Hi Zig Forums
I was wondering if you could kind of compare and contrast Lutheranism (particularly LCMS) and Orthodox Christianty? I was raised Lutheran, and there's this youtuber I really like who is Orthodox. It seems like there is a fair bit in common, but also quite a few differences. I'm interested, because Orthodox Christianity seems to be more hip to modern degeneracy and nihilism, and more willing to call it out.
Lutheranism and Orthodox Christianity
Caleb Green
Other urls found in this thread:
lcms.org
orthodoxinfo.com
twitter.com
Xavier Morales
I would caution your interest with Orthodoxy only because it is very easy to forget how very human it is. It's human practice falling short of what should be as all churches do. It's good that you're trying to figure out the fundamentals instead of getting swept in the extensions of it.
I want to say that Martin Luther, much like the Anglican priests, originally reached out to the Eastern Orthodox Church to see if he could reconcile but it fell through. I want to say that it wasn't theological differences but communication difficulties (partly to blame to was the EO apathy). If not originally, than certainly at some point. I would look into that more and maybe you can find something more in depth to work from.
From what I can recall, the main 2 fundamentals that the Lutherans and Orthodox agree on is the invalidity of Papal infallibility and the allowance of Priest marriage. The Orthodox practice personal and not mass confession; unlike the Catholics there isn't a rigorous guideline of penance it's more broad and up to the witness to determine. Lutherans, if I'm right, integrate a general confession of sins into their liturgical rite itself before receiving communion. This is a hard no from the Orthodox. Confession must be personal, direct, and specific. It is between the confessor to Christ with the priest as a witness.
The Orthodox recognize the Eucharist as truly and wholly the Body and Blood of Christ. It's a Divine Mystery, not unlike the Catholic idea of transubstantiation. Lutherans, at least today, say it is a symbol of Christ and not truly Christ. That is a big no from the Orthodox. You must truly confess that the Eucharist is the very divine Body and Blood of Christ. The Eucharist is also always given from the same cup, combined with leavened bread, wine, and hot water. Everyone receives it from the same spoon. It is not received kneeling, nor in hand. Baptism is always done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and is full immersion. You must also have a patron Saint as your intercession, and you are baptized under his or her guidance. You recieve the Eucharist under the saints name (i.e. "O lord bless your servant Luke…"). You are also Chrismated (confirmed) the same day as baptism, but it is common practice to use Chrismation alone as a conversion rite for those who were already baptized appropriately.
The Liturgical Rite is also different. Lutherans use a form of pre-Tridentine Mass. If I'm right High Churches use Latin and Low Churches use the common language. In the EO, it is primarily the Byzantine Rite almost always done in the local language (except the Slavic churches, they usually do it in Church Slavonic, and in the diasporatic Churches in America. That depends on if they are Greek, Russian, Bulgaraian, etc. Antiochians and the Orthodox Church of America predominantly do the services in English. There are also Western Rite parishes which use a different yet equally valid rite more similar to Lutheran or Catholic mass). The Orthodox encourage standing during services (minimizing the use of pews), and also practice making the sign of the Cross. It is always choir based with no musical accompaniment (except in Western Rite parishes). The actual service can last between an hour to three hours depending on the Priest and Church. Typically its about 95% service and worship to about 5% preaching/lecturing. This changes between priests and I'm not sure if that's as accurate to the Western Rite practice either.
The Orthodox revere the Saints and Angel's and Mary through the use of Icons. They also encourage the practice of Hesychasm, inner ceaseless prayer, which typically takes the form of repeatedly saying "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy on Me, a Sinner." The Icons are not Idolotrous or graven images, they are portraits to remind us of the Saint or of Christ. You show the person portrayed love and respect by kissing the Icon in greeting. It is not magical, it is not worship, it is a greeting and show of affection. We pray for the Saints that they may pray for us and aid us spiritually to Christ. We do not pray to them in worship. It is akin to asking a friend or family member to pray for you as you pray for them, except this person has demonstrated great virtue in Christ. We still Pray to Christ and emphasize that all prayer goes back to Christ. Mary holds a very important place as the Theotokos (Mother of God). Repeated prayer is not vain repetition, its practice. You are to meditate on it to come to mean what you say.
Nathan Gomez
(Cont.)
Fasting and almsgiving is a constant in the Orthodox world. You are supposed to keep the fast every week, and always be charitable. Easter is also a huge deal, greater than Christmas. It's a long fast, concluded with a great feast (one of many, unique in it's own way).
Abortion is strictly prohibited by the Church. It is a sin. Like all sins however, that is to be worked out on a case by case basis. In no uncertain terms does the Church condone abortions or see at as anything but a sin. Contraception is only permissible with a blessing from the spiritual father, must be non-abortive (condoms, not morning-after), and should not be used to avoid child birth for selfish reasons. Vague, but it's more situational and it's more preferred to practice marital abstinence than contraception. Marriage can be between Orthodox and non-Orthodox but must be strictly Male and female and the wedding must take place in an Orthodox Church. Widows and Widowers can remarry without divorce as the marriage is considered ended HOWEVER it is still encouraged that the widow or widower remain faithful to their departed and not remarry. Divorce is a sin, as marriage is a sacred bond. But if a marriage breaks down, as it is a union between two sinful beings, it is accepted but not without consequence. The Church is forgiving, as it will allow a second marriage, and in extreme cases a third but no more. There usually is a serious process involved in divorce and remarriage, usually involving confession and a denial of the sacrament of the Eucharist for two years, before the individual can be allowed to even consider marriage or communion again. This goes as well for abortion or killing in general. Of course, the Church is comprised of sinners and even the priesthood fall short at times. The teaching is sound, but the practitioners are flawed.
The biggest difference between the two is that Lutheranism is more abstract and academic, relying more on the intellectualism of the theory, while the Orthodox is more hands on and about practice over theory. I'd reccomend you check out Fr. Thomas Hopko and Metropolitan Kallistos Ware. Both have done great works explaining Orthodox Theology. I hope this has been accurate and helpful, but I am human. If there is anything inaccurate or confusing, please let me know.
Thomas Edwards
Yeah but which denomination is true?
Gavin Miller
Wow, that is a wall of text. I have to go to bed, but I'll read it all when I get up.
What's wrong with them understanding and calling out the evil in today's world? You think I'm going to hop on some Orthodoxy dick because of it? I doubt they believe what I believe. I left Lutheranism because they literally didn't practice what they preach enough for me. I doubt an older and from what I understand very tradition steeped church would fit that bill. I'm trying to get away from churches that reach traditions of men and not traditions of god. IIRC, Orthodoxy still believes in intercession of saints, which is already a dealbreaker for me.
Oliver Perez
LCMS here.
Unfortunately, the LCMS website does not have a comparison of its teachings to Orthodoxy. lcms.org
I found this video helpful.
Sebastian Davis
No. Do your own homework.
John Jones
Not asking anyone to fight. I just want to hear some of user's opinions.
Adam Clark
We all have faith in Christ’s sacrifice, his resurrection, and our salvation. This sort of dividing between sects of Christianity is cancerous.
Carter Robinson
Please become Catholic. It's the only true Church!
Ryder Hall
Amen it is!
Cooper King
So you seek to suit your preferences and not the truth. This insufferable attitude is why cathodox both disdain Protestants, they have this pathology that they alone can be their own authorities. For this reason the hypocrisy abounds, but hypocrisy isn't a logical reason to doubt. Christ Himself said to do as the scribes and the Pharisees said and not as they do, because for all their faults they spoke the truth. The Orthodox may call out modernism today and be like the Catholics tomorrow, who called out modernism in the 20th century. These things ebb and flow as the Church faces the new evils of the modern world.
Yeah well going to hell is even more cancerous, which Protestantism and its myriad heresies has ensured for billions of souls. Christ came not to bring peace on earth, but a sword.
Logan Cruz
If they are my preferences, it is because scripture has led me to believe they are the truth. So there is no contradiction.
No, we think God and his Word are our authorities, which deprives you of power, which is what Catholics hate. The Triune God is my authority. God is no respecter of persons. If someone claims something, but they can't show where it is written, then it is just opinion at best.
Never heard that while I was LCMS. We believed in "true presence." You couldn't take communion if you believed it was symbolic. I'm fairly certain WELS believes this as well, as they tend to be even more conservative than LCMS. I can't speak for ELCA. They play pretty fast and loose sometimes.
We would never call it "mass," too much like RC.
IIRC they stopped doing that in like the 50's. It's all common language now, at least as far as LCMS. I don't know about WELS.
Anyway, thanks for the lesson. It is appreciated.
Grayson Anderson
Who decided the canon? Who were the witnesses and students of the "many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written"? The Ethiopian eunich who told Philip, "And how can I, unless some man shew me?", is illustrative of the need for sacred tradition and the deposit of faith. But what's the use in arguing? Anyone with a brain can sense that the same people who think the church was dead wrong for 1500 years and who idolize a book are full of shit.
Joseph Martin
You should check out the book 'Rock and Sand' by Fr Josiah Trenham, because it covers exactly that subject:
orthodoxinfo.com
Levi Allen
I'm also interested in either Lutheranism and Orthodoxy. Was raised pentecostal, but I joined the Lutheran state church last year. Recently have been visiting the local Orthodox church.
Levi Gray
But do they hold to the orthodox filioque (the Holy Spirit is sent in time by the Father and the Son, being of one operation with them, which reveals His consubstantiality with them) or to the Catholic filioque as defined at Florence (the Holy Spirit eternally, hypostatically proceeds from the Father and the Son and receives His essence from both)?
Do they also not venerate the Bible, or relics?
Justin Davis
Do you understand what filioque means? It's specifically Catholic. Filioque is an actual latin word meaning "and the Son". There is no Orthodox filioque.
Ayden Murphy
By "filioque" I mean the expression that the Holy Spirit proceeds "from the Father and the Son", which is used by several Orthodox saints.
Camden Howard
The Orthodox Church does not recognize the filioque as correct, nor that everything a saint says is 100% doctrinally true. There are saints who believe in the tollhouses, saints who oppose tollhouses, saints who recognize the papacy, and saints who do not.
That being said, I think I understand your point. It's an odd way of thinking about it to me.
Carson Thomas
It's not like there isn't a consensus on the procession of the Holy Spirit, though. What "proceeding from the Father and the Son" means to the Latin fathers is explained by Maximus the Confessor, Gregory of Cyprus, and Gregory Palamas. Besides, there is no saint who was in error about either the Trinity or the Incarnation, or else they would never have been able to be saints to begin with, but would have remained graceless heretics. The Trinity is certainly a more important doctrinal matter than ecclesiastical authority or what happens between death and the last judgment.
Aaron Morgan
St. Augustine confesses the exact doctrine of filioque (from both Father and Son, not from Father through Son) yet he is still considered a saint in the EO (tenuously sure, but still a saint). Palamas never taught the filioque and ardently rejected it, while the Catholics continue to believe in double procession (which is precisely what Maximus rejected). When you speak of the filioque you are talking about double procession, while Maximus, Photius, Palamas et all speak of single procession through Christ. Origen would have been a martyr-saint had he not been prevented
Logan Bailey
When I speak of "filioque" I speak of what the Fathers said by "procession from the Father and the Son", the Orthodox intepretation of which is different from the Catholic intepretation.
I'm not here to argue about whether it is the Catholics or the Orthodox who intepret Augustine correctly on the subject. I'm asking what the Lutheran interpretation is. Do they agree with the Council of Florence on this?
Maximus and Palamas speak of procession from the Father alone, but economic/energetic sending forth by or through the Son. This is the interpretation they make of the Latin expression of "proceeding from the Father and the Son". They, as well as Mark of Ephesus, do not condemn the Latin fathers as heretics for using this expression, but say that in Greek it would be said differently, and does not refer to hypostatic/essential origination.