I’ll ask this bluntly: How can Jews be faulted for their rejection of Christ’s messiah claim given that the single...

Every answer itt so far is wrong.

Isaiah 2 is about the eschaton, not the first coming. It is not a Messianic prophecy as in a signal to identify the Messiah at his first coming (like the virgin birth). The OT student already knows that the coming of the Messiah happens before the end times.
Verse 2 "IN THE LAST DAYS"

Bad apologetics
Your argument requires a rejection of Isaiah 2 as prophecy to happen on Earth

You say it doesn’t have to be fulfilled immediately, then you say it’s already fulfilled by the nations in Heaven. Which is it?

In what sense did Christ fulfill it? Are people still learning war?

“And he shall judge between the nations and reprove many peoples, and they shall beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift the sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.”
The Judeo-Christian world has pretty much been in a perpetual state of war since Christ.

It’s also uncharitable to conflate the desire for world peace with materialism. Even if a Jew wants a NWO in which he controls all the wealth, ceteris paribus, if his religion also desires today’s warfare to end, that still counts as at least one good thing.

This is interesting, a more mystical answer. The Jewish soul is eternally at war, that sort of thing?

Does the messianic era NOT coincide with the End of Days and the World to Come? What else would the messianic era entail?

What do you mean when you say "Messianic era"?
We are living AD. Christ has already come the first time.
There will be a millennial reign yet to come.

Does that answer the question?

I suppose I’m asking what “messianic era” means if not the fulfillment of important end times prophecies.

You're the one who introduced the term to our conversation, you tell me

chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/100899/jewish/The-Messianic-Era.htm

Remove that from your vocabulary, Chaim. We aren't Jews and Jews aren't Christians. There is no Judeo-Christian world, there is only the Christian world that Israel is trying to graft itself onto like the deceptive kikes they are.

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Romans 11:17-24

Whatever, I shouldn’t have included any modifier or qualifier whatsoever. Try this:

As I said before, Scripture itself only states something the Messiah will do, it does not tell you when. It could be interpreted in both senses that either the Nation of Man will be incorporated into Heaven on the Judgement Day, or that the Nations of Men are already arriving in Heaven, since Christ via the Gospels eliminated the distinction between "Jew and Gentile", in the old racial sense.

You must admit that the claim is that Christ fulfilled some of the prophecies, and that some of His other promises WILL be in fulfillment of the rest of the prophecies. Torah itself makes no distinction on the particulars.

Christ never promised the elimination of war in our Age, not until the end of days; the quote you are proof-texting in context, refers to the Spiritual Kingdom.

Moses and Abraham are all Christians. They all were breached the fullness of the Gospel and accepted it and are in Heaven! Additionally even on earth they practiced Christianity, although it was Old Covenant. They dreamed and awaited of the day of Jesus Christ, the true Messiah. Jews have seen Christ and reject him. This is a new religion. All the OT prophets were waiting for Jesus Christ, and he came to them (after their death).

That's self-refuting user. The Mosaic Jews BEFORE Christ, and prior to the Jewish rejection of the Messiah were not therefore yet guilty of the rejection of Christ; but were subject to the Law.

ITT:

John 5:46
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

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Yes, precisely. Listen to E. Michael Jones, he lays it out perfectly. Ever since the Jews rejected Logos they have been at war with reality.

Do you have a short clip of EMJ that succinctly gives his theory? I've watched many of his videos now and I can write a blurb about it, but was wondering if there is a cut down video which clearly explains this. Something that would be useful to show around people who have already started to see the JQ? If not, maybe I should make one! I'll try and make a text infographic too.

I like it because I think it can really convert a lot of pol-lite (not hardcore Larpaganers ha) to our side, because I think it gives the clearest answer to why we are in this clown world. The current theories don't really make sense - that Jews just don't want to "stick out", or some weird occult reason and so on.

Was wondering if you knew of a video or not. I'll try and look for some more. He basically repeats his thesis in every video, stretched out over an hour, but when many people see a 1hr video they sort of nope on it :(

I wanted to add, that if you subscribe to this theory, well it gives a very strong case for Christianity to be the truth, and why White Europeans have mainly been persecuted by Jews, not for their ethnicity but because of their association with Christianity. I think it could make a lot of people reclaim their Christianity! That's my hope anyways. EMJ has been seeing a real big uptick lately. Lots of people have been mailing in to Owen Benjamin too saying they're coming back to Christ. A lapsed Catholic messaged Owen saying that after his talks with EMJ (if I'm not mistaken) he came back to the church. Owen was also pretty critical of the Catholic Church (being raised Catholic) and EMJ basically has made him stop criticizing the church and he seems to favor it. I think the JQ might really be a great re-evangelizer in the end! At least I'm hopeful :)

Observation: Only prophecies that can’t be directly verified (e.g. Bethlehem) are said to have been fulfilled by Jesus. No prophecy that can be verified (e.g. the one in this thread) was fulfilled by Jesus.

I never said it didn't happen on earth. I said it was unseen. As Jesus said, the "kingdom of God is within you". The work of the kingdom starts in the here and now through Christ, in men's hearts. And that is no small thing, even on earth. He has completely turned the world upside down, but not in the way they expected. Every one has to reckon with the name of Christ right here on earth. That can't be said about anyone else in history. But despite all of this tension happening on earth, it's not a visible or direct kingdom.

Substantiate with examples. We can find Jesus fulfilling prophecies not only in Isiah, but also in the Psalms.

Why would a visible or direct kingdom be an unreasonable thing to expect? Why does even the mention of such a thing get automatically dismissed as an “earthly expectation” or a “desire of the flesh.” I swear, it’s almost as if Christianity never really rid itself of its Gnosticism or something.

It's not, but the Torah only said what the Messiah will do to bring about the Kingdom. The Kingdom Christ promised is far beyond whatever you Jews believe your messiah will bring.

It's not Gnosticism, we suffer from lust in our animal bodies. What do you think the messiah's kingdom is gonna be like? Blackjack and prostitutes?

Lol no, but certainly an end to suffering, in other words, no more cross-carrying required. It’s the goals any maximalist would hope for. Btw I still believe Christ is the messiah, in rabbinic Judaism there is a tradition of Messiah Ben Josef and Messiah Ben David and I have a hunch that plays into God’s plan (I am not a Jew but you could definitely call me a Jewish sympathizer).

OK, in what way? Christ promised this Kingdom in explicit terms, this Kingdom is spiritual, and superior to this Kingdom. There will be an end of time, and then God will institute the endless Kingdom.

If we take your word for it, this kingdom is still material and still of -this- world, only everything's all nice and butterflies…with Jews in control.

Then you should lean on the Church He left.

and superior to this earthly, worldly Kingdom*

Not having to cross-carry. The ending of suffering is inherently spiritual, there can’t be a separation between the two. Also, Jewish end times look like the entire world devoting 100% of their time to the appreciation and study of God rather than just the Sabbath, not unlike the Beatific Vision.
Now YOU are betraying your political/earthly/materialistic bias, since you are worried about this, as if scarcity will be an issue. But also, no, God/Christ will be in control, and Jews will be forced to repent and take their place among the nations. Genesis 49:10
Cool, then we will know FOR SURE that Christ is the messiah, rather than taking it as an article of faith.

It's not Gnostic. People with Christ's kingdom in their hearts bear fruit (tangible things that change the world). As Jesus urged his followers "You are the light of the world/you are the salt of the earth". And that's exactly what the Church has been doing for 2000 years. Everywhere the church has spread has ended a reign of demons, human sacrifice, brought in fairer laws, etc.. Unlike Gnostics, who only cared about their secret order and hidden knowledge, the Church has always had a larger impact on the world. It's just not through war either. On one end, we're not Gnostic, on the other, we're not Muhammad. It's slow and precise work, but not intended to be forceful.

And secondly, the Church is made up of men of all walks of life and races (per Isaiah's vision).

On a sidenote, this is also why I'm weary of many Protestants. They're a-historical and don't see the Church as any sort of extension of Christ's kingdom. They relish in badmouthing church history or creating conspiracies and assume bad faith about anything church related. They're just as bad as Jews - which is why they're working together now, trying to usher in their own bizarre messianic age. One done with force and has already killed or displaced millions. If that's you want, I'll just give you a warning: It's not going to end well.

Not what I want, although there is no reason to believe that Jewish efforts to, say, rebuild the Third Temple, are slowing down the hastening of the end times, is there? Eventually history reaches its climax. God forbid that sin be encouraged, but at the same time, the signs of the times are the signs of the times.

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Obviously swords are required to defend any kingdom. How much more so the Kingdom of God, which is of infinite value? But even the Catholic Church, supposedly the kingdom on earth, has been subjected to war and tragedy. (Hence why I specified Judeo-Christian in the first place — if the strife was limited to the Muslim world or Asian communists it wouldn’t even register on my radar) There have even been intra-Christian conflicts. The slaughter of Christians is surely not what Christ meant here, and if you think that you are an idiot.

Never heard of this, please define what you mean by this.

Why? God is almighty, you have to explain why the messiah's kingdom is spiritual without bringing in Christ (from a Jewish standpoint).

the Beatific vision is mankind glorified, united with God - it's literally unfathomable, and while praying is a large part of it, it's hard to reduce it to "praying and studying all day".

You must take it as an article of faith to begin with, if you have no faith in Christ, the Kingdom is not open to you.

You mean enslavement of my people? ok
You mean shit like communism? ok
There's no such thing. Get out kike.
If you kikes read Isaiah it would be obvious he's the messiah. The virgin birth and all that. The issue is that you rejected him in your pride and then kvetch about him not fulfilling your earthly desires.
God does not obey man, Man obeys got. Get over it already.

I already said it, basically that Christ said that following him in the present age would entail suffering, each having to carry their own individual cross. Obviously this isn’t ideal, and in Heaven / the World to Come we should hope not to expect the sin that makes the cross-carrying of thenpresent age necessary.
Touché. Thinking about it more, two points really stand out to me:
1. God must always be accepted on faith, so the messiah coming before the End of Days attests to this.
2. FPBP , also what this user said — that while there may be nothing in scripture pointing to a second coming of the anointed one (other than the Messiah Ben Josef / David dichotomy) there’s nothing in scripture either that demands it to happen all at once either.

I'm the first user you're quoting there.

It's interesting you mention Messiah ben Joseph. I didn't think to get into that, but it's precisely the state Jews have to deal with right now. We are in the age of Joseph. And just as Joseph reached the height of power in Egypt and saved them from famine, this is where Jesus is working now in the hearts of men across the world. Until he decides to reveal himself to his brothers, they will not recognize him and only see him as some weird "Gentile king" as Joseph's own brothers couldn't recognize him. And when he does finally do it, he'll put them through an ordeal, as Joseph did to Judah and his brothers. But until that time, Christ's kingdom is one of relieving the spiritual famine in the rest of humanity. Not Jews.

It's possibly the one thing Jews have missed in their whole tradition though. I don't know when it started, but their concept of the Messiah became completely centered on David/Judah. When the true Messiah represents both Joseph and Judah. And Joseph is the son who suffered and became a stranger.

And not everything in Isaiah was images of the Davidic king. He also talked about the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53.

Do you think this shocking oversight is forgivable in the eyes of Christ?

Nothing from a thousand years ago can be "directly verified"

Indeed.

I know what you mean haha

I think that even the Nazis would agree with this, but because of their faithlessness they have been forced to use Darwinism to explain the JQ. You can't use Darwinism exclusively to explain the JQ, you would only be able to scratch the surface. To get to the root, you need to look at history.

The Jews fear the collectivization of White people. Europeans used to identify themselves with religious affiliation, NOT by ethnic identity up until Darwinism. When Darwinism took over, the Christian justification for accepting the JQ was thrown out of the window. There was no justification any more other than Darwinism and then you would be called a racial determinist.

I believe that we need to use both darwinism and Christianity to explain the JQ, here is were I think E Michael Jones is wrong. He uses purely Christianity to describe the phenomenon of the JQ, were I would use both.

There are two questions to the JQ that need to be answered: 1. Why do the Jews hate Whites? 2. How, despite their small numbers, do they manage to persistently undermine the West?

The answer to the first question is the rejection of Logos. Whites may not see the West as Christian anymore, but the Jews do! They haven't gotten over what happened 2000 years ago.

The answer to the second question is Intelligence and extreme tribalism, the Jews have both. Whites, as of today, only have one left.

You know YHWH is fundamentally a tribal God of war right? There is a reason He’s called called “Lord of Armies” over 280 times in the Bible and “Lord of Peace” just once.

I doubt it, at least with Rabbis (not everyone), who are responsible for shutting the eyes of their people. They literally stopped readings of Isaiah 53 on purpose and it's now called the "forbidden chapter". So I think the whole silence about Messiah ben Joseph was probably intentional too, since it's related.

YHVH is bigger than some mere tribe. The Name is a shortened version of the statement to Moses "I AM THAT I AM" or "I AM WHAT I WILL BE". It's a statement of eternity and ultimate creation. Revelation reiterates it in Jesus: "He who was, is, and is to come."

This is no mere tribal consideration. It's cosmic.

Nope. He states this quite a few times Himself.

I will ask this bluntly:
Why does the synagogue of satan always spam Zig Forums with their bullshit?
Christ himself condemns Pharisees quite clearly. Christ is God. Therefore here is your answer on ho can someone who rejects God be faulted for rejecting God.

It's like: Hey/…..how can I be faulted for breaking this window when I literally broke it? OY VEY.

“Some mere tribe” is His people. Majestically our God is both tribal and cosmic, local and global.

Did I object to this tribalism? I’m only calling out the hypocrisy. Why are Jews the only ones allowed to be tribal?

They’re not, it’s just that most Christians are too stupid to be tribal without resorting to Nazism. Maybe take a page out of the Mormon or Korean playbook. Then again, I don’t see why Christians have any use for such low schemes, considering
With that said, may YHWH the destroyer bring fire upon Jerusalem and this entire earth speedily in our days.

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There is 2 messiahs in Isaiah: Emanuel and the son of david

Do you identify Immanuel as the Son of Josef and agree with the view presented here ?

The son of david is the Mahdi he is the 2 messiah. Messiah is not one because the oil of god is not one only. Why there is only one messiah if messiah means annointed ?

As it's written in ISAIAH 11

6 The wolf (lion maybe) will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling[a] together;
and a little child will lead them.
7
The cow will feed with the bear,
their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox.
8
The infant will play near the cobra’s den,
and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest.
9
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,
for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord
as the waters cover the sea.

But let's embrace skepticism. I think that the messiah can be a unity of 2 people like Jesus it our GOD. A man united it Jesus making the acts of Jesus continue… HAHA

harun-yahya.net/en/Eser-Tipi/218213/WOMEN-WILL-TRAVEL-SAFELY-IN-COMFORTABLE-CLOTHES-AT-THE-TIME-OF-HAZRAT-MAHDI-PBUH

Every religion outside of the Judeo-Christian tradition is false, self-sage.

Every book ?

I’ve studied Islamic eschatology and sometimes frequent /islam/, it doesn’t even make sense.

In the sense that in the Kingdom of God that is opened with the salvation that Christ brings, the judgement and purification brings perfect peace. It is ridiculous to think that the MEssiah will just be some general who will end a couple wordly disputes, when the very prophecies also mention how he will not be recognzed, and how he will suffer and be mocked,

There is 3 books 1 one god. 3 religions, 3 different gods and in none of them is our god, except in the books.

..,OK, so then what exactly are you arguing here? You don't believe in Hell? Or is this a roundabout way of agreeing with Catholic doctrine?

Hell exists and is real. When I say “carrying one’s cross” I mean as Jesus said it, as the way to follow him. I suppose those condemned to Hell will be “carrying their crosses” as well, but for entirely different reasons.

They had first hand experience.
His blood is on their hands.

It’s very true, also taking into account that Jesus would have been able to solve every problem they had if only they had faith in him. The complaint that “there is no world peace and therefore Isaiah 2:4 hasn’t yet been fulfilled and the messiah still hasn’t come yet” begins more and more to look like a cope.

Bear in mind though that even if the blood is on their hands, we are all second degree murderers when it comes to Christ, by cooperating, through sin, with the evil one.

I changed rev 2,9, 3,9 to rev 2:9, 3:9 since it made it seem like it was refrencing all of rev 2, rev 9, rev 3, rev 9.

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Read the rest of Isaiah then read the New Testament and tell me that prophecy hasn't been fulfilled.
Literally all the good Jews were able to tell that Jesus was their master.

I heard a Rabbi speak a month ago outside of Boston in a house church. He was a Messianic Jew. They believe that Jesus is the prophet and they are working to spread the word to other people of Jewish faith.

So what's the difference between a Messianic Jew & a Christian?

Specifically, most of them are Evangelical and often of the Charismatic variety.. with a little bit of liturgical customs and holidays from Jewish heritage.

They are still practice Judaism, but believe that Jesus is the Lord and Savior. While other Jews are still waiting.

Don't forget 1 Thessalonians 2:15-16, Titus 2:10-11, and 1 Peter 2:9-10.

Also, if possible Galatians could be pointed to chapters 3 and 4, or Galatians 3:16 along with Genesis 22:17 which it quotes. All KJV of course, as modern versions corrupt the Genesis verse and most corrupt Galatians 4:7.

Really OP? You can't see how this prophecy is fulfilled in the body of Christ? How the apostles went out from Zion and Jerusalem bearing the law and the word of the Lord, and have brought men of all nations to "the mountain of Lord", into the houses of the God of Jacob, and how they have been taught of God, American and Russian, English and French, Jew and Gentile, joined in worship of Abraham's God, and have therein forgotten to wage war, but together beat their swords into plowshares?

Nice.

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