Question for Orthodox Christians

Hey fellas, not sure if this justifies its own thread but here it goes.
What is the epistemological 'basement' of your belief that the Eastern Orthodox church is the purest form of Christianity, and constitutes the one true church?

I've been struggling with the schism for well over a year now. I'm not able to concisely explain why Orthodoxy, as professed by the Eastern Orthodox Church, is the truth rather than the other Apostolic churches, most especially the Catholic Church. The fact that I don't have any way of explaining to a 10-year-old why they're in the right church (without getting into theological/historical minutia to distinguish the EO from the RCC, OO, other apostolic churches, reformed, etc.) has been the largest barrier to my acceptance of your truth claim. This has lead to me to coming back to the Catholic Church and I've began living a sacramental life once again, but this EO vs. RCC debacle still isn't 100% settled in my mind and it's causing me quite a bit of strife and cognitive dissonances.

I can't faithfully rely on the argument that the Filioque is heretical because not only do some right-believing Orthodox Christians believe it's not a church dividing issue, but I'd be relying upon theological argumentation that is far beyond my ability to grasp fully without extensive historical/linguistic/theological training. Same goes with the essence/energy distinction. I can't rely upon a rejection of the Papacy because I'm not confident enough in my reading of history and there's quite clearly some teeth to the claims made by the RCC in Vatican 1&2 with regards to the authority of the Pope.

And yes, I realize we have this thread every day. And yes, I've watched every free Jay Dyer video on the subject. If I just go by 'feels', then I'm no different from a Pentecostal. But what am I to do here, other than go Catholic on the basis of authority?

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The Orthodox Church isn't the true church simply because they got their knickers in a twist about Papal primacy but when push came to shove and a theological difference arose rather than calling for an ecumenical council (Like what they say should be done to work out doctrinal disagreements) they just gave the western church the finger and "excommunicated" them.

Why wasn't the filioque issue settled the same way the Arian heresy was? Because the Eastern church wasn't acting in good faith and simply wanted to cut ties because it was politically convenient. That's all it comes down to.

According to the last Orthodox pope it's heresy, that's why he defied the emperor who added it and placed two silver plates with the Orthodox, original Creed in St Peter's cathedral. In the plates he added "I, Leo, put these here for love and protection of orthodox faith". Of course when he died the emperor placed a pope of his likeness and removed the plates. So much for papal infallibility.
The above fact disproves the papacy as well. Either you obey the pope or not. If you really believe that the pope is infallible and his word is the word of God demand from Francis to go back to the original Creed.

wtf, are we twins?

I'm on the same boat kind of. I've really been trying to be attracted to Orthodoxy (my girlfriend is Orthodox so I would like to have the same religion because kids etc etc) but I cannot find their arguments as convincing as the whole Aristotelian-Thomistic tradition of proving existence of God through reason, Natural Law, what exactly is mortal sin and how to get saved, etc. Would like to be proven wrong though.

There were multiple schools of thought in the pre-schism Church, on multiple subjects.
For instance: the emphasis on Jesus having two natures was the Constantinopolitan/Antiochian school of Christology. It first degenerated into Nestorianism, but afterward became the main and universal doctrine of the Church.
The emphasis on Jesus's two natures being united was the Alexandrian school of thought. It first degenerated into monophysitism (Eutychianism), but afterward tended toward miaphysitism, which became the main doctrine of the Oriental Orthodox communion, while a Chalcedonian perspective on them would be anything from "they're straight up Eutychians" to "they're just like us but they're stubborn in mistakenly anathematizing dyophysitism".

Another example: Biblical exegesis. The Alexandria school is to have an allegorical, mystic interpretation. The Antiochian school is to have a strict, literalist interpretation.

There were different schools of thought regarding the Papacy too. I observe three schools of thought:
- The Roman school. The Pope is the successor of Peter, in such a way that he inherits the same position, prerogatives, and powers - supreme doctrinal and pastoral authority. He is the Vicar of Christ, the sole true guardian of orthodoxy, and he indeed is, mystically, Peter. St Jerome's views express it best: the sentence "no salvation outside the Church" only really applies to the Church of Rome, and any other Church only derives its orthodoxy from Rome. Note that this exalted view of the Pope was bolstered by how the Church of Rome was the only significant Church of apostolic origins in the West.
- The African school. The Pope is the -main- successor of Peter. Peter's powers immediately extended to the other apostles, and through them to all bishops equally. The Church of Rome is special in that, among the Churches, it functions like Peter did (as the proof of unity and the source of sacramentality) but every bishop has strictly the same powers.
- The Byzantine school. The Pope is the successor of Peter, and indeed plays the role of Peter among the communion of bishops today. This means that if the bishops possess power, it's thanks to him, and he must play the role of Peter, having the highest doctrinal and pastoral authority in the Church. However, this never extended to an idea of true infallibility, but rather a strong protective grace inherited from being founded by Peter and Paul. With the establishment of the Pentarchy, this view became even stronger - the Church was seen as a "confederate" of 5 ruling Churches, with the "elder sister" being Rome, which holds a special prerogative and holds the keys of heaven for everyone else. Indeed, the view of Peter as choir leader of the apostles became current, and Rome was the choir leader of the Churches.

The Roman view, obviously, evolved into the current Roman Catholic view. The African and Byzantine views are both found, to varying degrees, in the Orthodox communion today.

What is Rome's error then? It is to have taken Western theology to be necessarily the normative and universal theology, without respect for the other Churches. The problem of the filioque, of papal supremacy, of Purgatory, etc. become not that they are heretical new innovations (they are not) but that they shouldn't be considered dogma, without further discussion, simply because they are cherished of Western Christendom. What was a choir led by Rome, became a solo.
Incidentally, I believe that the Byzantine theological tradition reflects best the biblical and apostolic truth. So, of course, I would say Rome has badly hurt itself by shunning it as it did (and later theologians misinterpreting Greek patristics to support their strictly Latin theology didn't help).


Who the hell told you that?
For what it's worth, Pope Leo III did not reject the filioque's theology, but rejected the idea that he had superior authority to an ecumenical council.

Christ has given to us a very clear instruction how to recognise the true Church:

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a bad tree bringeth forth bad fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit, neither can a bad tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

So just compare the recent saints that the Catholic Church is producing with the recent saints that the Orthodox Church is producing and it all becomes very obvious whose saints are saints because of the grace of God and whose sants are saints only because they (possibly) have been good people.

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As a post-scriptum note, I'll also say that Latin theology has strongly converged toward understanding everything in a *Christological* perspective, while Byzantine theology has strongly converged toward understanding everything in a *Pneumatological* perspective. The quickest and most obvious instance of this is that Roman Catholics believe the transformation of the gifts happens at the words of consecration while Orthodox believe the transformation of the gifts happens at the epiklesis.
But this reflected on ecclesiology too. With focus on Jesus's ministry, it was inevitable that they would focus on the Bishop of Rome as the successor of Peter, himself installed by Christ as the head of the Church and continuing His ministry of doctrinal and pastoral guidance for the Church.
And for the Orthodox, focusing on passages like John 20:22-23 and Acts 2 would logically lead to understanding the ministry of the episcopacy as one in which no bishop is supreme but every bishop needs the others, united by the glue of the Holy Spirit, which gives gifts to all the disciples at once.

I agree with Boris Bobrinskoy that the Orthodox focus on the Spirit expresses the life of the Church and our manner of salvation better.

You know, even my 10 year old brother has better historical knowledge than you.
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… You know that the Eastern churches repeatedly asked Rome for an ecumenical council to settle the issues, right? During two centuries? And Rome kept saying "no, the Pope said it so that settles it"? Ultimately Florence happened, although that was a disaster (mainly because at this point the two sides were far too much estranged, the Orthodox became divided upon hearing the arguments for the filioque, and the Ecumenical Patriarch died during the council).

And how many successful ecumenical councils have the Orthodox Church had since they schismed?

Can't have one without Rome. But you're moving the goalposts here. Please don't, I don't plan to entertain you.

This.

rome isnt orthodox wouldn't constantinople take its place? I don't see why rome is needed when its no longer orthodox from the eo point of view

As long as he was alive, he never allowed the use of filioque. The plates are still somewere in Saint's Peter cathedral. So as far as dogma goes, the Catholic church actually disobeyed the pope in this matter.

Constantinople took its place as the primate of the Church, but an ecumenical council is a council that:
- is approved by the 5 historical sees of the Church, that is, Rome, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem (but a church does not need to be present at the council itself (like Rome at Constantinople I), or to have agreed to the council at first (like Alexandria at Chalcedon))
- has the final approval of the Bishop of Rome
- defines dogma

Although note that this was the Byzantine view around the 9th century. The Roman view has consistently and always been that a council is ecumenical if the Pope says so. And other Byzantine views on ecumenical councils have existed, like "a council is ecumenical if it's called by the emperor" (a view strongly denounced by Maximus the Confessor) or "a council is ecumenical if it defines true dogma" (Maximus the Confessor's own view, although that made the Council of the Lateran ecumenical in his eyes), or "a council is ecumenical if whoever of the Pentarchy that remains attends and agrees to it" (a couple of general councils were called "ecumenical" after the schism). There is also the Frankish view that a council is ecumenical if bishops from every church attend (and this is why they rejected Nicea II, since they were not invited).

However, the view I explained above appears to me to be the one that actually covers the ecumenicity of all 7 councils, as well as to take into account both Byzantine and Roman sensibilities. Fr Francis Dvornik notably thought that this should also be the Roman Catholic view.

This thread bore the response that I thought it would so far, I appreciate those who wrote longer responses.

But this does raise the question for me: Don't I have to accept some degree of pluralism between the Eastern and Western churches if I were to begum ordodox? Would I be remiss to suggest that being in communion with Rome would constitute a fuller expression of the Christian faith, *regardless* of my personal inclination that the Orthodox have preserved the faith better (whatever that means)?

I realize this seems like a thinly veiled Papist thread, which is not my intention. I just don't understand how I can evangelize effectively as an Orthodox; the Roman Catholic question would seem to be the elephant in the room. I'm willing to admit I'm not an expert on Trinitarian doctrinal minutia or the philosophical traditions of the Latins that the Orthodox claim has in some way corrupted the faith, but it seems like I'd *need* to be an expert in these things if I wanted to explain to someone (or myself) why I am where I am.

Thanks for listening guys.

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Because the teachings of the EO never strayed to far from the teachings of the True Faith even after 1000 years. Compare to the protestants who after a few hundred years had thrown out all the teachings and perverted the faith. As much as the Orthodox claim the differences are huge they really aren't. No really go look up the things they get mad about and then what EO believes and it's like really guys.

We don't require the Eastern Catholics to say it because we realized how dumb it was to let you guys leave over it.
Only made the fact she went up to heaven body and soul dogmatic which you believe sort of in a weird Orthodox way.
Caused just as many problems in the EO as it did in the RCC and the Pope consulted all of Bishops before declaring it dogmatic which at the time when everyone was on bad terms was the best he could do.


In a way it can be argued the falling away was an organic event and was the will of the Holy Spirit just like the reestablishment of Communion will be the will of the Holy Spirit.

That’s a nice observation, i’ve also noticed that in the Catholic Church there is hardly any reference to the Holy Ghost compared with Christ. It’s like he is an afterthought.

Aren't you wrong here? Iirc us orthodox can only have an ecumenical council when an *emperor* calls one in.

This view was strongly condemned by St Maximus the Confessor, I think the 7th ecumenical council rejects it implicitly, and this being wrong was one of the specific reasons used by the Byzantine bishops to justify why the 9th century Iconoclast councils weren't going to be valid either way regardless of the hierarchy pushing them.

I'll note that the first and second iconoclast crisises had to naturally led to the rejection of this theory because Iconoclasm was specifically pushed by the political hierarchies and not by the actual clergy of the Church.

The three main views within the first millenium of the Chruch were: a council is ecumenical if the emperor calls it, a council is ecumenical if the Pope affirms it, a council is ecumenical if the Pentarchy affirms it, and the first view went down the drain when the Church better defined its relationship to the state.

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Upon due consideration of the problem and careful examination of all possible options I've decided that a council is ecumenical when Christ wants it to be ecumenical.

No. Of course, we can install an Orthodox pope in Rome.

Absolutely heretical

Who is "brane boi"

...

Thomas Aquinas

How come catholics say mary is the mother of God?

Was Jesus God when He was conceived?

Mary is the mother of Jesus Christ. And Jesus Christ is the incarnated Word of God. And the Word of God is God. Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.
I am not a Roman Catholic.