Ramblings of an Insomniac

I'm a protestant on the way to marrying a Catholic, and being exposed to Catholicism my whole life, I have to say the divide is not nearly as strong as people play it off to be.

Now first, I want to set some divisions down – basically all Catholicism south of the US is heresy, period. I went to a lot of masses when I was younger, the homilies were halfhearted at best, and it being a primarily Hispanic congregation we celebrated just about every backwards occult feast and tradition that exists down there. Santa Muerte and a lot of folk medicine and witchcraft is very focused in the Catholic tradition, and none of it gets spoken against too harshly by papal authority as far as I can tell. That's the big reason I distrust the current pope, although I was a bit fond of the one before.
Outside of South America though, the Papacy itself is probably the main issue most still have with Catholicism when they really think about it. Not the fact that he heads the church, but his quasi-divine status. The supposed inerrency of the Pope on spiritual matters doesn't really jive with historic reality, and it all just seems like deification of someone who should be regarded as nothing more than a man.
The issues of icons and veneration is the only other (Lutherans believe in transubstantiation afaik, although I personally don't see that in the context of the cited passage), and I think a lot of that is the fault of the aforementioned Latin and Hispanic Catholicism (although the various Marian orders over the years haven't helped). I've had some profound spiritual experiences in places like The Grotto in Portland, despite being of the persuasion Servites border on heresy, precisely because of that border between veneration and worship. I wear a Saint Benedict's medal, because while other medals focus on asking the dead for intercession (something I think is harmless, but don't buy) his is a powerful statement. Even if based on myth, the whole "get behind me satan" prayer is a comfort, and in my respect for the saint it does point my eyes upward. I wouldn't take that veneration so far as to recite prayers to those people, it doesn't sit right to me, but so long as I'm not made to do it, neither of us is made to stumble, so it's acceptable. If the church could divorce itself from the blatant idolatry of the South American church alone, I think it would be on much more amicable terms with the stricter bible belt of Protestantism.
That and avoiding the movements that want to elevate Mary to "co-redemptrix" and all that nutty shit. I don't think immaculate conception is a vital issue, but come on, she had other kids, you can argue around them being hers, but what's important is she was a normal mom. If she wasn't, it'd be unreasonable for Jesus to be held as a perfect example, because he wouldn't be representing perfect humanity. He'd be representing another, transcendent humanity we could not hope to emulate.

Short those big three though, the divide shrinks no deeper than that between Baptists and Pentecostals. Where I grew up they shared a softball team. The ins and outs of the theology differ in some respects, but Catholicism is just a megachurch that's been around a few centuries longer than Cornerstone. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but fostering so much division when there's so much alike just seems counterproductive. I live in a place where many of the bigger churches are vastly different in practice and style. It's uncomfortable much of the time for members of one to visit the others. We all share our young adult community. Sometimes the speakers are powerful, once in a while they're bullshit, but we always work it out together, and as time's gone on the churches have just gotten closer – socially and theologically. Idk why the Catholic Church can't, at the very least, attempt the same (besides pure stubbornness or complacency).

Anyways, hope that ramble is coherent, to bring it full circle these are all things my girl and I have discussed over the years. She's the one that got me open to the idea and intent of icons (still not the practice) in the first place, I'm the one that opened her eyes to the Hispanic problem (we live in a very Catholically white community, she has her whole life, I grew up in California). Together we've kind of reached a theological synthesis where we agree about most things, but I was curious if anyone thought the same way (if I'm not too disjointed, I'll clarify in the morning if I need to, it's almost 6 AM and I'm finally tired, but my brain died hours ago). Anyways, tell me why I'm wrong and all that and pick my brain, I'll respond when I can, I'm really curious.

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What did my Contracts lecturer in Law School like to say : you pay your money and you take your choice.

You have to make a choice. This requires discernment, discernment requires the Holy Spirit, and God helps the humble.

Let go of what you think you know and be receptive to the knowledge of God. Pray, pray, and pray. Don't be deceived by Satan though. Cross reference any "inspiration" with what the Bible teaches, and then audit that with sound & traditional interpretations.

I'm not gonna read anything that the author himself calls a "rambling", much less one dealing with such a dead old horse.

Mary does not talk to God, she does talk to Jesus who she is the Mother of we ask Mary to pray for us and ask Jesus to ask God to forgive us our sins. I agree it has gotten a bit out of hand but when most of the major miracle of the past century involved Mary it is a bit understandable.

Believing the Saint can not pray for us means you do not believe in life after death. The Saints are alive the Statues in the Church of Saints are set their to remind us that man can achieve life everlasting.

You have no idea what that is apparently. No one is arguing if she had other kids the argument is was she Mary born without sin.

The Divide is massive because of the Sacraments it's the reason an Orthodox can receive communion in a Catholic Church they never would but they are not barred from it but a Protestant can not.

yeah, interfaith marriage is for lukewarms. if you were strong in your beliefs you wouldn't want to marry a catholic and if she were strong in her beliefs, there is no way in hell she would marry a heretic. no offense

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Interfaith marriage is for conversation of the other spouse. But besides that, yeah lukewarm.

It's not that I don't believe the saints can't pray, that's something that's clear. What I don't believe is the necessity of "praying" to them specifically. If they're praying, it means they have some understanding of what's going on, they don't need our help. Jesus came to be the intercession between us and the father, what's the point if we need another layer between us and Him?

I did confuse the issue of immaculate conception and perpetual virginity however. I don't think either are necessary or scripturally grounded, it just seems like tradition gone out of hand. It is legitimate heresy to suggest Mary is on the same level by any measure as Jesus – God incarnate in flesh.
Really the only sacrament that effects most people that causes divide is the issue of communion. All the other sacraments are either co-recognized, like marriage and baptism, or could do with more protestants participating in some way, like the anointing of the sick. I just don't see why the specific observance of communion has to separate us so deeply.


I'm strong in my beliefs, I just know enough to know the church proper is more than it's divisions. Our observance may be different, but the things we believe, the vital things, are the same. She may believe some extra stuff that I don't buy, none of it crosses into heresy, nor does most of mainstream Catholicism, and even most of the papacy to be honest. There are branches, like the Servites, that teeter dangerously on that edge, but Pentacostals have their snake handlers too. We worship a merciful God, one who sacrificed his own son for an inept race of people. Do you think he is going to send his children away from him for some difference so small as whether or not transubstantiation occurs during the communion they all observe? We are of the same book, the same God, the same redeemer, the same message, why then do people like >>683284 frame it like a relationship between an Israelite and a Baal worshiper?

It just looks to me like half-millennia old grudges festering for festering's sake, rather than allowing any genuine attempt be made at reconciliation.

Become Catholic then.
Never mind our retarded South American brothers.
At least two of three South American bishops are excommunicated every year.
The heresy of liberation "theology" has already been condemned by the Congregation of Doctrine and faith (aka the successor of the Holy Inquisition)

You dont pray to them. You actually say "St. Something pray for something"
You don't need to pray for them. We do because we feel close too them and want to follow their example. Especially if they are the patron Saint of your town, you feel close to him.
Or the Holy mother since she looks after you like a mother and many people me included feel very attached to her.

stopped reading here

Ignore South America, they're all converting to televangelism tier denominations anyways

Prayer definition:
a solemn request for help or expression of thanks addressed to God or another deity.

You are praying to someone that they may pray for you. You hold your hands together and give these people veneration and respect. You give them glory. It's different from asking living person to pray for you.

re: Holy Mary and the Saints, why do you think God would have a problem with our honoring them? This is not the same as idolizing them, which would be veneration for its own sake. When we ask these holy men and women for help – that's the definition of "pray", ask – we give glory to God by acknowledging the heights to which He has raised his servants. This is especially true in the case of the Blessed Virgin, who is God's absolute masterpiece. If I praise a painting you have made, and it occupies an important place in my life, are you not the actual object of the praise? the one who arranged the paint in such and such a way? We ought to acknowledge God's goodness wherever it is manifest – this is simply a matter of justice.

And as regards the Pope, it's obvious he's a sinful and fallible human being. There have been quite a number of sketchy Popes throughout history. St. Peter himself denied our Lord three times, didn't he?
The Pope is only infallible when he speaks Ex Cathedra on matters of faith and morals. This is a very rare thing, and it does not happen by any power or property of the Pope himself. It happens because sometimes not knowing for sure can present a grave danger to the faithful, or impede the Church in a serious way. Thus the Lord guides His Faithful that they might not err, and His Church that it might remain whole and healthy.

Seriously, I'd recommend reading into these problems you have with the Catholic Church. The reality is that they stem from misunderstanding and a lack of study. Get your girlfriend a few books too… If she were well-grounded in her faith, she would have already explained these things to you.

If she was a devout Catholic she would never marry a protestant (no offense meant OP)
Shes probably a social "Catholic" and doesn't even know 90% of what being Catholic means (like 99% of Catholic youth)

Boy oh boy you're gonna have some problems when your kids reach first communion age if your wife intends to raise them as Catholics. Catholic teaching says that in mixed marriages, kids must be raised according to the Catholic faith, I hope she is aware of that.

Yes, south american Catholicism is fishy. No, Mary is not a co redemptrix, that's not official Church teaching. We pray to saints because, as the Bible says, prayer of a just man availeth much and our God is God of living, hence people in Heaven are alive.

That's an insanely bold claim. Your personal anecdotes are not data.

True, though Irenaeus did refer to her as "the cause of our salvation". It's all very complex.

That's rather presumptive and arrogant.

True because of Her the salvation came to the world

I didn't mean it. I just think that someone who is a devout Catholic would avoid a mix marriage. That's my opinion, although I could be wrong and she's going to convert OP, but that rarely happens, especially when the Catholic party is a woman.

I don't think there is a problem with it in the right heart, I just think it's a dangerous line that separates "blessed woman" (something that all Christians would agree upon if asked independent of a denominational comparison) and "co-redemptrix" (a position, that while not prevalent has it's not-insignificant number of adherents in the Catholic church). It isn't idolatry in its intended use, but in its broad practice it often becomes such through simple miscommunication or lack of clarity to the lay member.

And even if the infallibility is confined to specific circumstances, the fact is it's a corrupt institution, just like any other megachurch, it's too big not to be. I don't trust protestant churches a thousandth the size most of the time because not even they can escape bureaucracy unscathed. It's not a model that can self-correct easily when the pope screws up. The fallibility issue is far from the only issue I have with the papacy.


The Servites have pushed for that in the past, I know most Catholics know at least that much better when it comes to messing with the Salvation narrative. Compelling argument for praying to saints though, besides the issue of directing your prayers at people rather than the one who can actually answer them…

The santaria bullshit is a small cult that I've only encountered in the American Southwest, oddly enough by edgy white kids one acid trip away from going full on neo-pagan. It's basically the church of Satan for Latin America, a loud mockery with no substance.

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You obviously don't spend much time in poor, urban, lower class South America lol, or you're just being pedantic because Santeria is a specifically black Cuban thing that got trendy like voodoo through musical references. Most folk medicine and witchcraft performed south of the border outside of like, native jungle communities maybe that haven't had much contact with the church involves bastardized Catholicism. The entire cult around Salvia Divinitorum is Marian in nature.

Sauce?