Updating Guns for Poor People

So SCCY can be kept I guess.

S&W Airweights have generally been around $330 lately.

CANADA NO

smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-9-shield-0

Also note that the original Shield subcompact is now $400. I have one of those as well, and I have never, ever had a problem with it that was the gun's fault. Trigger is mediocre, but can be replaced. Pricey for a budget gun, but worth it if you can afford it.

smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-bodyguard-38-no-laser

Another S&W piece. They are famous for their revolvers, and I have this one as well - although I have one of the original J-frames from the good old days before 9/11. I don't know how my old girl stacks up to the new ones, but I have faith in S&W's ability to not fuck up a revolver, one of the oldest and simplest guns to make properly.

mossberg.com/category/series/590m-mag-fed/

This looks promising, but I've never held one, much less fired one. I would fucking love to have a 21-round capacity slug rifle, which is exactly what this should turn into if you can rack the thing fast enough. Assuming Mossberg did their job properly, it should.

The only prohibitive factor is price. $800 may not seem like a lot to some of us, but for the especially poor poorfag it may as well be fifty grand.

I would rate it worth it if it works FLAWLESSLY, and I desperately want to believe it does, but having never used one I can only speculate. Second opinions are needed.

Just to drive this home; your SCCY NEEDS TO BE OILED AND CLEANED CONSTANTLY OR IT WILL HAVE FEEDING MALFUNCTIONS WHILE YOU ARE BEING BULLRUSHED BY OBAMA'S SON. IT IS A SHITTY LITTLE GUN, BUT IT IS CHEAP AND IT WILL WORK IF YOU MAINTAIN IT RELIGIOUSLY.

mossberg.com/category/series/maverick-88/

This hardly needs to be said, but the Maverick 88 is a wonderful piece of machinery. I had this(sold it to upgrade) and while I did have to take it to a gunsmith when I first got it, it was used, and I never had another issue with it.

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gunbroker.com/All/search?Keywords=beretta 1201fp

The Beretta 1201fp is an excellent autoloader that can be found for usually under $600, but be warned that it is discontinued. You may have a hard time finding parts.

And since I know jack shit about anything besides the guns I listed, I refer you now to Lord Harrell.

Lord Harrell:
Far superior to hicuck45 tbh

smith-wesson.com/firearms/mp-9-m20-4-compact

Going back to the Shield; the newer model, linked above, is well worth the extra $200 and a blatantly improved version(higher capacity, better trigger, still concealable). If you can afford to wait, get the better one. But if you need to defend yourself NOW, don't be stupid. Just get the $400 one.

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Should we put optics on the list? they make such a huge difference

Also it still says "gun jesus approved" under the cleaning kit

The Interstate Arms Hawk doesn't appear to be very common online. The few places I can find are all sold out. Shame, since the reviews were all amazing. The Mossberg 590 can possibly be replaced with the 590M and the Shockwave can be added. I was thinking of adding the Kel Tec RDB since I saw one for really cheap at a gun show the other day, but they appear pretty expensive on Gunbroker, so I guess that's out of the picture now. (Mad I missed a deal now.) IIRC, Kel-Tec Sub 2000s are usually around $500, if we wanna add them (idk if they're any good). Majority of Sig P365s are ~$500 on Gunbroker and they're good guns.

Tokerevs are still pretty cheap (~$200 per gun). Ammo is pretty decently priced too.

Opinion on adding Walther PPS M2 to the list?

palmettostatearmory.com/walther-pps-m2-9mm-pistol-black-2805961.html

$269.99

Single stack 9mm, magazine capacity from 6 to 8, fits the same role as the S&W Shield but at a lower price point.

Pros: decent trigger and ergonomics.

Cons: low aftermarket support.

My sub2k seems to function fine, but I don't shoot it nearly as much as I want to. Got a few feeding malfunctions the first time I shot it but those only happened with an aftermarket 30 round mag of dubious quality. I got mine very, very lightly used for $400 (PO supposedly shot it once, didn't like it, and sold it back to the LGS a week after buying it).

The biggest problem is finding one in 9mm. 40sw models are dime a dozen it seems, but it took me almost 3 years to find the 9mm one I now have.

For shotguns, I'd think the Midland Backpacker would be a strong candidate for the list. You can get them for about 130-150 in 410, 20, and 12 gauge. They should be running options now for different barrel configurations for rimfire setups as well now, but their site is down when I last looked. I own a 410 backpacker, and it works pretty well.

My turkroach ATA NEO was $300 which is pretty good for an autoloader 12 guage. I havent shot it nearly enough to give a good review yet but id like to say:
The charging handle needs to be pulled back further than it “feels” is far enough, dont know how to describe it but it hits 2 walls when pulling back. I was getting a lot of short stroke issues until i found what was causing it. Once i figured that out it runs great. I can see that being a huge issue in a tense situation though but it only took me one range day to figure out the problem

Police trade in glock 22s are everywhere, often for $300 or so. The only problem is

That is a problem. .40 works but expensive compared to 9. Could use an aftermarket barrel but that increases cost.

The gun at my CCP class was a 40 cal Glock converted to 9mm. Instructor mentioned it malfed all the time and it would only ever be used on the range as a result.

Guess it could.

You're right. Gun.deals can only find a single in-stock listing, and it looks like they're putting it on sale to clear the listing. Wonder what happened. On the plus side the Stevens 320 looks to have gone down in price about 20 bucks.

I'd say not now but maybe much later depending how much the cost swings, they might become so cheap that the aftermarket barrel could be worth it.

Are chicom chest rigs still viable/sensible as poorfag kit? The SKS versions with pouches for stripper clips are still pretty cheap, but prices have been climbing for the AK version. Right now you would only be looking at spending 10-20 dollars more for something new, even if airshit. There are a number of simple PALS chest rigs that are going for less than a chicom at the moment, though the quality is up in the air.
Surplus US ALICE and Bundeswehr LBE isn't too expensive, so those are options too.

What are the prices on them? You can still get surplus LBV-E and Italian clones for less than 30 bucks, and those hold AR mags while being able to mount an ALICE belt for all the random kit you want (canteen, more ammo, ect).

Agreed. The 9mm barrel in a .40 works but for low values of "works". Could probably improve with replacing the recoil spring and extractor but at that point it's a project gun rather than a carry gun.

Ruger security 9 priced right at 300 usually, sometimes all the way down to 250 on sales. ecelebs shilled the fuck out of it when it came out, but its gotten no major press one way or the other since. Would it be a worthwhile addition? Does anyone actually have one?

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As an aside, we need to do one of these types of image guides for getting into reloading. Shameful doublepost.

9/11/01 was done and over with. Food is for the living.

Plus, a lot of those people should not have been working for multinational corporation in such a building in the first place.

Chink 81 rigs are still around 20. Swedish 304 pattern stuff is anywhere from 10-15, comes with two pouches (five mags a pouch), the suspenders and a canteen pouch. Also its alice compatable.

Hickock45 should be deleted

Been thinking about it, though most companies, Lee, Hornady, RCBS have a starters kit with pretty much the basics down and yes that includes many warnings on how to not be a dumbfuck like playing with primers, or smoking around the reload table.

Already planned to.

The list was more for concealed carry pistols than anything larger, even Glock 19 size. The new Compact model might qualify though.Mr. Gunngear had a fairly serious issue with his original, though other reviewers seem to be fine with it. Any thoughts?

I was thinking of something that showed the absolute bare necessities to reload, those starter kits have way more than are actually required, as well as a lot of junk that gets quickly abandoned or replaced in my experience. I'd like to distill down a minimalist kit, and perhaps also a gucci set up as well.

To be fair, the list already has a Hi Point 916 on it, which is fatter and heavier than a Security 9. I think those mid glock 19 size pistols are extremely flexible for a first/possibly only gun. They can be carried, not the best for it, but then they're also good for HD as well.

Then a classic lee loader or whatever they call em these days, all that is needed with that is a rubber mallet. That is the literal bare minimum for reloading.

Recommend making suppressors out of solvent traps.

twintechtactical.com/solvent-filtering-components/wix-24003-24744-napa-4003-4744/

And suppressors that poors can afford.

rebelsilencers.com/sos-hunter

Also this one for $200.

blackacestactical.com/product-page/pro-series-56-po-boy-suppressor

The problem with the lee loader kit is that it is entirely caliber specific. It makes sense if you only ever load one cartridge in small quantities, or if you need something very portable. For people who want to load several different calibers or load quicker, a press of some sort is more economical.

Don't you have an illegal firearms database to be making?

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...

Thing is, if we're talking hi-point tier poor a lee loader is the way to go. When you're someone like me with ~20 calibers to load then yeah a press with a scale and a powder feed is the way to go.

Should there be sub-$500 .308s added to the list?

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not really, they tend to be more expensive for both the firearm and the ammunition you use and this list implies the buyer is a relatively new shooter and is defending himself against nogs and wiggers. 5.56 is better for beginners than .308 anyway.
When the taxman comes a'calling with class 4 body armor head to toe than maybe we can create a different thread about that. but for now this is what we're doing.
The goal of this list is:
"You need to defend yourself against the scary darkies nubile user?"
"well here's this picture so that I don't have to write an entire paragraph for you"

the real question is should cheap optics be listed? Because I am not that familiar with cheap optics.

I never understood this meme. 5.56 is better for new shooters when these shooters are women or

Type 4 is proof against .308. Hell type 3 is also proof against .308. You're going to have to invest in a .338 lupua, .300winmag or .50bmg to defeat type 4 in one shot. Your best bet is to just compromise the plate with several well grouped hits or hit them with a shot slug which while it won't penetrate even type 3A, the impact alone will incapacitate anyone no matter what they're wearing.

Basics of shooting gyro. Its far easier to get someone to get them down with a cartridge that isn't gonna whump them around. Unless they're built like Otto Skorzeny I'd stick to letting them play with smaller stuff first.
t.guy built like Otto Skorzeny

Type III plates are easy to pop with .308 if you know how to lathe out brass. Mind you bullets fragmenting upon the plate is another issue in it self.

I would never trust a 5.56 in Greek terrain. You need a rifle capable of shooting across hills, at enemies covered behind rocks and pine trees. A war here wouldn't be focused on cities and villages. It would be Afghanistan 2.0
I expect combat in American landscape to also be at long ranges due to the amount of flat land you have.

Also people who think wars are fought at

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This isnt a shtf thread

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Leg meta is real

The amerifat meme is real.

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Do you even /ck/, bro?

Brilliant. Where were infantry wars fought at ranges greater than 500 yards?

Only a problem for weak wooden american houses. Here everything is concrete. You're also a faggot if you live in a city and have neighbors across the street.
You seem to have already forgotten the 2 wars where your 5.56 turned out to be absolute trash and made even your cucked military consider going back to superior 7,62 or go with 6.5mm.
You also seem to think 5.56 is lethal at 500 yards - it really isn't. I wish I still had the screencap of troops talking about needing to shoot sandniggers multiple times to take them out

is it even legal to own a semi-auto .308 rifle in Greece? inb4 black market

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Just shoot him in the face or legs retards, fucks sake.

Every one since vietnam.

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Face the facts, get past the theoretical dope table and what do we have? 5.56 ball has problems with stability and accuracy in many types of conditions at various ranges, it doesn't matter what the dope table's bullet drop number says, the damn things coming in tumbling. Even if you can get 62 grain ball to be somewhat accurate enough to hit things at 550 meters today, wait for the wind to change and it won't another day. 7.62 ball may not be super duper accurate out of a standard battle rifle at 1,000 yards or meters, but the bullet is coming in stable, the same thing cannot be said of 5.56 ball out of a light machinegun. To put it simply, a man with a battle rifle and service M80 ball has the difficulty of inherent accuracy issues of a standard combat rifle, figuring out his dope in the field during combat; but his dope table is valid. Reach out long enough in battle and a good dope won't fix the fact your 5.56 is all fucked up and losing accuracy at ranges of 500+ in many instances.

M80 standard ball is a poorer choice for 1,000 meters, but its valid. Standard 5.56 ball of either weight is not. "But muh 20 inch barrel 75 grain match bullets" doesn't change the facts of many shorter barrels with much lighter bullets. Even then the 7.62 is superior. Let's also remember that 7.62 has better barrier breaking abilities at longer ranges, it still has some heat when it smashes into things at longer ranges where the 5.56 does not.

I use 308 for home defense. Soft points don't keep penetrating forever, they run out of steam not too long after hitting a living being, the bullet expands violently and loses shape and force. And Tyrone will be so dead you won't have to worry about him anymore.

Remove inrange Karl and Ian false prophet shit.

I hope shit hits the fan and your final meal is your leather shoes because you turned down a pizza MRE.

No, but if you're willing to go through the bullshit paperwork and shooting clubs, you can get yourself a bolt-action

M885 is designed to penetrate a residential brick wall with enough velocity intact to penetrate a flack vest. Unless you live in a fucking bunker a .308 will cause quite a bit of collateral damage indoors. Even if you live in the middle of bumfuck nowhere you still run the risk of overpenetrations hitting family and pets.

I don't seem to remember any problems with 5.56's range in both Iraq wars. Would you have wanted to go into Fallujah with half the ammo but the ability to engage targets at 1000 yards? And what about the based Russians who never make a single mistake in hardware procurement? Why are they using 5.45x39 and 7.62x39 while 7.62x54r is reserved for designated marksmen and machine gun teams? The wounding potential of the round or lack thereof only came from using projectiles built for 20 inch barrels being shot through 14.5 inch barrels hence the M193 rounds being regarded as lethal "poisoned bullets" by the VC and anyone else on the receiving end of them out of the correct barrel. Plus there are plenty of anecdotes in WW1, WW2, the Korean war, Vietnam, ect where people were struck by multiple battle rifle rounds and didn't go down. Its the same brand of fudds and climber generals who want to solve some massive problem that doesn't exist to get promoted and make a lot of money by having stocks in whatever company owns the proposed 5.56 replacement.

Opinions discarded

"In Iraq, troops that engaged insurgents at less than 150 yards found that M855 rounds did not provide enough stopping power. In addition to not causing lethal effects with two or more rounds, they did not effectively penetrate vehicle windshields, even with many rounds fired at extremely close range." - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56×45mm_NATO#SS109/M855

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Army fags had a fucking problem with that 14.5" barrel. Jarheads with their muskets not so much.
Yeah if you're using FMJ's, most hunting SP's tend to vaporize.

Sage for OT.

The 1.0 shield can often be found on PSA for $250. I bought mine in January and I think it's still on sale for that price.

The amount of "much 308" and "muh stopping power" fags in here is telling. Rather have more ammo not less. And since you aren't forced to use M193 or M855 just run Brown/Silver/Golden Bear SPs or HPs. They do nasty stuff to gel blocks out of an SBR, what do you think they'll do you?

remember user, you and I are and we do, but poor user currently isn't. This thread is about getting poorfags into guns suitable for home defense and conceal carry, not getting Zig Forumsommandos into other guns they do not have or are not currently using.
this thread is gonna go nowhere but off the rails till the rest of you understand this.

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Not an argument. I'll ask this part again: If the Russians literally walk on water and have never once in their entire history since 1945 made a single procurement mistake, why do they intermediate cartridges on all of their line rifle men and only use full power cartridges with designated marksmen and machine guns like the Americans?

Well done, you didn't read the post ether and think that ice picking is an inherent problem that comes from the cartridge and not because they used a projectile not designed for such a short barrel to save money in the same fashion that made people think the M16 is inherently unreliable.

Russians have made many mistakes, using their shitty 5,45 is one of them.
The ideal military would use an AK-107 clone chambered in 6.5 creedmoor.

My very first rifle was a .308 and I was just fine; but other people in my home found it extremely unpleasant. I think it varies person to person.

Unfortunately it was a PTR, so definitely not worthy of the budget list. But I HIGHLY recommend this rifle otherwise.

Since the ARs lister are in the $450 range, perhaps it would be feasible to add the PSAK, since its roughly $500.Is there anyone here that has experience with that rifle? Sage for double post.

That goes through barriers too well.

fucking burgers and their paper walls. my house outer wall is, like, 80cm thick. this house survived 2 world wars and probably austro prussian war too

That's a fair point.

Houses are made as cheaply as possible here to save on construction costs. Trust me, I'd love to live in brick, but even basic houses like that can run into the millions because of this bullshit housing bubble that just won't fucking pop.

Worth taking the Makarov off the list?

I've got one and it's a great gun but hardly budget these days. Ammo isn't cheap either.

Jesus Christ. The average house here, with basement, garden etc. costs roughly $250,000 - 300,000 here.

Likely.

What the other user didn't mention is that it depends on the area, new York, California and Arizona tend to be more expensive, but states like Kentucky, Georgia, and Iowa are cheaper

Who tf wants to live in Greece, though?

Get some freedom, sheepfucker.

And that's another reason why red states are turning blue.

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Yup, and then they'll ruin them and try to flee somewhere else.

Aren't lemmings wonderful?

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Better to replace it with a TT33 clone. 7.62x25 is roughly double the price per shot of 9mm, but the guns themselves might as well be harder hitting Hi-point c9's in almost every way, save for being decades older. Roughly $200, handle like a brick, can be used as a brick if you run out of ammo, etc.

There's places in the US where you can buy a decent sized home for $20k-$30k, albeit in a shit neighborhood. Amazingly, a lot of them aren't in or close to big cities.

Tokarov clones common in your area? Don't see them much around me.

Parts of Houston in not-entirely-shit neighborhoods are ~$80k for ~1.5-2k sq. ft.

Some home builders have started making studs every 14 inches, not 16. I was looking into building a new home and they suggested I do that to bring down the cost. Fuck that, if I'm building a home, it'll be done right.

sage for off-topic

I think you mean 24". That's usually reserved for weaker interior walls. (fuck that though)

If any carpenter sells you on studs further than 16" than they're trying to fuck you to save themselves building costs. unless you're trying to frame in doors or windows in non uniform spaces.

This thread went to shit cause all the noguns started posting like they knew shit

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Back on topic, if we wanted to include bolt action .308 something like this would be useful:

grabagun.com/ruger-american-rif-308win-bl-sy-22.html

Still need an optic and no irons included, though.

Don't drop your Tokarev though unless you want a new peephole in a random part of wall. Century's homemade safeties are garbage, and the firing pin free floats with nothing stopping it from hitting the primer. I guess a Romaniab Tokarev clone is ok if you can find one, since Cugir integrated a proper safety.
Problem (or benefit depending on what you want) with 7.62x25 is that it's a poor man's 5.7. I've seen it go through refridgerators on a drop fire.

They have a pardner 12 guage pump at most walmarts for 140. Case dismissed.

There are dozens of cheap but good shotguns that really, really ought to be on this list. Just today I bought a pristine Rossi 12ga w/ sling and sleeve for literally and only $100. If >b-but single shot, still, you can get a pump Escort 12ga for $150, or tons of older, good Remingtons for $150.

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Seems like a good thing to list, especially now that the Interstate Arms Hawk has vanished, but I can't find anything about it other than it's Turkish.

I don't see single shot being a problem if you use a slug or something, put a fucker down for good, or at the very least enough time to reload.

Savage Axis XPs come with scopes already bore-sighted.

savagearms.com/content?p=firearms&a=product_summary&s=57261
cabelas.com/product/SAVAGE-AXIS-II-XP-W-WEAVER-SCOPE-RIFLE/1849999.uts

Yes, 24, not 14. I'm retarded.