what does Zig Forums think about Deism and the Jefferson Bible? it's basically christianity, but with all the magic bullshit omitted
What does Zig Forums think about Deism and the Jefferson Bible? it's basically christianity...
This thinking being behind it is what makes it blasphemous and the Gospels aren’t “the Bible” anyways. You shouldn’t tamper with a holy book in which you don’t believe.
It most certainly is not, it is barely a step above atheism. Deists are not Christian in any way, shape, or form. I say this even as I have a friend who considers himself a member of that heresy. Because of this I was subjected to reading one of the worst books it has even been my displeasure to hold in my hands; Deism, by Bob Johnson. That was the most poorly written piece of apologetics/ attacks on Christianity that I have ever witnessed and I'm still upset about having endured reading it almost a year later. His assertions, like the assertions of Deism, are childish, nonsensical, and come from the weakest understanding of Christianity and literature imaginable.
Not even once
It's pointless except as a slippery slope to atheism. Reject God and most of Jesus' teachings lose any foundation and will be substituted for feely-goody nonsense.
Utter trash. I honestly don't get the fascination atheists have with deracinating anything mystical from holy texts and presenting "humanist" fairy tales instead, so it just becomes some dumb "dude just don't be an asshole to other people lmao".
Same with AC Grayling's "The Good Book".
It reminds me of Chesterton's remark about Ernst Renan and other authors who like to "sanitise" Jesus and St Joan of Arc from all that embarrasing divinity stuff but presenting "what really happened", saying something like
Because it absolves them of any responsibility to better themselves as human beings because it allows them to define "good person" as simply someone who is inoffensive and doesn't actively annoy other people, understandably an attractive thought for your average anti-social neckbeard since they have around 3 face to face conversations a year with people who aren't fast food cashiers.
It's removing all the nasty parts of Christianity that tell them they're NOT perfect the way they are, they need to look at themselves and attempt to better themselves in a process of striving towards the transcendent perfect truth of our reality which is God. No, that is too much trouble. Why not just say Jesus message was "Everyone is perfect as they are, health at all sizes, gays are great! As long as you're a meek, inoffensive, boring person whose most interesting feature is having a level 100 World of Warcraft character then you're doing great, don't change!". That way everyone is happy right?
Deism is just shorthand for "atheist materialism for people who feel uncomfortable outright denying God", as the OP's snipe at "magic bullshit" makes plain. If you were to take deism to its logical conclusion (no one does this), you would literally just end up with gn*sticism. In any event, it is utterly anti-Christian.
what magical bullshit?
I suppose, but I still don't get it. For lack of a better term, it's just such a bad faith way to live.
It's like tearing the ending off of a book because you didn't like it, and pretending the rest of the book is great, even though you still know what the result is.
Not exactly. I don't agree with Deists but according to wiki:
So, they believe God is the source of morality, and they believe you can discover/find God by observing the creation. This is good. They don't believe in miracles/God's interference, that's bad.
They are materialists, but they aren't nihilists. They admit the goodness of God, they just limit his power- in some ways, it's a childish answer to the problem of evil.
The very basis of Christianity is the supernatural. If you’re going to be a Christian, you’re going to need to accept that existence is not limited to the natural world. Deism is foolish. God did not simply set everything in motion and then decide to do nothing for the rest of eternity.
It's basically christianity but with no resurrection and thus meaningless.
If Christ wasn't who he said he was then there is no reason to follow christian ethics over any pagan philosophy.
You can't eliminate resurrection, miracles and "all the magic bullshit" and keep Christianity.
You cannot be a Christian and not believe in the "magic bullshit". The entire premise is believing in the miracles of God and the Resurrection of his son and the promise of everlasting life that comes with the belief.
Well since God did incarnate and God is trinitarian then anyone who rejects this revelation is an atheist and follows their own idol.
We follow the teachings of Christ because He is God and therefore always right.
If the Masonic faggot who wrote that book things Jesus isn't who He says He is then He would be just another philosopher meaning that Plato could be right and He wasn't. It would be a matter of choosing of philosophy school.
But since Christ is God He is correct and His teachings are true above any other man.
I like it. Seems legit.
What's wrong with theism minus revelation?
Believe in a personal God, creation, morality, afterlife , miracles , etc. Just not a particular scripture/revelation.
People will be rewarded according to their works and saved by faith in God aka their obedience to virtue. Live virtuously, golden rule, moderate carnal interests, live by reason and faith.
So Unitarian Universalist then?
Because it's literally the worst parts of both Christianity and Atheism. you have a God who knows all the wrong you've ever done, wrong that can never be naturally atoned for, and nothing you can do about it. instant hell every time.
So you think anyone who doesn't have an explicit belief in the atonement is going to hell for sure? Children/babies and people who never heard of the crucifixion included?
Not every deist believes in the same thing. It’s a blanket term. Some deists do believe that God intervenes, some don’t. They’re much better than atheists and agnostics.
Submit to Rome heretic
Unbaptised babies aren't going to heaven since they can't desire to know God yet therefore baptism of desire doesn't even apply. They go to the upper parts of hell were they live in an eternal natural happiness.
What are you LARPing about? Who told you this nonsense
Correct me if I'm wrong but here do you think the limbo of infants is?
Leaving out that miracles arguably count as a form of revelation, let's consider the implications of the deist God. This God created the universe and humankind, and knows everything about us. He therefore knows that the human heart longs to know God more than anything, and that longing is by His design. He knows that our knowledge of what is right and wrong is inferior to His, so that without His guidance we are lost. And knowing all this, the God of deism still refuses to condescend to reveal Himself to us at all. Not one prophet, not one stone tablet, and certainly not an Incarnation of Himself. This is why deism deserves the comparison to gn*sticism: because the "deist God" is a more incompetent (if not outright malign) divinity than any spooky snake monster demiurge that the Greeks ever came up with.
They change too much, the actual truth is timeless.
Some seek, most don't. Even your scripture says: [there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away…]
God changes hearts and instructs us internally, he has all of nature to use as his revelation for us, not simply explicit written statements, which can be twisted and corrupted and interpreted in dozens of ways.
Not sure how this follows at all. Are you saying the only way God can change hearts and instruct mankind is via the KJV?
The incarnation only lasted for 33 years after which the invisible and ineffable Holy Spirit took on the work of guiding people….and not just via scriptures and texts.
You tell me. What sources are you getting this stuff from?
Disordered behavior on the part of many doesn't change the fact that all humans are only truly satisfied in God.
This isn't the deist position, though. "Changing hearts" is supernatural intervention. If God reveals Himself to us privately, why not publicly, as through the prophets?
And natural law is good, but it cannot be sufficient. The Greeks spent lots of time considering natural law, and they got a lot of good ideas out of it. They also buggered young men left and right.
Again, I agree 100%, but this is not the deist position. Deists do not believe in the supernatural workings of the Holy Spirit.
Recall that Jefferson once called the doctrine of the Holy Trinity "mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus".
Sure, people ought to desire God, but most don't, their hearts are twisted. 'The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked;'
I'm talking about theism, a personal God, without prophets/scriptures.
If God can instruct us personally and moves us internally, and if the signs of his power are all over creation why put so much stock in Prophets? I understand prophets as philosophers, guides who remind us of God and virtue and metaphysics.
But this is different than Prophets who come bearing a set of beliefs completely unique to them, completely unverifiable by any outside metric, and then saying Heaven and Hell revolve around believing in their particular and inscrutable message, and anyone who doubts their message is a heretic and a pariah and hellbound.
I think those accounts are vastly exaggerated, often times them admiring the male form, or wrestling naked, or going to public baths is taken as evidence of homosexuality…
I'm just talking about a Theist God, minus a series of prophets bearing messages that put your soul's fate under a metric you will never be able to verify or deduce without appeals to their divine authority.
Because there's no reason to believe that the deist god is anything like that. Lacking any revelation what argument could you bring to bear against me supposing that the deist god devised this life and universe so that it'd be even more amusing when he rapes the souls of the dead?
Because man has some of the truth in him and we can recognize truths about God by intuition and reason. if you had no truth in you you would not be able to discern true revelation from false and any prophet could deceive you with rhetoric.
But we know right and wrong so if a scripture said God thinks rape is good on Sundays you would know that it's false in itself without any need for revelation to the contrary, no? Or if scripture said there are beings more powerful and righteous than God you would know that's false as well, without any need for revelation to the contrary, no?
And we believe God to be perfect by intuition and reason maintains that there can be no pettiness or selfishness in a perfect being so God is all good and ever merciful. Those who seek him and bear good fruits have nothing to fear.
And so God has given each man the truth in his soul and enough reason to use it and express it, and also the power of prayer for further assistance.
Deism is basically atheism because it denies Providence. God is no longer God, but a super powered engineer. It’s an outdated belief system, if you ask me. Deists might as well become secular humanists because I see no difference betwixt the two.
That book is a monument to Thomas Jefferson's disgraceful pride and hubris. The fact that it is in circulation at all ought to bring shame upon all his descendants.
Someone's been reading too much of Dante's fanfics, that's whats gone on here.
The only thing I think that can even justify Jefferson in this horrible story is the fact that he only made the book for his own personal use, and only after his death did people begin to circulate it. Sort of like Charles Dicken’s gospel for his kids
Sort of. America is a Christian majority nation, but our laws are secular.
How to identify something that isn't Christian.
You're a smart cookie, I like you.
Liberalism (and Materialism in general) in a nutshell tbh.
Literally a fallacy, thanks for playing.