Pope Francis changes teaching on death penalty, it’s ‘inadmissible’

Really looking forward to it tbh
He predicted this already (for those who didn't know): catholicherald.co.uk/commentandblogs/2017/10/15/the-popes-remarks-on-capital-punishment-need-to-be-clarified/

Ninety percent sure he’s a closet homo.

I don't think according to some sources he is actually really annoyed at all the homosexuals in the clergy and is telling seminaries to stop letting gays in. The issue is the gay bishops who are ignoring the Pope in favor of promoting the Gay Agenda.

Here Punished Voris talks about it a lot.

All the big religions (except one that is) are bleeding followers and participants to capitalism. The Catholics for example haven't preached morals into a world in dire need of it and are instead busy gambling the real estate market for decades now. So of course now, while everything comes crumbling down, they desperately try to appease anyone even if it means pissing on their own scriptures and values.

This, and said fact was already a part of the catechism beforehand, they just changed it from "practically speaking, there are no points where the death penalty is permissable" to "the death penalty is not permissable." Sure people will point fingers at historical inconsistency but given the current culture of death I don't care; this is a firm stance on an issue that needs and iron, unbending stance.

That isn't what it said, it actually said;"an appropriate response to the gravity of certain crimes and an acceptable, albeit extreme, means of safeguarding the common good". The absolute state of Catholic casuistry

No, this is definitely a change in teaching. The previous canon said the death penalty was allowable in given circumstances but emphasized that these circumstances were practically non-existent in today's world - but if they were to change (say, war, societal breakdown etc), the DP could be allowed.

This change, however, is a categorical NO. We were wrong in executing Nazi war criminals and we will be wrong if, in the case society breaks down and we become unable to effectively hold dangerous criminals, we execute them.

The Church is supposed to be infallible and unchanging in the dominion of morals and this most definitely is a change in moral teaching. I am afraid of what might come after this.

Yeah it's actually all just 4d chess goyim. He does not speak against it, makes statements that can be interpreted as confirming the agenda(You were born this way, muh who am I to judge). I don't buy this. France is a terrible, terrible pope.

They are reaping what they sowed.

My first impression with threads like these is that most people posting don't actually have any concern over this and just "use" this polemically against Catholicism.

And I realize this thread is devolving into sin-posting and will probably be purged soon, but I'm hoping before that, someone in good faith can provide some sort of explanation for Catholics who legitimately find this as a head-scratcher.

Pretty much this. Francis seems to indicate that the death penalty is categorically wrong, which means that up until this point the Church has had a imperfect (forgive me if this is a poor choice in wording) understanding of when to appropriately use the death penalty. I realize that today we don't have God-ordained kings and so a different approach to the death penalty is needed for secular states that have a greater chance to err when making decisions on sentences and punishment. But here it seems that Francis is saying the Church was straight up *wrong* on this issue up until now, which as a hope-to-be-Catholic I know cannot possibly the right way to think about this.

pls help

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Most Catholics have been against the death penalty since the beginning. I fail to see the problem. Unless you're a blood-thirsty ragemonger, why is this a problem?

I WARNED YOU
I WARNED YOU ABOUT POPES, DAWG

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Because tradition and teachings have always allowed it, even if conditionally.

Tradition and teachings change. Maybe you haven't noticed.

They can be clarified, but not changed.

Apparently they can

ECCLESIA SEMPER REFORMANDA EST

Do you mean "big T" tradition? Because I was always told that couldn't change.
And for teachings, does that mean theoretically that anything not dogmatized can be changed?

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I take it maybe you're not Catholic? The teachings of the Church have changed a lot over the centuries. The best example is right in front of you in the OP. Pope Francis didn't pull this out of his ass, but rather altered something that John Paul II already put into place.

Well, yes. That's kind of the Pope's job. It's not like the entire Catechism was written by Peter on his first day on the rock.

So, tell me user.
Is the fact that sodomy is a sin dogmatized?

You have to define "sodomy". The Church holds that sodomy is homosexuality, but there are those who claim that any sexual act that isn't designed to produce offspring is "sodomy". So, it really depends on how you define sodomy.

therealpresence.org/archives/Chastity/Chastity_014.htm

Have an article.

Did Francis just admitted Hitler did nothing wrong?

Yes. Sexual intercourse only between a man and a woman married to each other is a dogma. Plus the commandment against adultery also applies.
If I remember correctly God forgive me if I'm wrong there was sodomite Pope back in middle ages. Even he didn't change that precept to his own profit.
I guess that even if you want something doesn't let you.

No.

OKAY. So the
was him talking to a priest who was molested for years by a bishop and was afraid of becoming like that bishop. It was taken so far out of context it is ridiculous. Yes a Gay man can get into heaven as long as he does not give into the sinful nature of his homosexuality that is his cross to bear.

In the Pope's defense he actually said he wouldn't judge a gay fag who was trying to come to the Lord provided he wouldn't sin again. But once again the meme news agencies only took the judge not out of context.
But now with this shit of death penalty I'm mad.

Which one of the 255 dogmas is that?

None. But the church teaching about death penalty goes back a very long way and this Pope thinks he should change it. It doesn't even make logical sense, since for example in France terrorists can escape from jail and kill more people. DP is essential in that case.
The true catechism of THE church already stated it would be permissable as last resort, what this Pope says now is that it never should be used.
Criminals today had a good day.

Don't know why THE came out capitalised. winnie the pooh gay phones.

even if what he wrote was right I would never be able to trust him since he was a known mossad infiltrator

Wake me up when Francis is gonna do another council.

Ordinary magisterium can be changed, extraordinary can't. In history, even ordinary magisterium was very rarely changed, but post 1958 popes went full nuclear.

Pick 2

Also, en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_executed_in_the_Papal_States
Shouldn't Francis be addressing the scandal today?

The only way out is that Francis is teaching error but then he's not infallible when teaching on faith or morals

He did address the scandal by declaring the death penalty inadmissible. What else do you want him to do? Apologize?

Reminder that Leo X anathamatised those who say the death penalty is wrong in Exsuge Domine

There is a clear contradiction between this and Francis’ actions. The ‘hermeneutic of continuity’ fake trads will defend this, but I see through their lies

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Throw bishops in prison.

But they just were changed. Unless Bergoglio is an antipope.

...

Oh but you see, he didn't stand in the right place, didn't say the right words, didn't wear the special shoes, and it wasn't the night of the full moon when it's in Scorpio.
Or in other words not ex cathedra

The problem with this is it's only true about the 1st world, and most Catholics live in the 3rd world

You want him to throw bishops from the 1800s in prison? Did you read the link you posted? The last execution was in 1870.

All the ones who knew about mccarrick and sat on it. Laicized, in prison

For the salvation of their souls, if nothing else.

What does McCarrick have to do with the death penalty in Papal states? Did you read the thread or do you just post about kiddie diddlers in every thread that has a pic of the Pope in it?

No. I'm saying the timing is wrong. He should speak on the scandal, not the death penalty. The RCC's moral authority is shot.

Diddling kids is obviously against the christian moral, there's no reason to even talk about it.

BECAUSE BISHOPS KNEW AND DID NOTHING
BECAUSE IT'S SCANDAL: IT LOOKS LIKE THEY HAVE NO SUPERNATURAL FAITH WHATSOEVER
BECAUSE IT LOOKS LIKE THEY HAVE NO FEAR OF HELL
THAT'S WHY
AND I SHOULDN'T HAVE TO TELL YOU

Whosoever shall shed man's blood, his blood shall be shed: for man was made to the image of God. (Genesis 9:6 DRA)

What the winnie the pooh is this cuck doing?

Your capslock just cost you all credibility.

So, the guy who sheds the blood of the guy who sheds the blood has to have his blood shed, but then the guy who sheds his blood further has to shed his blood. Pretty vicious cycle. It's a wonder we've survived as a species. Or … that verse doesn't mean what you think it means.

No you're missing the point. It's the wording that makes it so problematic. Against the death penalty? Fine, whatever, the Catholic church has always been for the sanctity of human life. It's this

What is this implying? That Catholic morality is subordinate to western culture? That somehow the Catholic church was wrong in the past and it knows that " the dignity of the person is not lost even after the commission of very serious crimes" thanks to liberal western ethics? This is a wedge in the door because it's testing the waters and seeing whether they can alter Catholic doctrine to something more agreeable to modern western culture. Make no mistake if this is accepted in a few years we will be seeing a change saying that homosexuality must be accepted as normal and natural because "there is an increasing awareness that homosexuality is the natural state of some individuals, inherited at birth"

Posts like this make me wonder if RCs even read the bible. No you know exactly what that verse means but you are more interested in defending your political institution than the truth.

amazon.com/Man-Shall-His-Blood-Shed/dp/1621641260

Your ordinary magisterium now disagrees

All of your claim rests on whatever this means. What emerged to disagree with data used in the original teaching? The idea of "awareness" increasing to leverage a change of doctrine is nonsense and lends itself to what you're saying but without the latter part explained your view makes no sense.
shitty argument

Which would be defying the Tradition. It cancels out.

I'll just leave this here

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Hardly. I've listened to liberals spout "mul slippery slope" for the better part of 15 years and we went from "Maybe gays should be allowed to marry" to "Child drag queens" in a matter of a decade. F*ck you and f*ck your slippery slope "fallacy", it's an entirely valid concern when you're living in clown world

His frustration is exceedingly valid here. Not only should he use capslock but he and every good Catholic should be pounding down the door to his Bishop's office to demand justice. What the pope has done by creating this dust up is to prevent people from talking about the pedo issue; many were calling for the pedo priests to be hanged, you see.

You poor bastards will be in my prayers.

makes sense

Feser's article.

firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2018/08/pope-francis-and-capital-punishment

Wrath is a sin and sin has zero credibility.

Quick rundown?

How do you know what they really know and what they really do.

Popes from 200+ years ago executed criminals so Popes now aren't allowed to call for abolition of the death penalty. That is literally the argument they're making. It's a childish and silly argument that contains zero knowledge of Papal history.

It seems that Francis is saying that capital punishment is never justified, which would not only run contrary to tradition but also the bible itself and God's judgment. i.e Genesis 9:6 and others. And this is prior to the "mosaic law" so you can't use the ceremonial vs moral split.

What Francis is doing is really not surprising given the trajectory of the Church post Vatican 2

Yep. While Francis hasn't declared anything ex cathedra, he's quite clearly guilty of a doctrinal error as Feser states.

The Vatican said that Francis had amended the Catechism of the Catholic Church — the compilation of official Catholic teaching — to say that capital punishment can never be sanctioned because it constitutes an "attack" on the dignity of human beings.

"Consequently, the church teaches, in the light of the Gospel, that the death penalty is inadmissible because it is an attack on the inviolability and dignity of the person and she works with determination for its abolition worldwide," reads the new text, which was approved in May but only published Thursday.

This wasn't a private musing. He's changing your catechism and the beliefs of the entire church. Enjoy.

If Francis' justification for abolishing the death penalty were solely pragmatic, he could get away with it. It's acceptable to say modern states aren't capable of justly applying the death penalty. He couldn't resist doing more than that, though.
This breaks the whole thing. Francis is claiming that the RCC previously allowed the death penalty because it had an inadequate understanding of the dignity of persons, and that all his predecessors with the possible exception of JPII were in error.

Isn't this the only consistent option regarding abortion? Either life is sacred or it isn't. I get that death penalty can be used to prevent the death of their people, but technically so can abortion.

No, fetuses are innocent and thus the punishments dealt to criminals have no bearing on them.

I've been considering becoming Catholic for awhile while generally looking into Christianity but honestly the twisted reasoning required to justify submitting to the Pope when he does stuff like this doesn't make sense to me.
So I see two options:
1) The Pope is an anti-pope and there's someway to reason your way to this through Sedevacantist logic (even though it seems to contradict the idea of "the gates of hell never prevailing against the church"). And in that case, if the people are just able to declare a state of necessity whenever and decide to go against the pope, what's the fundamental difference between that and people arguing for Reformation?
2) Or Roman Catholicism isn't the correct choice. I feel like I'm attracted more to its aesthetics and practices than anything else, because Orthodoxy always felt too foreign and decentralized and I've always been wary of Protestants not really having an overarching authority. However those mental blocks for me are far less glaring than all of the contradictions since Vatican II as well as the almost anti-Christ behavior of the popes.

Anyone have have any advice? I'm feeling pretty gaslit here.

I don't think I can justify supporting this Pope anymore, because it goes beyond political differences (which is how I've written it off in the past). What should I do, anyone have any good recommendations for stuff to read that might help me?

Become Orthodox. New Mass is literally masonic and this was proven by honest Catholics.

What crime have the unborn committed?
It is perfectly consistent to be against abortion and in favor of the death penalty.

I guess you crusader larpers better listen to your papa

So Jesus Christ deprived himself of his own right to life? Since he was sentenced to death by public authority

How stupid can you be to trust human authority? Only God has the right to kill someone

That is why papal infallibility is a joke

Romans 13:3-4
For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Hundreds of previous Popes also had no understanding of electricity, so should Catholics all get rid of their computers?

Yeah sure just like muhammad, hitler, stalin or any other dictatorship in the world

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Paul does not refer to individual rulers, but the concept of rulers.

You should read John Chrysostom's homilies on Romans 13 to understand better.

newadvent.org/fathers/210223.htm

The catholic church is a monarchy and has an individual ruler

washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2018/07/23/the-catholic-churchs-sex-abuse-scandals-show-it-has-a-gay-priest-problem-theyre-trapped-in-the-closet/

Frankly sounds to me like the church needs a little bit of a clean-out, no? A purge, perhaps.
youtube.com/watch?v=jcfHaBTp2Es

As for the OP , I tend to agree with this guy that Frank's liberalising is nothing more than a distraction and there are far more important issues to deal to.

But, what do I know: I'm just a protty

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i desperately want these homo priests to be executed. funny that pope francis now says that people can't kill these people.

gay people only care about disgusting depraved sex for the most part. have you ever heard of bug catching in the straight normal world? they are majority pedophile abusers, they are sick, ideally they should be stoned to death and publicly shamed. they are arguably amongst the most disgusting people in the world.

You should pray for the wrath and bloodlust to be lifted from you.

daily reminder that not all homosex are of the devil

… though their disease is …

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The physical details of electricity are not a matter of faith or morals. Stop being deliberately obtuse.