Eastern Orthodoxy ALLOWS female deacons(!) This is ridiculous. All the Holy Orders should be for men only - the deaconesses in the early Church were not sacramental deacons. How can you allow this? You know the Ameridox will use this in the argument for female ordination.
In fact, American Orthodoxy is like how mainline Protestantism was ~20 years ago, before they went totally crazy. They oppose the death penalty and some have made the argument that women should be priests, I've even seen someone claim that adelphopoiesis means that homosexual marriage should be allowed.
And, sadly, like pretty much every other denomination (and, religion in general) you have bent on the issue of divorce and contraception.
Just because Boomers haven't subverted your mass, don't think you are safe…
Explain this, Eastern Orthodox
your blathering m8
Stop comparing everything to liberal protestantism.
It's cringy.
Secondly, one of the pics isn't even EO, it's Armenian, so OO.
Thirdly, eastern christendom has had deaconessess since forever, so you might as well bitch about leavened bread.
Seek help
Because we're always been modernists, bro.
*dabs ecumenically*
But for a more serious response…
The Eastern traditions tended to regard deaconesses as being sacramentally ordained, while the Western traditions tended to regard them as being a lay ministry. It's a legitimate and acceptable difference in sacramental theology, and certainly not the only one that existed before the schism. Either way nobody argued that deaconesses had the same role as male deacons liturgically, or that they could be promoted to "priestesses".
Liturgically, the bishop represents Jesus and, being his legate, so does the priest.
This isn't exactly the "in persona Christi" argument but still doesn't permit women to become bishops or priests.
One could wonder out loud how then a woman's role could fit liturgically in relation to Mary rather than Jesus, but this is futile thinking for the simple reason that it would be introducing something new to the way the Liturgy works, which has no reason to be done, even if we figure out it may be totally legitimate theologically.
I mean, this is more or less the same reason for why we still aren't fine with unleavened bread (and, unlike female priesthood, the use of unleavened bread for the Eucharist is a pre-schism practice, although not an ancient one).
First, why are you putting a social/moral/legal issue (the death penality) next to the infinitely more important issues of liturgy and the sacraments?
Second, believe it or not, the death penality was not consistently and always supported by every Orthodox saint and nation in history. There is a legitimate argument in tradition both for and against it.
Third, the only Orthodox people I've seen claim that females can be ordained as priests are liberal "theologians" who never go to church and only post their articles on Public Orthodoxy, and the only people I've seen claim that adelphopoiesis allows homosexual unions are Anglicans. I've never seen an Orthodox say that. I'm very sorry if you have, but that's some fringe shit right there.
We didn't "bend on divorce" just now, you know. Your response is late.
Abortifacient contraception is still treated the same as abortion and murder, while -some- pastors consider that non-abortifacients may be permitted temporarily by economy. This is a problem that I think hasn't been sufficiently investigated theologically, but again, I'm bothered that you're mixing social and secular issus (like the death penality) with pastoral issues (like contraception) and with sacramental/liturgical issues (ordination, marriage). You do realize that sacramental/liturgical issues are much more important in comparison, right? Bishops can make errors about how to shepherd their flock or how the Church should act in society, but if a bishop makes an error about our very immediate experience of Christ liturgically he becomes a heretic, condemning both himself and those who follow him in his errors.
Now, if you want to argue that we're heretics for our liturgical and sacramental theology, go ahead. But we've been doing these long before we even set foot on America.
well thought out response and also witnessed
What do deaconesses even do?
Make Catholics whine.
The early church counted some women as Apostles too. Mary Magdalene is historically called the "Apostle to the Apostles", since she announced the risen Jesus to them first. Paul mentions a Junia among the Apostles (some Latin manuscripts say Julia however). Any major missionary who helped convert a land was called an Apostle. Like St. Patrick for Ireland - but there was a St Nina (Nino) in Georgia and the Caucasus as well.
What tradition and scripture forbids is females in the priesthood specifically. For they are models of our High Priest, who is Christ.. and he is a man.
Deaconesses were especially allowed in the early church because it was considered unseemly and taboo for males to touch females. Even baptism could risk impropriety in their eyes. I'm not sure of the details beyond that though. It could be that the females had to dress in a way that might be evocative in the water up close. Like wearing white perhaps? Some traditions nowadays have people wear black. While Catholics gave up on immersion long ago, so I doubt they even ran into the problem.
In the Divine Liturgy they don't play much of a role.
Because they are ordained, and above the minor orders, they technically can fulfill the role of a lector, or a cantor, or an acolyte, or a door-keeper…
Unlike bishops and priests who consecrate the Eucharist, and male deacons who distribute it, deaconesses don't actually deal with the Holy Gifts in the Liturgy. However, they have the job to administer the sacraments that don't require a bishop or priest and that require the clergy administering the sacrament to touch the body of the person receiving it. In societies where it is not acceptable for men to touch women like that, it is up to deaconesses to administer Baptism, Chrismation and Anointing of the Sick to female parishioners. (remember that unlike in Western tradition where Chrismation is conferred directly by the bishop's hands, in Eastern tradition the Holy Chrism is blessed by the primates of the various Orthodox churches)
So, basically, deaconesses are indeed ordained, but their job is to take care of practical things during the Liturgy (that do not involve the Eucharist or the liturgical prayers at the altar, unlike male deacons) and giving pastoral and sacramental assistance to women.
Also, per the 6th ecumenical council, deaconesses must be at least 40 to be ordained, and they must remain celibate.
stay mad
Baptism used to be done naked, so women deacons were needed to baptize female converts
What the…
stopped watching right there
Orthos are closer to female ordination than Catholics. Fact.
Impersonating others and thus lying is sin.
said no Christian ever
Impersonating who? I'm Orthodox.
Palamas is a heretic? funny cause he is venerated as a saint in the Catholic church
Stupid picture considering Palamas is a saint according to Catholics as pointed out.
Wow, I never realised the eastern heterodox were this pozzed. They are basically Anglicans and a feminist church. Sacrament ally ordained women, what is this lunacy. Don't you know the sacrament of orders can only be applied to men?
Into the fiery lake they go
This is almost as retarded as calling us modernist for following the canons of St Basil on divorce
If we are "pozzed", then the Church of Antiquity was, too.
The uniates, as well.
In the words of a local rap song, "watch how you throw words around, lest you end up cursing yourself"
This is, actually, true. We have your traditions to thank for the Western Church having altar girls now…
The c*tholic church was always a vehicle for western supremacy, as your post proves. This is why the catholic church promotes globalism, which is basically western poz supremacy all over again.
lol is anti-Ortho sperg user back? We've missed you just kidding please leave
Only since the modernist invasion.
So called "Western" values today are actually Freemasonic values that come from the false Enlightenment. Catholicism is the bulwark of Europe.
Holy Mother Church is in a bad way right now, but there is no Europe, no West, without the Catholic tradition. The Eastern Orthodox failed to defend Europe from Huns, Arabs, Turks, and whoever else, Catholic Christians did. The great art, architecture, and music of the West is the product of Catholicism. If you say that that was all in the past and that the Church is effectively dead, I'd say that's a fair criticism. However, you want me to abandon something that sustained Western man for ages and go LARP as a religion that is essentially dead in every Eastern Orthodox country, when Catholicism only recently lost its vitality. All in favor of something that has been insular for so long that they actively shun converts.
If there is any hope for the West at all, it's Jesus Christ and His Church, not OrthoLARPing (really, that is simply escapism).
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"Orthodox"
traditionally, the office of deaconess was for a woman to aid the priest in certain religious rites concerning other women. the idea was/is a priest should not touch a woman that is not his wife, so the deaconess was to act as his hands when dealing with women. However, I know of no modern deaconess in the eastern orthodox chruch, I have no idea who those women with Patriarch Theodore are, but they are not deaconesses.
what is this meme
also, are you mentally ill? i'm not trying to be mean, but you sound exactly like my schizophrenic father.
From what I understand, some Americans treat religion like fashion. Once it is unfashionable to religion 'x' they turn to 'y'. Once 'y' is unfashionable they turn to 'z'. Continue ad nauseam until one of two things happen:
1) they die
2) they take the breadpill and come home to Rome
t. Burger that was exactly like this
This is fake news. The Greek church or OCA =/= all of Orthodoxy. That's not how logic works.
None of these things are allowed in the Serbian or Russian church, so you've strawmanned most of Orthodoxy right there already.
is obviously a joke post, dummy.
so basically, its just a cope
got it.
Orthoprots: Monarchy is the only divinely ordained form of government, Holy Russia will have another Czar!
Orthoprots: Jesus Christ founded this weird Westphalian balance of power democracy of bishops who can't agree on anything and constantly excommunicate each other.
lmao this is Mick right? Don't you have anything better to do?