Why didn't Germany, or any other nation since, ever adopt this remarkable rifle? Not only would it have better accuracy and efficiency in the field but cashless ammunition has been shown to be superior to conventional cased rounds. To top it all off, it had a sturdy and unique look that would be imposing to enemy troops equipped with more common arms.
So what's the deal?
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*caseless
Water fucks up caseless ammo, unless it's still in the storage cases.
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True but I hardly see that as a deal breaker. It is a draw back but one that can be easily avoided
what are cook offs for $200?
And the biggest one:
There were plenty of things that made caseless not fit for front line infantry use, but the time of history was simply not permitting ether with German reunification happening at the same time. West German defense spending was always inadequate even during the war. The DDR had so many more rifles and bayonets that the G11 was nearly cancelled in favor of using AK-74s before it was just cancelled until the G-36 came along which mysteriously had the same bayonet lug as the AK-74. The idea of them getting a proprietary cartridge where they would have to build an ammo stockpile from scratch instead of using free communist ammo or leaching off of NATO is a pipe dream in and of itself.
I don't see cook off and fragility of caseless being a massive problem with proper training for operators. Historically speaking the reasons you gave for West Germany not adopting it make sense in that context but surely another country or Germany at a different time later on could have done it.
With some refinement I think it would be highly superior to the G-36
why do you think Russians aren't running around with AN-94's?
When the ammunition itself had the tendency to crumble like a really stale cracker on the best of days, I would have not wanted to be some poor bundeswehr guy having to deal with a bricked rifle if the cold war went hot.
The G-11 is pure garbage hype. If there was ANY validity, SOMEONE would have adopted it, SOME company in the US would have developed a similar round and/or gun for the civilian market. NOBODY did, and for a new "improved" gun and cartridge its amazingly never actually seen real use outside of testing. Amazing that the only reason people think the gun is great is because all they hear was hype from marketing and never any real world data, or experience from people who've shot it.
Its the advantage of never actually having been used in combat or service, thus never having to be actually tested in the real world. Its the advantage of being a paper project. Speculation of what it could have been can be exaggerated to insane levels. It means we have none of the real problems and disadvantages, only the marketing and hype.
It was such a bad idea that its buried 20 feet deep. It failed so badly that its only brought up by Strelok's on weapons image boards. Its so bad nobody is actually looking to bring it back.
Range was only ~430 yards with the 4.7x33mm cartridge, which means you're a pretty much a dead man in combat outside CQB. Great accuracy, low muzzle rise with 3 round bursts, carry lots of rounds. If only you could get the bad guys to stay in range…
People just like to play make believe with the stuff that is (conceptually) new and unusual. People want it to be good, because it has been marketed as cool. It brings several new things to the table, some of them good, some of them horrendous. But people that have never concsrned themselves with arming an actual fucking country, logistics, compatibility, etc, they tend to overlook bad things (heat expulsion, conceptually new cartridge that is brittle and can jam the rifle beyond repair, etc, anons have posted above), but exaggerate the advantages because they are cool, and people want them to be cool.
said no one ever
It's sort of mentality that makes people buy shitty things and then have a full blown buyer's regret.
Because it's a piece of shit. An ambitious piece of shit, that was an interesting engineering project - sure - but still a piece of shit by every other metric.
There's so much focus on small arms when it matters jackshit to the overall war effort.
All the fund spent on G11 can be better spent on tanks and artillery.
tanks and artillery won't win a war by their efforts. pipe hitting door kickers will wreck everything that makes the enemy live.
Hope that's a joke m8.
k. I like mortars as much as the next guy, but unless you're gunna nuke the general area, you'll have to fight some CQB.
Yeah, sure, but G11 does not offer a direct, substantial advantage in CQB.
And I assure you, CQB is not the important part of the battle, it's clean-up.
Broseph, that's all it offers.
grimace.jpg CQB is just one part. Wouldn't you like some close air support from some fast movers? No you'll just stick with your sub 500 yard carbine. start the countdown till you're dead
Dude, in MY army, it wouldn't fucking infantries calling for air support.
It would be armored collumn supported by infantries who call for artillery strikes.
oh. you don't have a clue. which is nice because it means you lose.
The real funny thing is that two goddamn mobile howiztler can do the job of an A-10, and they still would be cheaper.
Air is good transporting, scouting and anti-air. That's about it.
Yeah right. A10s will kill you face down, dead. You can't stop them no matter how hard you try.
Except if you have cheap ass MANPAD or simple AAA trucks.
You are either a kid or you are trolling.
Never done squat in the real world, EVER. You just die in the merry go round because you're dumb, like all the rest.
"403 Forbidden" from 2003
That's great. Say you got one of thousands of A10s, you still lose. Stupid demon infested idiot.
Would it be feasible to convert the G11 to support custom proprietary cased meme ammo or would that be retarded and impractical?
It'd be nice to retain at least 40 or 50 rounds/mag like those FN bullpups.
While the G11 may have been horribly impractical as the primary service rifle of any major military, couldn't it have seen some use by Saudi mall ninja spec ops teams just like FN's bullpup funs do?
If you look at the complexity of the action you'd pretty much need to completely redesign every component - to the point where it would be a completely different rifle under the case.
Possibly, but if you're looking to design a gun cool enough to get some Saudi richfag to play dress up with his security forces than I'm sure we can do better than that.
Are we doing another one of these?
Flechette ammo was found to be consistently inaccurate, completely unable to penetrate barriers and did minimal damage on a hit compared to nearly anything else
If you want a plastic fantastic space gun from that era, then vid related is infinitely superior. Just make a traditional non-flechette projectile and you have something that really is a great rifle. If the ammunition works as advertised.
There are people here who know a few thing about firearms, so I fear we'd end up with something that might resemble a working concept if you squint hard enough.
That's all true, but the G11 doesn't use flechette ammunition.
But the G11 didn't use flechettes.
I might have found a niche for volcanic ammunition: an alternative for .22LR. Use an electric (or peizoelectric, if you can make that work) ignition system with the ˝primer˝ being part of the bolt head, and now the cartridge is even cheaper, because you don't even need a case. Of course this rifle would be a training weapon first and foremost that you use in a range to teach the basics of marksmanship.
So better range than an M4 Carbine?
A-10 is immune to grenades from SFs and Stingers are hundredfolds more expensive than grenades of equal yield also nowhere near a panacea vs CAS.
Hate agree with the *nglo, but he's completely right, you know.
The G11 would have needed another decade in the oven to even bear a semblance of functionality. All we got was a proof of concept that dazzles all the little gun nerds but would get actual soldiers killed in the field quicker than just giving them spears.
Pretty shit tread, OP.
I think the east German pseudo-AK might have been better and cheaper to adopt than either the G11 or G36.
Can you think of a single reason not to? I won't push it if nobody can be arsed, but would we be better off with some kind of gyrojet, metal storm style stacked cartridges, or flechettes for the caseless sci fi ammo it's loaded with? preloaded barrels filled with stacked gyrojets (which spin stabilise themselves so shouldn't need long barrels to be accurate) that fire flechette submunitions? Or is that too retarded even for this?
The Bundeswehr contemplated adopting the millions of East German AK-74s and converting them to 5.56, but they didn't want to do it because "oy vey, it's one of those evil Russian guns".
I thought the Russian went and took those guns with them?
The actual german AK-74 were of high quality and were shipped to Iraq.
Anyway, I think even the G36 can be a good rifle, but it was intentionally sabotaged by the higher up of the Bund, which is why H&K managed to win the lawsuit and G36 didn't malfunction under any other countries.
Weapons aren't meant to be treated like princesses. Their supposed to work no matter what under extreme weather and stressful operating conditions.
There are still warehouses upon warehouses of nva surplus, untouched.
Fake.
It failed spectacularly during tests against M16.
Funny thing that during ACR trials in US military found G11 is matured and reliable system having no issues in users experience and maintenance areas. Main problem was that M16 was much more accurate and effective rifle.
The soviets (that operate in wet condition 11 months of the years, to the point it's a problem even on normal ammo conservation) came up with the technical solution for that ages ago: the spam can.
They are. Some units do seems to have enough to outfit companies with.
On the video is a VDV recon company from a Separate Airborne Battalion (498th or 499th) in Khabarovsk - bumfuck in the middle of nowhere).
It's the same as the AEK-971 and the ADS (amphibious rifle), they do exist but like VALs and VSSs or previously the Gorzas, they're made "one by one" by small scale technicians gunsmiths rather than actually mass produced.
It's how they have so much exotic firearms, they go all the way, special forces have specials needs, therefore they get specialized weaponry made by specialized workshops at another degree of quality.
Meanwhile the regulars get the most bog standard shit as possible made with "acceptable" tolerance as the goal is true mass production on a stupid scale.
So basically the colt ACR should have won???
And it had only very limited from the M-16 so it could have been adopted with limited cost and retraining???
Hell just shooting the new ammo out of normal guns would have worked too!
Burgers are insane.
Welcome to burger military brass meets politicians and lobbying.
It's a miserable shitshow full of incompetence, greed, and poor decisions.
Why do you think just about everyone who's not a crayon eater is either cynical or an alcoholic?
The same reason militaries around the world didn’t adopt semi-autos as soon as they were invented. It is unproven tech that is expensive to get into. The Cold War ending meant that no one else in NATO would ever bother to spend the money and effort on a new cartridge. After Germany dropped it, it had been in development for nearly 30 years. At that point it was a huge money sink that no one would ever adopt, so H&K just let it die.
Was addressed in the 70s from what I read, and was not a large enough problem to stop Germany from isssuing the rifle. Given the history of German polymer, we would have more likely seen a problem with the gun literally melting.
It's being retired though.
Wonder what would happen if some dastardly natzee were to get ahold of them.
So it has a muzzle brake right in front of the forward housing. But the gun itself is free to recoil inside the housing. Except now it can't because it will get stuck on the muzzle brake, causing a malfunction.
I think I just found the one and only flaw in this game.
Wrong. They are getting re-winged again.
Was the F-35 insufficient yet again?
Brass cases help extract heat out of the gun.
If cheap Asteroid mining was a thing would every small calibre firearm ammo type use tungsten boolets?
You still have to take into account the time and effort required to make those projectiles. If I'm not mistaken, then tungsten has to be machined.
(OP)
You're forgetting that tungsten also destroys barrels.
JUST make the barrel from tungsten! Or alternatively do the sensible thing and wrap the tungsten in a different metal, preferably copper.
Congratulations, you just got a rifle with the weight of a machinegun and the reliability of a 3D printed pistol.
Tungsten is brittle and heavy, and would not withstand the stress of a rifle barrel.
Would cellulose casings work? they've got to be cheaper than plastic.
It's not like my post has a second sentece or anything*…. ba… baka!
Why the fuck are you on this board?
Cellulose is Polymer and it all depends on the hardness/elasticy.
Misread him, sorry.
S-sorry.
Truly the greatest FOSA activist of our time.
To be fair, the bakelite of old has been improved upon and now much sturdier polymers and alloys could be used in place of it, which in terms would put it on par with most modern cased ammunition.
An idea I had is to make the rounds like a warhead penetrator (where a copper cone turns into a bolt of plasma) and use some small but volatile explosive as the charge for it. With this kind of design, star wars blasters may acually be a possibility. Theoretically it could even be used in space if it had an electric ignition, physics permitting.