I can understand disagreements between the Roman Church and the Protestant Churches. But to actually write a caricature article against Lutheranism and Calvinism seems extremely childish and uncharitable to me. Here are some of the excerpts: So according to the author, anyone who believes in justification by faith alone lacks a “metaphysical” spirit??? I will grant that the religious libertine is such a person who believes and behaves in a manner that is similar to a brute beast, but there are most definitely Lutherans who are invested in achieving holiness in their lives. The Pietism movement is a testiment to that. How interesting. I visited a Presbyterian Church (PCA) a year ago that had a huge feast with a whole pig. No one was moping about the troubles of this world. Bitterness is the result of unforgiveness; traits that are repudiated in the Reformed tradition, so I don’t know where the author is getting his information. He is also playing on the old meme of Calvinists/Puritans having no fun, or thinking that fun is a sin. We in the Reformed tradition recognize the meanness and baseness of such pleasures. While it is okay to feast, and dance, and drink wine, and play cards (no gambling, of course), these things only bring temporary comfort to the body and mind; these things can never satisfy the soul, so why place such a huge emphasis on these things? Sounds like a intelligent course of action to me. I don’t see what the problem is. God himself plans his course of action in the world, so I don’t understand why we can’t do the same. That might be true if we are talking about some beastly atheist, but the Reformed tradition states that spiritual pleasures ought to be what a Christian seeks after the most. He seems very hell-bent on caricaturizing all Calvinists as bitter people, when he is conveniently forgetting about all of the bitter people within his own sect. How many stories have I heard about the bitter and wrathful nun or friar? The rest of his bullshit against Calvinism warrants no serious response; the author seems to have a gripe against the doctrines of grace since the criticisms of Calvinism compose the bunk of his article. He even goes as far as using ‘’American Gothic’’ to prove his point, despite the fact that picture has nothing to do with religion. Sadly, this mindset of caricaturizing the opponent is a theme that permeates theological discussions. How many times have I heard people twist and distort the doctrines of grace like the following: traditioninaction.org/Cultural/D015cpProtestantMentalities.htm
Also, this traditionalist reminds me of meme monastery and the super Diamond bros.
and then you actually read the Reformers and it turns out they just heap baseless calumny and teach lies about the Catholic Church
Have you even read Luther? Or understand what he did? He was a monk who rebelled and ran off with and married a nun. Only the "high church" protestants have kept most of the catholic understandings, but the entire spirit of the Reformation is colored by ditching implicitly catholic spiritual understandings.
there's about 4 centuries worth of puritanism in America to look back on and see that it's all true though.
Calvinism warrants no serious response, just read St. Augustine and go no further, no reason to buy into the Calvinist doctrine when you have Augustine.
Ian Hernandez
Not so long ago (let's say to about the 1960s) a kid cycling around a church was scolded for having fun and playing cards was frowned upon. Don't know how the reformed live nowadays but then again they're pretty sparse even in their former bastion of Friesland.
Evan Turner
Your entire religion is based on a man that due to his own inability to fight his own vices declared penance, confession and prayer useless. Have you ever read what Luther said and did? When he speaks how he's unable to pray without cursing? Or how he says he knows he's not going to heaven? When he calls Christ names when talking to his relationship to Mary Magdalene? How he ultimately died by hanging himself? Any insight into what he actually said and wrote will make it clear to you that he was most certainly not inspired by God.
As for Calvin, the very proposition that God, who is infinitely good, deliberately creates humans to go to hell and suffer for all eternity, which is a terribly evil act, is blasphemy of terrible proportions. It doesn't stand up to common sense and logic, and God is not illogical. Everything else you said about 'no fun' or whatever is just irrelevant. If your fate is already predetermined, whatever you do in this life is utterly meaningless since you're nothing but a computer program running whatever was programmed into you to run. The very proposition that God created such a system is just crazy, only a lunatic can believe that a God ordered the world to be absurd.
Nolan Young
I don’t give a shit about Luther’s personal life. Stop making theological arguments into a personal issue. I’m talking about people who believe in justification by faith alone IN GENERAL.
[citation needed] Also, what was the context of the scolding? Was he supposed to be in church at that time??? You’re leaving a lot of details out.
I’ll post an ebook on this very subject. Puritan attitudes about recreation were somewhat complicated, but it is simple minded to say that they opposed recreation across the board. Come back to me when you finish it
Excerpt:
So many activities were banned because of the perceived way people would exploit and pervert the activities, not because the activities were intrinsically sinful. Context is key
Jayden Myers
Hear here DO NOT DELETE HIS POST MODS HE ISNT WRONG
Austin Foster
Somehow, the ebook didn’t post: here it is
Luke Baker
It did stem from a personal issue, his issue with scrupulosity and not being able to control his lust, hence he concluded that nothing we do can actually stop us from sinning, so he declared works irrelevant when it comes to salvation. So he started speaking against chastity and how a man who doesn't have a woman isn't a real man, hating on monks, saying that prostitutes will sooner go to Heaven than monks, etc. It's really important to know where theological arguments come from. It's important to know the argument came from anger and personal frustration, not some interpretation of the Scripture inspired by the Holy Ghost.
Jason Anderson
Pathetic jab, I bet you actually had no idea how indulgences work, I started writing an explanation but then I realized I don't care what you think. Good luck with thinking that saying 'I'm sorry Jesus i'm a gud boy' will take you to Heaven.
Owen Jenkins
I will never say that I worship Kek not some buybull demonic jüden entity Also the Eucharist is technically spirit cooking. I'll pass thanks
Eli Lee
The citation is of my history teacher, and she can be backed up by history books. The context of the scolding was literally "no fun allowed", no matter how you think you are or your church community this was the actual state of the reformed church in the Lowlands and the source of all the "reformers are anti-fun" memes.
Thomas Gomez
Other historians disagree with your teacher. Try reading the short book I posted, and then get back to me.
Also, post a link that talks about the event that you’re referring to. There has to be extra context.
It’s funny to read these lies in a thread about how Catholics lie about reformers He never declared penance, confession, or prayer useless Have you You mean his response to Catholic traitors that was taken wildly out of context by those people, and now you continue to lie about this quote and Martin Luther, as your forefathers did? You’ve contradicted your fellow papists in this lie, didn’t Martin Luther declare getting into Heaven was easy and he destroyed all requirements to do it? Liar He died of an illness, you liar Same with you, you liar. Prepare yourself for hellfire
Nicholas Ross
Why would the mods delete it? They're usually biased to Cathodox posters anyway.
Henry Long
Also anyone thinking that Luther was ever just a reformer of Catholicism should read literally anything he said ever about the Pope. Dude hated the Holy Father with a passion.
Camden Lopez
Not him but "have you" is not an argument and Luther's table talks have a fragment where he says Christ became an adulterer with Magdalena. The major apologetics around this statement is that it's a fraction of probably a whole conversation, so there is no context. In my opinion the whole fraction is a context on its own unless his students (I thought Melanchthon noted this) decided that the rest of the conversation providing the context was irrelevant. Heck, maybe he thought it would've been funny to include uncontextual blasphemy? Who knows.
Brayden James
But Luther himself was a traitor to Catholicism, so you're saiyan that traitors to catholicism later returned to catholicism, betraying the catholic traitor, amirite?
Charles Hughes
Are you even a lutheran or a baptist on a big larp? I don't know any lutherans who care enough to even banter with catholics, it's about as dead as anglicanism.
Lucas Howard
Thinking about it, is this the end of the Reformation? The snake biting its own tail; the future of Protestantism is IFB's denying they are even protestants…
Meanwhile, the "Reformers" collapse completely to the non-denominational meme and just completely disappear!
Truly an ignominious end.
Xavier Mitchell
This was meant for this user and his “history teacher”
Zachary Gutierrez
What a pointless anecdote.
Robert James
Get a grip. The Reformation itself was literally a product of such slander aimed against the Church. Do you think traitors to God and Church deserve a fair representation?
That doesn't deny he said it though, only that the context is uncertain. Frankly it's irrelevant.
Carson Phillips
The reformers were stooges who opened the door to European nations consolidating power by unifying the church and state and making the head of both the monarch. See England, Denmark, Sweden, Norway, etc. The reformation was a bunch of heretics and poor theologians presenting themselves as useful tools for nations who were interested in severing ties with the Catholic church and forcing their populations to mix in worship of the Monarchy with the worship of God
Austin Edwards
I thought even Catholics consider Pelagianism a heresy.
In Luther's time there were a lot of unhappy monks and nuns who felt trapped by their vows.
click the supplementary pdf on the bottom. reformation was started by the reformers, but only succeeded due to collusion with secular authorities, a theme that continues to today btw
Jaxson Clark
additionally, all the data from the research here justifies nearly ALL the claims William Cobbett made over 200 years ago!
Try to discredit her all you want but your feelings won't change how Calvinism was in the 17th century Lowlands.
This is not an anecdote this is what was done by Calvinists when their kids had too much fun, especially on sundays IIRC.
Anyway why do you guys even care? Would you guys also get ass-hurt if we started calling you spice-sniffers?
Ian Hernandez
On second thought, don’t bother. You clearly don’t give a shit about intellectual honesty. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be making these sweeping generalizations about an entire theological group. You also would have given us a source for your assertions. I also presume that you didn’t read the ebook I posted, right? Piss off, false accuser.
Jonathan Moore
It's because they have read, comprehend, but do not desire to admit wrongfulness. The reformers, while some had mistaken ideas (beautiful holdovers of pure catholic faith) overall they were correct in identifying corruption, heresy, and willful sin within the "church".
When they refuse to acknowledge wrong doing: Cognitive dissonance on display.
To abuse any position within the church for gain is a grave sin. To lie to laymen about any matter of faith is a grave sin and heresy. To take their money on the account of this lie is another compounding sin and a reinforcement of this heresy. To lie again to laymen about a matter of faith and Gods judgement is again, a sin and a heresy. To then go forward and claim that doing this is okay is a lie and a heresy, and compounding further saying that those who rightly know it to be a sin and heretical are they themselves sinful and heretical is even further beyond the pale.
They can't mentally handle the idea that the reformers could be right on anything because it would force them to admit the truth.
This is how you get cults, when nobody cares about striking down your opponents arguments where they stand and with facts.
Camden Rogers
Not defending Luther for the man couldn't control his passions and thus had no right to lead anyone but, why wouldn't he hate the way the pope acted? Renaissance popes were extremely corrupt. The fracture could have been stopped before it started if the pope had taken Savonarola's preaching and message to heart.
Also, This
Eli Young
Catholic here (see, we really dont need flags). I have never in my entire life ever heard Catholics seriously discussing Protestants. I am sure that some Catholics must be really into worrying about Protestants, but I do not think that is a very common thing today. It would be like Catholics worrying about all the sects of Judaism. It is just irrelevant to how a Catholic life is lived.
At the church I go to every Sunday we choose a different protestant church in the county and pray specifically for that church and its members. But i think that’s mostly just because it’s a small town and all of those Protestants are our friends and coworkers.
Yeah no thanks. On another note the e-book seems to be about colonial New England. I'm talking about the OG Dutch reformed church where the no-fun reformed stereotype is still alive and well.
I'm not even false accusing, I'm just stating the facts why Calvinism has the no-fun stereotype whether or not you guys actually are no fun.
John Flores
Not really. You can either be a four point Calvinist, or a Calvinist who believes in annihilation.
It’s not that long, you lazy shit.
Seems to be?? It IS about colonial England! I brought them up because that is relevant to the Puritans, who were also Calvinist by large.
Saging because I’m done with this thread.
I don’t know anything about them. Nor do I care. There are extremists in every denomination.
Aaron Turner
Get out.
They weren't extremists, they were the original Calvinists, they were the people who defined the reformed church society together with the Swiss and are the source of all the no-fun stereotypes. If anything you guys might be a watered-down version of those spice-sniffers.
