Is arrogance the actual quality one needs to have faith?

Anyway, sorry to bother. I always do this. Make a dumb thread that I shouldn't. I simply will never be able to be christian, because I cannot reconcile the bible being anything else than another creation of man.

Feel free to delete the thread, I need to sleep anyway.

The fact that those people died in horrid ways but affirmed resurrection of Christ is quite enough. There were dozens of people affirming it and later, Jesus appeared publicly before ascension. Fact that it spread rapidly also affirms said notion. Only religion with similar spread rate was Islam but that was due to Mohamed literally bribing people with stolen goods from caravans and persecutions by military expeditions, as well as deception. Apostles on the otherhand, gor Crucified, beheaded, flayed alive, stoned and so on and so foth and this, without material gains. Paul even denied marriage to concentrate more on spreading the word of Christ (and this considering that he was notorious Anti-Christian pre-conversion)

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Congrats, you're starting to think, but you've just assumed prayer is a selfish activity. There are plenty of people who suppose so, but that's not the Christian attitude when it comes to prayer, that's the atheists in foxholes attitude to prayer.

Atheists in foxholes pray that the mortar shell will land in someone else's hole. Christians are supposed to ask for the safety of all the foxholes.

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No, you wouldn't.

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right, but none of that supposed evidence and hearsay would hold water in any fair trial. Is that how you would want your court case to go? Someone at the stand telling a story that they have no evidence of happening but an old book?

Nope, I have tried prayer in many forms. I once prayed every night for a month for my neighbor to be happier, has family to be healthy etc. I noticed no changes. In fact, his dog died and his daughter broke her leg.

Well, I can see why you would think that. But, I honestly don't know how else to go about asking questions. If simply not conforming to an idea before discussing it is akin to not actually wanting discussion on the topic is what you believe, I can't change that.

Thanks for the link, but generally I post threads like these to have an interaction with someone whom I can have a dialogue with, I know I could just hop on youtube and search away and watch millions of videos, but thats not what I am looking for here.

Also, thanks to the mods for being extremely cool. I just woke up, never thought this thread would still be around. The fact that it is, gives me a little more hope in the christian way at least. And thanks to everyone who takes this thread seriously, I hope to respond as seriously to your posts as you did mine. Thanks.

There's a difference between logic and Logic. You obviously rely more on the latter.

Paul was gay. He liked other men. He smoked pole. He rode the pale horse. That's why he was anti-Christian beforehand, and that's why he converted after he fell in love with Christ's very charismatic ass.

If you think it's evil/wrong for people to suffer pointlessly on earth then you must believe in a transcendent, unchanging Good.

from an atheist worldview there's nothing particularly wrong about a kid dying from brain cancer and then just disappearing when his cells disintegrate. What's wrong with matter changing phases?

If you think there's something wrong with this, you must believe in God.

I think you're the first one here to use the word stupid. I certainly didn't. Sorry you feel that way?

I've never heard that. Kind of seems counter productive to any rational discussion to be that edgy without proof sir.

I never said it was evil/wrong. I said that it seems that IF there is indeed an omnipotent god,and we are supposed to pray and be in contact with him for our benefit, it seems he is doing a poor job. Unless of course, as I stated, this is only for our benefit after we die. Then it seems that there is no reason to even live in the first place, if life is suffering, and you cannot change this for you or anyone else, and god will not care while you are living.

I would say it's non-Christians who have to prove an alternative theory, since Christianity obviously happened, and had a tremendous force. "And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith." This link briefly summarizes the alternatives to the resurrection: peterkreeft.com/topics-more/resurrection-evidence.htm There are also whole books about the topic obviously.
My line of reasoning would be, by reason alone (no divine revelation involved), God exists (proven by Aquinas using Aristotelian metaphysics) -> God by its very nature can temporarily influence events -> Jesus Christ is the son of God and could perform miracles -> everything that Jesus Christ said is true -> Christianity is true

Maybe I didn't clarify what I was saying well enough.

I really don't think anyone will argue that Christianity as a movement ever happened. Afterall, I am speaking to a christian right now, on a christian board. Not sure why you are even using this as a response, but I clarified nonetheless.

I am saying, it would not be evidence, for someone to be on the stand in court, and use an old book as proof of jesus being the son of god, any of the miracles actually happening, and any of the promises in the bible being the materialization of words from a deity, thats all.

First of all, not old book, but old books. Bible isnt a one book, but collection of books. You have four canonical Gospels and numerous Apocrypha (mostly written by retarded gn*stics, but still), book of acts, Didache and so on.
Second of all, by this way you cant really have any knowledge on anyone, considering that most of the sources about historical figures come from old books, inscriptions and so on.
Lastly, as we said, people died for what they saw and facts about their martyrdom is recorded not only in scriptures but in sources like that of Tacitus and Pliny as well.

Mostly right. Prayer is preparation for death. Actually this life is preparation for death.

But prayer/worship make us better able to handle the sufferings and tribulations we face in life and also get us closer to God so that once we die we will be attuned to his presence (heavenly) instead of being afraid of Him (hellish).

The martyrs and saints all loved God but they still suffered and toiled in this life like anyone else, sometimes even more than we know.

Then it would be a hell of an unfair trial. We (the modern day world) has more evidence for the existence of Jesus than we do of anyone who lived at his time except Caesar.
You might as well question whether Peter or Paul ever existed. (People also wrote about miracles about both, and we know much more about Jesus than we do Peter or Paul or Francis of Assisil.) If you don't like religious references, how do we know that William the Conqueror and the Battle of Hastings ever existed. Well, England exists and traces it roots with an uncontroversial lineage to William the Conqueror, and we have some scant evidence from years later like the Domesday book.
In the end, the story is analogous, and there is a clear fact that needs an explanation: Christianity exists. You need to track things backwards, and that trail leads to a singular person who is the object of that religion, to whom much has been written, and relatively early accounts. These accounts not only had to survive contemporary scrutiny at the time – not all accounts did – but later scrutiny and research. The Dead Sea scrolls and other, 20th century archaeological evidence like the pools in Bethesda in John all conform with the basic reliability of the Gospels. Certainly one can quibble about details, but to dismiss this as no evidence…

to add to this, one of the views of Christianity on suffering is that it makes us stronger, Its like a fire that melts steel and makes it possible to forge it into a weapon. Some saints and monks were actually disturbed when their werent suffering enough, hindering their spiritual development, according to them.

one book, hundreds of book, an entire library, still. it is all just words, that really provide no evidence other than eye-witness accounts, ,these people cannot even be interviewed. There is no other case in life, where I would take someones word of the supernatural if they merely wrote it down and I read it.

Thats my understanding, but still I ask, why live life if it is suffering? There is no real incentive if you know the only REAL reason to live is to die and be happy then.

Not sure where you're losing me here, I am not doubting the existence of a man named jesus. Or his crucifixion, or even that its possible people saw him walking around after his death. This does not prove anything at all to me, other than there was a man named jesus, and he lived, died, and people claim they saw him after he died. Nothing can be proven about the supernatural aspect.

I can agree to this to an extent, but there is nothing about terminal illness and torture that makes the victim stronger.

You…do realize that information is transfered by words, right? Also, there's a one joke in my country saying that if two men calls you a teapot, you should start boiling. If there are numerous accounts on certain figure written down by eyewitnesses who knew that they would most likely be gored to death because of them, it supports the fact that the accounts are reliable. They gained nothing by lying. They lost their property, they were reviled by both pagans and fellow Jews. Most of them got tortured and murdered. They had to abandon their families and travel to literal shitholes like India and barbarian lands where they could get pillaged and killed off and basically only thing that perhaps saved them was that they didnt have anything to steal.
You are viewing it in a material way. We are talking about spirituality, not that suffering ill make you stronger in physical way. For example, Illness and torment are one of the last ways to reduce arrogance of the person and rethink his life due to nearing death. Its sort of a dropping bucket of water on dreamer/drunk/sleeper.

What kind of proof would be sufficient for you?

I also think that this post is bit relevant

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Yes, but proof is transmitted via method and independently verified results. That is why the term hearsay exists, you hear someone say something, but that is all it is, someone saying something.

Not sure which country that is, but that sounds like groupthink and totalitarianism.

I do not see how you came to that conclusion. Again, I am referring to the supernatural aspects, many men throughout history have been killed/oppressed etc. It is something one can believe. The supernatural aspects are less frequent, rather nonexistent throughout history or modern day in any verifiable state.

True, I am. Because that is all I know. And, I don't think of spirituality the same way you do I guess, I think spirituality is something you hold within - a way of dealing with life, not taking an account of a man rising from the dead and walking on water as fact.

Well, when it comes to miracles, resurrection, and the son of a god walking the earth. I don't think you can prove such a thing in an ancient world with no way of recording sound/light/geo coordinates/taking samples etc.

Proof of worldly things are easier, as we know things like that exist. we know men can start movements, we know men can become idols, we see this today, it is not so far fetched. But as for the more supernatural things, like I said, for one to believe this in any rational way, you would need something empirical, otherwise you are just foregoing your own use of your brain and just letting someone tell you to shut up its real, because i said so.

So according to you, empirical science is the only rational form of inquiry.
Let me ask you something: can you establish scientifically that science is a rational form of inquiry?

Except that only one Gospel is written by non-eyewitness Luke, who was Paul's scribe. The rest three Canonical ones are written by apostles who saw Jesus in person after crucifixion.
Its more something about that if people are saying something about you, there maybe some truth in it. Like I said its a joke.
Except that they didnt. People like Mani who got flayed alive were basing their faith in subjective conclusions. It is easy to get carried away with subjective opinions and take it as true. This however doesnt apply to Christianity, because apostles based their view on objective fact, instead of their personal opinion. Resurrection either happened or not and dozens of people witnessed it or not. There is no other way around it. In fact pagans considered that apostles were retards for believing in this, but they converted because they witnessed their endurance to torment and death, supporting this view.
No offense, but I mostly think that you are a bit prejudiced and on a way of becoming Dawkinsoid in terms that in early stages he stated that he would become faithful if provided evidence but as time passed he stated that nothing would convince him in existence of God because he would dismiss these evidences also. He basically admitted that he has animosity against God, instead of simple disbelief.

No, but it is the only one that I know of to consistently produce results that benefit me in anyway. I am speaking to you, on screen through tubes spanning miles and miles because of empirical science.

Well, according to the philosophy of solipsism, we cannot even prove that we inhabit the same world, let alone any absolutes about how to investigate/utilize it. For instance, we are are both seeing our posts through stimuli processed by our brain from our optical nerve, we do not really see reality. Therefor, we cannot even prove we truly exist in the same world. So, in short, your question really is part of a deeper philosophical quandary.

Ok, but that still does not change the fact it is hearsay you are taking as fact. and yet AGAIN, I will say that I am doubting the supernatural aspects, I have no doubt men existed and have anthropomorphic experiences which they spoke of.

Right, I understand. Still, that may be right sometimes, but not all the time, and its a dangerous precedent, the kind of thing that dictators use to subvert nations.

So they say. And if you wish to take their word unquestioningly, that is what makes you have faith in Christianity - and entirely your right. But I cannot, as I know men today who are honest, some who are liars, some who have agendas, and some who are plain out of their mind. So I cannot believe such accounts without knowing these people personally.

sorry about the capslock, I wasnt angry or yelling, I would have used bold/italics if I could.. .wait, this isnt the other chan. i can do that.

That doesn't make it rational though.
Yes, I am basically trying to prove to you that metaphysics are necessary. Science itself makes several metaphysical assumptions, so you cannot go and say 'I only believe something if you show me a recording/samples/etc' (This is called scientism by the way).

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True, as rationality is subjective. But I can put it in more simple terms. It keeps me alive, well fed, and functioning. I have yet to find some supernatural account to follow that can do the same.

Right, so see my above response.

btw I will be on this ID now, need to be on phone for a while.

But if people who were eyewitnesses of the event are ready to be tortured and murdered for the objective fact they saw, it becomes convincing.
You're right, thats why the view on the apostles are essential in this part. They basically gained nothing out of this in reality. In fact they got tortured and killed off for it, they lost their families, they had to abandon their past lives and become alien amongst their own people, traveling to four corners to spread the Gospel. Where their life would be ended miserably. You can easily dismiss Mohamed or Joseph Smith, because its clear even in their scriptures that religions found by them had personal gains for them. You cant state same about apostles.

None taken. You are actually a rare case of a visitor who wants actual discussion.

Based on my personal experience it wont last forever (no not in a death way, as I stated above, humans are immortal so e dont cease to exist). It gets detrimental to ones psyche leading to depression and perhaps even suicide. How you view it is that you basically want to be an animal and nothing more. But you are more than that, you are made in image and likeness of God and not as mere animal to eat, drink and die to cease to exist.
To be honest, you are the only one who said this from my experience. I know Christians who admit that they are Christian because they find it "comfy". I mean, its a discussion for another topic, but Christianity is an only religious system that holds humans in high regard, if that says anything.

now looking at my post, maybe I have formulated certain parts in wrong way. English isnt my first language, take note.

Maybe to you. All it proves to me is that people were convinced of something. Memory, especially memory is a social entity is flawed. Individuals have a hard enough time remembering things correctly, but in a social scenario, with peer pressure, feelings of conformity etc, it is extremely unreliable.

As for the rest of your comment about the apostles, I could be convinced of that being true, but still. It just means that they believed something, it doesn't convince me of the same.

And np, I really dislike the internet nowdays, rarely go on "chans" much anymore either, kids are way too disrespectful and ignorant, it used to be like that but there were also people who cared to have discussions, thats becoming rare I agree.

Right, but these same people work jobs/and earn a living based on a society built on numbers/measurements/and science.

...

Yea, well I was just being honest. And a few posts later I pretty much stated the futility of the thread and that I probably shouldnt have made it, further said I wouldnt care if it was deleted. But, people have been kind enough to respond since then, and I am happy to have a discussion regardless.

Also I do not look down on anyone for what they believe, as long as they arent killing people etc. of course.

And again, I think that you fail to see differences between believing in subjective concepts invented by your own thoughts and objective fact or event. Example of Thomas clearly shows that even apostles werent eager to believe in it. If so many people, eyewitnesses were convinced in the event, then it must be true, considering that people died for what they saw.
Except that theres more to life than merely eating and drinking. Especially considering that you wont need any of it after death, which will happen someday. Another thing is that what you state doesnt oppose to what we state. Yes, science is a great tool thanks to our Godgiven powers of reason to use for benefit of mankind, sure. But it doesnt make it universal principle. You cannot take one certain principle and make it so to apply to another. Asides this, theres one thing I personally find Interesting: I had math teacher who was preparing me for the exams at university. He told me that Mathematics may be described as a religion on its own in terms that there are certain axioms that you cannot explain in conventional way on which entire geometry is based. That is the dot/point. Technically it is immeasurable, but it is taken as an axiom and entire geometry is based on existence of the point that later creates lines that create plains that create space. It's been a while since I had interaction with mathematics so I may have forgotten what he exactly said, but the point is that even science bases itself on faith (in certain axioms).
I have to go now for a while, maybe other anons will continue the discussion.

also take note that modern day science was largely developed in Christian world by devout Christians such as Pascal, Newton (yes he was Nontrinitarian but still), Kepler, Mendel and so on.

I do understand your point, I even expounded upon it saying we cannot even agree we are living in the same reality, so nothing truly ever is real, or "verifiable" in the absolute, verbatim, and philosophical sense.

But I think we both agree on the notion that we tend to prefer when we have something that we think to be evidence when buying a car from a car salesman, or voting for a politician. We seek something that we can verify, whatever it is that you want to call that.

Somewhat besides the point of what I'm trying to say. You mentioned things that are entirely within the realm of man as we know man. I'm just saying that believing jesus was the son of god, parting the red sea.. etc. It is entirely hearsay.

We're taking about whether science is the only method of rational inquiry or not. If anything your argument proves the main reason why people defend scientism so much nowadays, because they are fascinated by the very usefulness of recent technological developments (by the way, this purely empirical way of thinking has many drawbacks because it's based on the complete domination of man over nature. But that's a different topic for another day I guess).

Those modern philosophical problems like solipsism only arise if you have a purely materialistic conception of the world. You think there is gap between mind and reality because you think there are no universals.

Well, actually, other people were talking about that - I was just kind of going along with it because it's interesting.

Well, if you had taken the time to read all of my replies (they are numerous and lengthy at times) you would see I think quite the opposite.

And regardless of such, it doesnt in anyway prove the biblical supernatural stories, it merely proves that we know absolutely nothing at all. So, if you want to use the logic that sense we dont know anything, maybe the bible is real in its entirety, that seems like a valid course to take. I just don't think its very practical, so state it kindly.

since*

to state*

Then great, you should look into Scholastic realism. I guarantee you it will not disappoint you because it is purely based on logic.
where did I say that?

Well, I can certainly look into it, but I am not really lost for direction, or seeking answers. I have accepted life as is, it sucks, and were stuck here because of our instincts to survive and not kill ourselves. There is no happiness/contentment without self delusion, religious delusion or regular delusion. And I know I can't ever do that, so life for me is just random vice after vice to distract me from this truth.

Sorry, just assumed since you were posting here.

Wow that is sad user. I really wish you could find God. Your kind of thinking is exactly what happens with modernity, people have no purpose because we have lost God. To evaluate modernity you have to distance yourself and one of the things that help is honestly religion. It's not something you will figure out in a day or with some posts though. Why not start with with some apologetics like Tim Keller.

OP here, new ID probably.

I'm middle aged almost, I've read pretty much every philosophers work that has been written, from helenic times (socrates→plato, epicurus, marcus aurelius, seneca etc..) all the way to modernity (blackburn, searle, burge, chalmers, simons, chomsky yada yada).

I have tried meditation, diets, workouts, self help, medication, therapy, and the rest of the infomercial fodder. I have examined pretty much most religions in existence today, from obscure ones still practiced in sparsely populated east asian cultures, to buddhism and of course christianity.

But, for the thinking man (i do consider myself somewhat of a thinking man), there really is nothing that will ever make him forget that he is ultimately here alone, waiting to deteriorate, watch his loved ones get sick/deteriorate, and no one can change this. The only solution people seem to have found is to believe in an afterlife, which I can see why they do, when it comes to the burden of torture until nothingness, I cant blame people for throwing logic and common sense out the window in order to dampen the pain.

I see I see… you are very learned with all these books… but tell me… have you tried reading THE BIBLE? you know, giving the benefit of the doubt that if God really does exist, he might try to talk to you through it??? Or have you even read it simply as a work of art or philosophy??

you know who you remind me of? you remind me of the woman bleeding for 12 years trying to be healed by every physician and spending all she had only to get worse. She heard about Jesus, and then she decided… hmmmmmmm. maybe if she only touches his garment, she would be healed. mind you back in those days a ritually unclean jewish woman like her would be shunned - anyone she touched would also be marked for uncleanliness - so it was a big risk socially, physically, etc. (btw, history exists, and learning about ancient peoples will help you to understand their ancient stories you big nerd) But she sucks it up, because she has nothing to lose at this point.

And guess what, she was made whole.

How about you try touching His garment, aka His book, with your mind. Yes, the bible is not God, but perhaps searching earnestly for what you know you need, wholeness, he might just grant it for you, in your desperation, and in your measly faith.

For those that ask (on a mongolian woodworking forum), will receive. Seek, and you will find. Knock, and it will be opened unto you.

now that im thinking about it you should also read Orthodoxy by mr Chesterton.

also stop being an emo teen w muh big brains. You are alone, and its because youre choosing to be alone. You recognize the fleeting moments on this earth as for what they are, vanity. (read Ecclesiastes) The very fact that you recognize their futility is due to a higher sense, and "aught to be". A fish in water cant tell that its in water, because its completely submerged and surrounded by water. A person with no eyes has no clue what dark is. But you know how cruel this world can be, and thats because you intrinsically know a higher Good. Humble yourself and beg for mercy you big dingus-

For the proud remain always in poverty and misery, because His grace turns away from them to humble souls.

hey you ever think that while youre calling everyone who isnt having a gay emo session delusional, that maybe you might be the delusional one??? People in this thread have been giving you fat responses of eloquence, and you just brush them off without really engaging with what they saying w "muh atoms n proofs duuuuuh i cant trust my inner soul to ponder what these people have personally said to me personally, i need to see it with my eyeballs".
you remind me of the guy walking around his house, each room smelling like poop. the whole time the poop was on his mustache.

maybe you might react to my word vomit. Forgive me, i just ate a nice dinner after working all day so i dont have that prayer + fast amplified HOLY GHOST POWER tm, but hey God works in mysterious ways.

Seriously though before i go to bed ill pray for your dumb emo ass, thanks for coming by i can tell by your responses that you really want to drink from the water of life and Our Lord is good, im sure He will oblige as He has for me , your brother and fellow sinner.

God bless and forgive me Christanons for this terrible unedited mess

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Noooo…

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there is more than one way to read the bible. literalist Christianity is only about 150 years old

Fides et ratio. Faith is not the antithesis to reason, both are necessary. There is no logical reason that reason is of ultimate worship and blind worship should be met with skepticism. Human reason is fallible and common sense is equally deserving of skepticism.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fides_et_ratio

Thats actually not true cuz God wants us to contribute go His mission and bring Heaven to Earth NOW. Wouldnt what you said be gnostic? Puts spiritual over material at expense of material.

Not him but yes you can ask questions. This is good and keeps us on our toes and ensures we search for what we do not know. Actually very good thought-provoking thread.

OP, have you personally tried wearing a Miraculous Medal for a month to measure its affect on your quality of life? If you won't perform this one simple scientific experiment in your own life then you are simply looking for convoluted conjecture amd don't honestly care to try our persepctive reality has Christians. You're making fun of the menu but won't try the food, like a coward. I truly pity you OP. Relationships are so much more fulfilling after you stop trying to always be right and instead try to be truly nice.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Revelation 21:8
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

Revelation 2:11
'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

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This 100%. They think it's ridiculous to believe in God but its acceptable to them to believe in Karma, good luck, and ghosts. That's not even mentioning the mental gymnastics they go through to try and believe in things like the 'big bang' or 'dark matter.'

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Enjoy your ban again

There is no arrogance in honest prayer which is a way of communicating with God. The foremost thing a Christian should pray for is the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Sure there may be people who think of God as of a machine to fulfill their wishes. But if that is your concept of prayer you do not understand what the prayer is at all.
Stating truth is not arrogance. Believing in Truth is not an arrogance. Payer can be hardly an arrogance/
So the answer is no. Arrogance comes hand in hand with pride, a mortal sin.