are to say to him […] in the […] that I might […]."

'[…] of alien things?' You are to say to him, 'They are not entirely alien, but they are from Achamoth, who is the female. And these she produced as she brought down the race from the Pre-existent One. So then they are not alien, but they are ours. They are indeed ours because she who is mistress of them is from the Pre-existent One. At the same time they are alien because the Pre-existent One did not have intercourse with her, when she produced them.' When he also says to you, 'Where will you go?', you are to say to him, 'To the place from which I have come, there shall I return.' And if you say these things, you will escape their attacks.

gnosis.org/naghamm/1ja.html

LARP

Orthodox Saints have described toll houses in visions, but this does not make it dogma but simply what they have seen and shared to us.

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This. I don't know why people don't understand this. You can believe in tollhouses or not believe in them because they are not dogmatically declared one way or the other. There is no reason to sperg out about the issue.

Tollhouses are biblical. I don't know why people are so against them. The whole point of Satan existing is to accuse people of sins, and Jesus himself says you will be accused and judged.

Maybe because the concept - as brought forth by the likes of Seraphim Rose - originated from gnostic texts and should therefore be altogether be rejected ?
Last time I checked gnosticism is condemned by the ortho churches, too.

St. Anthony was a gnostic? News to me.
spergs gonna sperg

Because Rose and Rosetards want to introduce it as "le only true orthodox teaching". And of course, only their version is true, other, metaphorical understandings is heresy. Moreover, it's a general trashy and unnecessary teaching that actually hinders people more than it does anything good.

Not only St. Anthony. Ap. Paul wrote about going to a third heaven and hearing unspeakable words (2 Cor 12:2). This also is a gnostic teaching.

Actually, gnostics believed in God. But we also believe in God, so apparently we are gnostics too…

Subjective opinions and strawmanning for all! Huzzah!


Go back to /christ/ before I report your larping gnostic behind

The "best" defense for tollhouses being biblical I've seen is from the St. Anthony's Monastery Meme Tome, and it honestly made me more comfortable than every in not believing in their view of the tollhouses. If in an eleven hundred page book that small portion filled with rampant eisegesis is the best they can do to defend their ideas with Holy Scripture they absolutely cannot be enforced as a dogma, especially with the only patristic defense from nearly the first three centuries of the Church that they give being a short quotation from Justin Martyr that does not only support their position

If you think Rose is bad you should check out The Departure of the Soul According to the Teaching of the Orthodox Church, they manage to do a worse job defending while being more than three times as long

Also

R E D D I T

Not an argument

Ok dollar man

test

Does Rose or say somewhere that a very literal understanding is the only correct understanding or it is only some followers of Rose that say this? Years ago I've read some things by Rose but now I can't remember.

Watch a bit starting from 10:30 and you'll see that whoever posted that is either ignorant or a liar.

I have a hard ime remembering exactly what Rose said, but I remember listening to some friends who took the tollhouse pill and then reading Rose and being much more comfortable with what Rose said than what people said in person and on the internet. Still disagreed, but he was at least better at explaining it

I remember liking that talk, but disliking that he said multiple times, if I remember right, that there are various competing thoughts, but then not going on to define any or even seemingly reference them

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I think a weakness of Fr. Aquaro is being vague at times beyond a doubt; I was just referencing that Seraphim Rose says himself that he's not presenting the book as dogma. If others choose to present it that way then that is solely their own choice and error.

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Born and raised Orthodox thank you, if you have any legit questions about Orthodoxy you can ask politely and i'll try to help, you don't have to embarrass yourself with pics like that
The absolute state of e-christian LARPers

orthodoxwiki.org/Mark_of_Ephesus

Agreed, it's a bad image and Orthos around here should stop posting it.

I refuse to accept that there are Orthodox people who don't know who Mark of Ephesus was or that they consider him a meme Orthodox.

Dude, I know who St. Mark of Ephesus is, I also know that tons of people will post his picture as if they're brave defenders of Orthodoxy while defending positions he wouldn't have entertained. As it is said, "its a meme you dip"
Being a cradle isn't impressive, cradles have of the most been some of the most undiscerning people I have ever met. They'll loudly proclaim what Holy Orthodoxy is, but often have no idea how to support a belief or what they're even opposing
If you want everyone to accept your literal judicial shack dwelling sky ethiopians theory you'll atleast need to improve on St. Anthony's Monastery's work, especially on their portions on the Scriptures, by including even on that isn't terrible, and the Church Fathers, maybe add some quotes from the saints between Justin Martyr and everyone else

Literally what's wrong with it. The Jay part was an edit, and while I'm not a big fan of the text I'm happy someone added Jay in.
Top left is accurate to every relationship thread, top right is accurate to all the diaper posting threads, bottom left and right to tollhouse threads, mid right to politics threads, and bottom center both to when pseudo-trads want to be edgy

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So you're just uncomfortable with their being a meme orthodox starter pack in the first place?

Perhaps its like a mirror for some

Except that's literaly the purpose of Saint veneration, to serve as an example for us with their lifes and teachings. And St Mark was canonized exactly for that, because he was a brave defender of Orthodoxy.
Only e-christians and some Americans care about the toll houses (usually used to attack Orthodoxy out of ignorance), in actual Orthodoxy they are mostly used as a metaphor or as a way to visualize ascetic teachings.
About your pic:
He is accepted and loved in ALL Orthodox countries, his books can be found translated in monasteries, churches and every Christian bookstore
I've read some of their articles and they look perfectly legit, no heresies whatsoever. If you find them edgy try looking at the teachings of St Kosmas of Aetolia or St Paisios, their edgyness will blow your mind
see above
no comment

I don't know anything about Ancient faith radio or Jaysanalysis, Putin is an ok dude and leader tho
Your meme is absolutely unacceptable for an Orthodox, next step is putting believing in Christ, going to church and praying in there.

Saint Mark actually defended Orthodoxy in a legitimate manner, channeling his charisma without matching his skill and competence doesn't make you just
I don't hate Rose. I've been to his monastery and appreciate is ascetic struggles. I simply do not have a problem with identifying that a problem group has arisen around him, if I remember correctly he did as much during his lifetime
It's not that Death To The World is illegitimate somehow, it's that people who have not history with the targeted group latch on to the aesthetics to portray edginess
Are you new to the internet, or at least the internet outside of reddit, facebook, etc. You're over analyzing the meme and attaching unnecessary meanings to it.

Ah yes, waging wars and invading Orthodox neighbors and destroying their historical heritage (including Orthodox churches) is being an ok dude and leader.
Tfu.

If some Americans want to interpret the toll-houses in a literal way, then this is their mistake. However, when other Americans deny completely the existence of something that we provisionally call "toll-houses", then this is a novelty that the Orthodox counciousness of the Orthodox people refuses to accept. Activities as the recent book from St. Anthony's Monastery Meme is a reaction to this novelty and as such it is a commendable work.


This.

I just believe that putting Orthodox monks, magazines and litteral Saints under the tag "meme Orthodox", just to attack some over zealous new converts, is somewhat offensive regardless your intention.

I'm not saying that he is perfect but he's a Saint compared to Hillary or Obama (or any western leader that is)

The problem I face is that I'm usually given two definitions of the toll house theory by believers. The first is given when you have no opinion or an opinion of light skepticism. It is a spiritual explanation of the judgement of our soul which takes place before the later judgement in our resurrected body. The tollhouses are of spiritual significance, are useful in preparation for confession and contemplating our lives, and do not need to be taken as an actual series of roughly twenty trials with demon accusers.The basics that need to be accepted is that we die, the demons attack us at and following our deaths, the air being the dwelling of demons and the prince of it having some significance, and God judges us with our attachment to sin being what will hold us back from God, but the prayers of the Church can help us become detached from sin. You accept this much because that's really no problem and then boom, they pull out the rug and now that you accept this version you must believe the one true dogmatic teaching of the Holy Orthodox Church as explained by Saint Who of Literally Where or else you are a schismatic heretic and probably a new calendarist as well

There are people other than americans who deny this retarded teaching and its not a """novelity""". What is novelity is actually accepting this gn*stic trash.

I first heard about toll houses and the controversy surrounding them in this site, the closest related thing i've heard from monks or priests before is that death is a very difficult thing because demons come and try to take your soul, thats why people who are close to dying or sentenced to death must confess and take the Eucharist. I've never ever listened to the word toll house before.
I believe it's mostly e-christians deus vult LARPers who think that they finally found the weak spot in Orthodox teachings and now they are spamming it again and again, not understanding how ignorand they look to an actual Christian
Please enlighten me

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I'm Orthodox since birth, smartmouth

Well when your theology books are translated in every Orthodox country, selled in monasteries and churches bookstores and quoted by other priests, monks and theologians you will have the right to call Seraphim Rose a "Rosetard". Since then you are just an Orthodox internet poster with an edgy opinion.
Which country btw?

The tollhouses pop up from time to time in patristic writings, but have just about no about mention in the fathers prior to the fourth century.
They were largely unchallenged in Orthodox spheres of the world so their defense is largely undeveloped, and where it is developed it's mostly developed against skeptics of spiritual things rather than skeptics of just the tollhouses themselves, which has lead to popular to quote phrases that basically equate to "oh you think you're so smart, well guess what you're getting tollhoused even if you don't believe in them"
There is a trend among some Catholics, or at least was, of using the tollhouses as some sort of ultimate attack against Eastern Orthodoxy, but it was pretty short sighted as even if they don't hold to the tollhouses themselves their own saints still mentioned them, which they exegete in a wongoed way to support purgatory
The Departure of the Soul According to the Teaching of the Orthodox Church was released from St. Anthony's Monastery a little while ago and people kinda act like its the final authority on the Orthodox veiw of the afterlife, but it honestly isn't that good. It's more than eleven hundred pages long and many of those pages are dedicated to colored pictures of icons from a few places that somehow prove that tollhouses are real because they're in pictures. Another chunk of the pages are dedicated to rebutting low effort antitollhouse arguements like you can see here about tollhouses being gnosticism and bogomilism. The beginning of the book is better than those parts, which come later on, but still not great. In the earlier part it defends the tollhouses from Scripture and the fathers. The scriptural parts has a few citations, some given as more than one proof that are from the same chapter and in one occasion literally one verse and then the following verse as two different examples, while other citations contain multiple verses. These citations have explanations of how they support the tollhouses, but they're so bad that I wish I had the book with my so I could post them here as I literally am shocked someone printed them. The portion on the fathers has a quote from St. Justin Martyr which they use to support the tollhouse, but can be used to support many frameworks, and then jumps to saint centuries later with no one in between. I would say the better book is Father Seraphims the Soul After Death, I don't agree with him but he does a better job.
I don't have a problem with either monastery, but I would say that I visited both almost back to back and I found St. Hermans far more enjoyable, and while there was tollhouse talk it was mostly because I was with ethnics who brought it up, the monks there were very friendly, nonimposing, and left us wanting to stay longer. St. Anthony's was also nice but felt a little odd the whole time. There was a weird vibe around their abbot that blurred the line of reverence and obsession and you could find literature around that was very controversial, such as works condemning the reception of converts that cannonical bishops had blessed

shut up about it already, we're all Orthodox now and having been Orthodox in diapers doesn't make you greater somehow

Ah, nice reading comprehension you have. Especially since I grouped Rose and Rosetards in different categories.
Well, I guess I should also refrain from calling Origen something, considering that he is also quoted in church literature. Also no, being popular doesnt automatically mean that you are good or you dont have crappy writings. As for rose, most popular books of his are not of tollhouse garbage, but about UFO and eastern religions criticism, as well as nihilism.
Georgia

I think this is an important point. I respect Rose as a wise and knowledgeable person I disagree with, but who I'm sure could lead a respectful conversion and bring in new insight, I just don't see that rubbing off
Also something something most popular book in Russia

Look i haven't read the book. See here>>677086 about the general consensus of toll houses in my country. First time i've heard about them was in this site. However stories about demons waiting to snatch your soul after death are very common and all over the "Gerontikon" (ascetic stories). I believe that in America they've taken the form of an ideological debate, rather than theological.

It's not about being popular but about being accepted by legit Orthodox monks, priest and theologians. I believe that if there was anything gnostic in his books those people would have already noticed till now.
Can you tell me how it is gnostic btw? What do gnostics believe about sin and repentance so that they'll also believe in toll houses anyway?

No its not. People are fallible and often may accept trash or their preception may be based on wrong information. For example, You can read works of John of Damascus. You'll note that certain parts of his "Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith", such as medical parts, for example. are outright wrong.
Basically replace tollhouses with heavens, demons with archonts and transdimensional gold with paroles and there you go. After death, soul would go through these heavens and must have told archonts said paroles acquired through gnosis that would let you to next heaven, or else you would be thrown down back to earth and be reincarnated.
being very common doesnt mean that its true. Also, have you ever considered that these may not be literal and serve as a metaphors or very materialized description of the immaterial?

Except gnostics don't believe either in sin or repentance, so demons wanting to snach your soul because of sins you still carry with you can't be connected with gnosticism in any way. The "looking similar" argument reminds me the popular pagan one
And yeah i also believe it's a metaphor used mostly by monks, Rose was also a monk and ascetic enthusiast and researcher so here you go. I don't understand the reason of the polemic against him.

Yes it's the best thing to do, but only as long there isn't a push to make them dogma. In that case it must be actively opposed.
Opposed not as being a false doctrine but as dubious and not worthy of divisions.

You are strawmanning the issue.
St. Antony speaks of a vision and is much more generic than the gnostic texts. The toll thing is specifically from gnosticism, not St.Antony.
Also one thing is a vision, another a literal unchanging spiritual stage.

A mystical vision should not be dogma.

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The meme is not attacking St.Mark, it's attacking the indiscriminate use of him in low quality polemics against latins. It usually happen because of western converts with a lot of zeal but not much knowledge.

Every Orthodox in every Orthodox country is using St Mark as an example of hardline Orthodoxy, even other Saints.
I believe that the reason western converts tend to be more zealous against other denominations is because they were actually members of those denominations before they found Orthodoxy. I also don't like the neverending aggressiveness but i can't blame them either.

I ignored the thread but it's at 60 replies now. What have you guys done?

Toll houses theory first finds an explicit and detailed outline in one homily of St Cyril of Alexandria. It remained one theologoumenon of the Christian tradition concerning particular judgment. Now autists are saying it's dogma, and autists are saying it's a gnostic heresy.

Just let it be, man. People who think there are literal toll houses above our head are scientifically wrong, and interpret the doctrine in a weird way, but does it help their salvation or not?

Polite sage for funposting but seriously.

And then you guys complain about the Ortholarper meme…

Man go cry to vice news or vox i don't care.

Didn't Seraphim Rose mention that the toll houses can be interpretated as metaphor?

You're the perfect example of Ortholarper. muh KGB coronel, muh based Russia, etc. etc. Putin of course is also like that, using the church for his personal gain while he invades Orthodox countries like Ukraine and Georgia (even supporting freaking PAGANS like the Abkhazians)

I thought Seraphim Rose said the tollhouses were somewhat closer to symbolic than literal. It's more heuristic than descriptive, no?

It's definitely not dogma though.