Something dead wrong is going on with the Russian church

I'm not sure. I could only find a small breadcrumb trail that pointed to difficulties regarding pan-orthodox unity as an issue. There was a council back in 2014 that sought to solve that issue, as well as of ecumenism. It was approved by half of the Orthodox Churches, with only the slavic sphere not signing it yet. Were Russia to leave, the first full steps could be undertaken. Can't find anything about Athonite monks opposing it, nor could I imagine a reason they would. If Moscow split, those monks more than likely will remain and just join ROCOR anyhow.

Ok I'm going to be non judgemental here…
Is the Imperial Mansion where the patriarch resides in a national, historic monument of significance and is it maybe really up for restoration?

The topic has become more an excuse to discuss issues regarding the Moscow Patriarchate. From the article itself:
In short, it's a "gift" from the Russian government to the Church, and it is being renovated on the governments dime, not the churches, specifically for Kirill. This is yet another example of the bribery and excess of the Moscow Patriarchate. Unsurprising, considering they are trying to curry as much power as possible and establish a National Church very tied to Russian Patriotism. It's not that it's being renovated, it's not that it's a luxurious home for a major Patriarch, it's that it's bought and paid for by the government that should be concerning.

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The Catholic Pope lives in his own fricking Palace-City and you have the gall to say you are "praying" for the Russian Orthodox over a mere 43 million dollars?

...

No, im not praying over the 43 million. I'm praying that another 1917 doesn't occur. Learn 2 english, amigo.

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The modern Russian government is most certainly not a government I would want involved in Church politics. We can see what happened when their predecessor meddled in the Catholic Church.

It doesn't help that the Communist party is still pretty active within the Russian government.

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Why would a Patriarch live in the imperial mansion in the first place? Can't he see that it is scandalous for the Russian people where a big part of the population live in poverty? All other Patriarchs live in humble cells because they're actually monks, only the Russian one gets to live in a mansion.

You are not helping with the no u attitute. The Orthodox church was always in the side of the people, it was one with them and suffer together with them when the people suffer. The last time when the church took the side of the rulers was in Imperial Russia and you know how that end.

The communist party are in good terms with the Russian church now unironically.

Not this time Romists.

pretty sure they aren't in government

Because it's dying.
Their electorate is nostalgic pensioners that miss the glory days of the USSR.
Now, russian retirees are also religious, so you have this weird mix of nationalistic commies that try to act pro-orthodox.

Hello my ex-evangelical, born again Orthodox friend, i'm not a Catholic. Things are more serious than you may think and i don't see how you're so confident that something similar will not happen again. Reread the first article, history repeats herself.

Aren't they the second largest party in Russia after Putin? Besides, it's the Russian church that acknowledge them, the Moscow Patriarch recently awarded the communist party. There's an identity crissis going on in Russian religion and politics. Also, Stalin's approval rates among Russians (over 70%) are not very promising for the future of the church over there.
themoscowtimes.com/2019/04/16/stalins-approval-rating-among-russians-hits-record-high-poll-a65245

Technically, but given the Duma looks like this, it's irrelevant.
Their place is still mostly from nostalgics.

Don't know about that.

Oh, politically, Russia is veeeery messed up.

Stalin is a complex figure in Russia, and some of it is due to:
a)him leading the country during the Axis invasion;
b)contrarianism;

But yeah, pretty messed up.

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Pray for mother Russia's conversion, lads.

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This crap killed millions of Russians, persecuted their faith. You think communists being this high is not relevant?
And we're again to:
Why is it that doubting the concept of "patriotic war" gets you sent in jail in Russia while you can be openly communist and praising Stalin and get away with it?
We may talk a great deal about muh complexity and sheit but the truth remains that it shows who makes the laws there.
Even if I would concede the defense of the "russian nation" in wwii which I take a huge issue with, it was mostly act because communists were not nationalistic, but internationalists and they were strongly against Christianity..you know the only thing to save souls of people.
At this point I will not create D n C posts I will just pray for your country and your church as well as for my Catholic church. We're truly in the moved days and larping about who's better off for this second, catholic, or orthodox does not help anyone.

From a practical point of view. Set aside stories of "atrocities" that got reported by Stalin and his comrades. Even if they're true their numbers are far less than the number from gulags and red terror.
Well denying them/let alone praising the invasion is deemed criminal now.
this is completely fine.
I will just leave you with this. Make your own opinion about it. Perhaps I am just deluded and do not see the things as clearly as few communist russians who are nostalgic about the power past of USSR when all eastern europe was under godless communism. Really great days to be sure because you know…it is the type of contrarianism our system allows to grow so why not.

It all just makes me sick

Personally i don't care about the Russian politics at all but more about the way the Russian church is handling things over there and how that affects the whole Orthodox churh. By reducing the faith to a mere ideology of the state you alienate the people away from the church and some kind of retributionis for certain. Before the communist revolution things were somewhat similar. Kirill today boasts that he builds 3 churches a day but those churches are empty.

Given their membership is mostly retirees, no.
I'm more concerned with Russia's age old tendency towards authoritarianism, lack of freedom of press, and all that jack.
Trying to lionize and whitewash their past stems from that.
Same thing happening in China.

Yeah.
Putin and his oligarchs.
He lets commies get seats, just as he supports right-wing ultranationalists and gives them positions.
If he suddenly decided they were a threat to him, you can be sure he'd ban and destroy them the next day.

Why in God's name would one praise the invasion?
It was a horrible thing for russians, setting aside soviet smear campaigns.
I see no reason one should praise it, and my country participated in Operation Barbarossa, for crying out loud.
Being a Whiteboo makes sense, and is pretty popular in Russia.

I'm not even russian.

People don't miss all the horrors of the USSR.
What they miss is the economic security, and geopolitcal power.

Similar thing with Americans going over the 50's.
They don't miss McCarthyism, living under the threat of nuclear apocalypse, propping dictatorships in the Third World, or heightened racial tensions.

But they do miss when America was a greater force in the world, and when some highschool dropout farmboy could get hired in a factory, and get 3 kids through college off the paycheck.

And i agree.
But Russia 100+ years ago was in a way worse state, so i'm not afraid of October Revolution 2.0

*one from Russia

Authoritarianism is good when guided by God and Church. And any good father is also a bit of an authoritarian, if he knows what he's doing. Stopping queers, degenerates, and blasphemers from ruining the fabric of society is what all Christian societies did before liberalism.

No, thanks.

History has proved that authoritarianism is never good tho. Also queers and "degenerates" are sick people but they're God's children too and the job of the church is to act as a hospital for the souls, not deciding who's going to hell or not.

How has history proven that? There's tons of good and bad examples. And the bible itself promotes kings. Our own Lord is the King of Kings. Are you going to say that we've suddenly become more evolved with the "liberal" model even though Christ himself is a king? This is the brainwashing Western education would teach, where it paints history as a ladder of progression and evolution. But that's not what Christians were ever called to do.

I'm concerned more with quarantining the sick first. You're not showing any love by inflicting them on everyone else. Especially children who are the most vulnerable. And you don't even have the cure for them anyways. Maybe it exists, but so far, nothing has worked. It's just an ideal at this point.

There is simply no instance of a truly authoritarian government being also truly guided by God and Church.
I don't have an opinion about whether the two are compatible, but you're talking about a glorious past that simply never existed.
Let's not forget that the Byzantine Emperor's authoritarianism and misplaced zeal for religion has led to the death of several saints. Most notably, St Maximus the Confessor.
"Chistian" authoritarianism is high risk and high reward, it would seem. No matter how guided by the Church the state may be, we remain humans and so we will never fulfill the Kingdom of God with our own hands here and now. A "Christian" kingdom will inevitably do something very non-Christian, even while thinking that what it is doing is the will of God.

If you get your information from exclusively liberal sources (e.g. everything taught in Western grade schools, colleges, and 99% of media, whether it be left or right-leaning, over the last few centuries), you might come to that conclusion. I'd encourage you to give this video a listen if you haven't already.

The church is not the goverment. A good governor may be a bit authoritative, but the mission of the church is entirely different. Now "liberal" when it comes to religious issues has become a buzzword, they're many passages in the Bible that can be interpreted as liberal or fascistic, but both labels will be wrong.
Wew. I'm always talking about the Orthodox perspective here. The mission of the church is to heal, the mission of the hierarchs is to carry the mission of the church. Nobody appointed us to be God's judgement on earth, our mission is different too. Baptists or other protestant groups may disagree but i only talk about the Orthodox view of things.

I had to pause it when he draw hell fires over liberals lmao. I get my information from the Bible and the Church's fathers.

Apparently you don't. The Church fathers reshaped the Roman empire in their image and convened Councils jointly with the Emperor.

Irrelevant with what i said, the thread and Christianity in general. The Roman empire is no more and Christianity is not a political system.

As opposed to great fruits of freedumz and utter degeneracy of our age.

American nostalgia is an absolute cringefest as is russians being nostalgic after communism
The question is not why do it. The question is why would you go to jail for that. That is a difference brother. And you do not go to jail for praising communism that was far worse invasion - both carnal and spiritual - upon russian people.

Again we do have probably other priorities. What i dislike is somebody whitewashing history to show pointless nostalgia/in order to build false patriotism(see muh comrade stalin)
No thanks. I think the Truth is more important.

And i agree
I'm not defending it, i'm just explaining why it makes sense for it to happen, historically.

Ok, i touched some nerves with my original comments.
The point isn't that authoritarianism is 100% good or bad, it's that russians are susceptible to a retarded kind of authoritarianism, that results in a lot of problems within State and Church.

I'm mostly talking about authoritarianism regarding the church and church's relation with an authoritarian goverment. Freedumz is from God, no human has the right to take that from us. Degeneracy, or as we Christians call it, sin, always existed and will always exist and no wordly goverment will be ever able to ban it, degeneracy was rampant in authoritative goverments as well.

Either system is flawed as is the church on Earth because it is comprised of humans. A judge based system was used by the Israelites and it failed,
then a Kingdom was tried and it too failed. There are many ways to justify both stances but its fundamentally pointless because the only Kingdom that matters is that of Christ, and from what I can tell it's a Kingdom and a family. This is completely irrelevant to the conversation as it's more about the church structure than of a particular form of governance. Putin and the Russian State has done more than enough to be concerning, much like the Borgias in Rome or even the freemasons and various capitalists have done in America and the West more broadly. Clinging on to the notion that freedom has never been tried is a silly An-Cap delusion in the same exact vein as a Communist delusion. It has been tried and it spiralled into power-plays like EVERY human endeavor does.

I agree, i don't really care about political systems, in some times and places a bit authoritarianism might be more suited than others idk. What i especially don't like about Russia is using the church for entirelly political matters and the church backing the goverment against the people while the goverment builds 43million mansions for the Patriarch. This has happened before in Russia and the results were davastating. The goverment might be authoritative but the church must NEVER concede to that, their mission is entirelly different.

So are we getting the OO's back into the Church or not? Moscow can go their own way for all I care, I just want to be able to have commune with Copts.

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Russia is the only western nation in which Christianity is rising. Everywhere else it’s in decline. Worry about yourself.

This will happen sooner or later. The biggest problem i see for achieving this is inter Ortho disunity which is in a bad state the last years. For example, imagine the screeching by some pharisaistic ultra Orthodox if union is to happen, a small brand new "Old Caledarism" movement is unavoidable.

Is this satire? Russia might be more atheist than even France, except from Islam and Paganism that are indeed on the rise. And i blame 100% the actions of Russian church for this, Russians outside of Russia are usually very pious.

oh shidd it's le worry bear :DDD

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it took not only the disaster of ww1, but also the germans sending in an infiltrator, the cuck-visional government giving said infiltrator weapons, and then the western world turning their back on the anti-infiltrator armies. could Russia be heading in such a direction now, not as long as Putin is the strong man. after him, the deluge, but in like manner, in the wake of a political crisis, the Church, having amassed so much power basically fills the vaccum.

That uh, that's a very interesting approach to diplomacy…

< G-guys, filioque is totally not arianism applied to the Holy Spirit

Russia is declining how? Population wise? Sure, Russia is moribund, but Russia has the natural resources to change all that on a dime. There's a boom on the horizon for both central Russia and inland China just simply because if someone can get organized (and it looks like Xi might do just that with his BRI project) they have the technology to finally exploit the tagia, effectively a land-bound sea of timber, oil, fresh water, and minerals.

The only other group on earth that has access to an equivalent potential are the Canadians, and Canada is too heavily invested in the maritime economy to realize the potential.

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dhspriory.org/thomas/ContraErrGraecorum.htm
erickybarra.org/2018/02/11/does-the-filioque-subordinate-the-holy-spirit-to-creation/

The infiltrator argument is kinda retarded. If it only takes ones random spy to turn to country into the first atheist state in world's history then something you're doing wrong. Let alone that Lenin is still worshiped in Russia together with Stalin and his body is mummified and kept in a literal mausoleum.
The problem is that the Russian church too much politics and no religion, just like in the time before the communist revolution.

Go away, (((Jay))).

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Thats what happens when you subordinate your church to politics instead of having it be sovereign from politics.

this. The reason america had separation of church was because of all the business we had with the "church" of england being political nonsense. They maybe prots, but even a broken clock is right twice a day

They being our countries founders

Have you read the Syllabus of Errors/Saint Pius X/anything the pre-Council Popes said about that? It doesn't exist. There is no just thing as separation of Church and state–furthermore, the notion has been condemned with an anathema.

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I'm new to Catholicism. But as someone who experienced nationalized schools, I can tell you nationalist and government mandate are not what they are cracked up to be

I want government to stay out of church because it corrupts. Its happening with the orthodox in Russia, since they foolishly mixed government with the Holy business of Christ. as a result it is nothing more than political rubbish. I've seen government wreck more things I care to count. I don't want it touching the church either. Otherwise it belongs to whoever controls the political system. The idea of someone like Francis controlling the whole system disturbs me. He would probably have us silenced for our refusal to support his "policies" and maybe ban what few TLM churches there are. My only king is Christ. It is him and no one else

this meme template has yet to fail me.

Fun fact:

Many have called for the Patriarchs of Constantinople to move the seat away from Turkey to Mt Athos. Athos belongs to Constantinople anyway, so they believe that if the Patriarch moves the seat there he'll be able to move more freely, which is actually true. The Patriarchs doesn't want to move the seat for a number of reasons, some having to do with the history of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. But another one, one of the most important reasons, is that the Patriarch doesn't want to relate the seat of the Ecumenical Patriarchate solely with the state of Greece. Since the Patriarchs are Greek themselves, having the seat of the Ecumenical Patriarchate inside the borders of modern Greece, the Greek state will get a strong diplomatic tool, but the Ecumenical Patriarchate will inevitably become connected with the politics of the Greek state. So, Bartholomew prefers to live a humble life as a second class citizen in a semi-dictatorship and is criticized hardly by some people because of it, than to betray the role of the Ecumenical Patriarch.
Being a priest/bishop/patriarch is carrying a Cross, not building imperial mansions and doing vacations around the world with your personal yatch. Russians cannot understand that and so they just want to become the Ecumenical Patriarch by force. Something that's failed in the past and will always fail. Just pray that this time they'll wake up before history repeats herself again.