just an extract from the instrumentum laboris of the Synod
"There is a need for a process of discernment in relation to the rituals, symbols and celebratory styles of indigenous cultures in contact with nature, which must be assumed in the liturgical and sacramental ritual. It is suggested that the liturgical celebrations be festive, with their own songs and dances, in tongues and with original costumes, in communion with nature and with the community.A liturgy that corresponds to their own culture, to be the source and summit of their Christian life (SC, 10), and linked to their struggles, sufferings and joys. The sacraments should be a source of life and medicine accessible to all (EG 47), especially to the poor (EG 200). It is asked to overcome the rigidity of a discipline that excludes and alienates, in favor of a pastoral sensitivity that accompanies and integrates (AL 297) In view of a salutary "decentralization" of the Church (EG, 16), the communities ask Episcopal Conferences to adapt the Eucharistic rituals to their own cultures." (n. 126)
Why the pooh is there a Synod for the Amazon? Will the other ecosystems get their Synods as well? Synod of the African Savannah, Synod of the Everglades, Synod of the Tundra, Synod of the Sahara.
“There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.) “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.) “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
Zero that are in good standing with Rome. Time to realize that you can’t reconcile traditional Catholicism with the contemporary Catholic Church and get out of your false antiChrist religion.
Josiah Stewart
Seriously my heresy folder is getting way too small, someone got more memes?
Didn't the Church do exactly the same thing with Latin, Greek, Syrian, Armenian, etc. cultures?
Evan Scott
Not really, no.
Ryan Wilson
Again: so just like happened with the various, diverse Rites and variations within Rites in the Church throughout history?
Pic related, a jijin. In China a head not covered was a sign of humiliation or disrespect, which is why Chinese priests would wear this headdress during the liturgy.
But masses have been held in the Amazonian region for centuries and no one complained about "muh native traditions". It's not like thet had a traditional form of Christianity as the Greeks, Maronites, Syro-Malabar, etc.
Aiden Myers
Culture in those places are heavily influenced by Iberian traditions, so it really makes no sense. Polite sage for double post
Are you dense? These Amazonians walk around with red face-paint and almost no clothes. They're shamanistic with nature-based religions and if anything the OP said was right it would mean half-naked face-painted pagan ritual dances for the Eucharistic liturgy.
Aiden Scott
Greeks, Syrians, Indians, etc. didn't originally have a traditional form of Christianity either - it was formed by development of Christianity within the local culture.
The indigenous culture also has a strong influence.
Is this wrong? Sure, to a Westerner it may be alien and unfamiliar. But is it wrong?
The Synod talks about a need for a process of discernment in relation to this. Not every element of the local culture should be mindlessly incorporated, you are right - but this doesn't mean that no element whatsoever should be incorporated.
See pic related for a good example of native, non-Western music used as a setting for a Latin Mass.
You're equating Congolese choral music with half-naked face-painted pagan rituals for Eucharistic liturgy.
Jason Smith
Meager when compared to the Iberian one. Unless you count the indian tribes which compose like 5% of the Amazonian population, but it's not them whom are pushing for this.
Pic related: two largest cities in the Amazon region.
OP again here let me add you that the instrumentum laboris has not been translated in english entirely yet, what I posted in the beginning is just and extract.. in the original document other worrying things are said
Jose Walker
1 Timothy 4
Ryan Lopez
And then the Reformation fixed it and purged it of that pagan cancer
Blake Peterson
Huh, I don't see any Celtic/Germanic nature worship in my Eucharistic liturgy. Wait, our places of worship are actual buildings and not sacred forests or groves? And where is my big """christian""" oak to dance around and lay gifts for?
I can only imagine to be honest. Care to give any examples?
Nathaniel Roberts
t. Seventh day adventist
Zachary Ortiz
Meme could be better if you got rid of the silly logo and all the words. In current form it looks like a leftwing meme-fail.
William Jackson
Not OR meme poster, but thought I give it a shot. Tbh, without context of the original meme, this comes across as some kind of interfaith exorcism
Most Catholics don't believe you have to be Baptized to be saved, and they deny the council of Florence. So what is the point of the rest of the faith.
Samuel Reyes
So called SSPX believes Muslims can die as Muslims and be saved LOL
Just do any basic search on it and you'll find this.
Hunter Stewart
I tried, nothing comes up.
Austin Jones
If you can't find this on Google…
Elijah Ortiz
Hold on all I’ve seen about this synod is they need a different type of grain for the Eucharist because the humidity makes it spoil and they don’t want a sort of Amazon Rite which is why they need to go there to make sure it DIDN’T go full paganism without enforcing European style masses on them.
I mean the Rite still has to follow certain rules because of the Jewish roots of it and the respect due to our Lord.
Charles Lopez
Did you read the working document?
Matthew Jackson
Provide a source or winnie the pooh off and stop bearing false witness against people.
Henry Walker
"Consider a Hindu in Tibet who has no knowledge of the Catholic Church. He lives according to his conscience and to the laws which God has put into his heart. He can be in the state of grace, and if he dies in this state of grace, he will go to heaven.” (The Angelus, “A Talk Heard Round the World,” April, 2006, p. 5. - Bishop Fellay). Contrast that with: "If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema."
Jaxon Martinez
Brother Dimond? Is that you? Still not seeing a source for your claim about Muslims.
Elijah Price
It's worse, because Hindus are literally pagan devil worshippers. That's a blatant denial of EENS.
Joshua Brooks
What are you on about that first part doesn’t contradict dogma we have believed that forever they just go to purgatory and are revealed the true God. St Paul even says God ignored the disobedience of the pagans because they did not know him. If you here the word and do not answer that is when you have no excuse not to follow.
Justin King
If anything he is reaffirming what Pope Pius IX said.
Ian Myers
Invincible ignorance isn't salvific. All salvation come through the Church. First, consider how rare a just man (like Blessed Joseph) is, then consider how much harder it is to be just without the Sacraments. Notice the "IF" their ignorance is truly invincible. In our time, there probably isn't such a thing as invincible ignorance (unless you're an isolated tribal human, but they have barbaric practices contrary to the natural law) rather, it's willful ignorance. So, a truly just noble savage would be incorporated to the Church at the moment of his death. But no man can be in a state of grace without the Sacraments, and we are all born sons of perdition because of Original Sin, this has been declared ex cathedra. The modernists want us to cry over the poor noble savage that a "just" God wouldn't let perish and go to Hell. So, God somehow lets him be saved as he is. That's Pelagian. They can't prove that such a thing would happen, nor can they prove that God didn't save him. It simply follows that God joined him to His church. Furthermore, invincible ignorance simply CANNOT apply to any Christians that are not Catholic today. Modernists love to do this, but it's false.
Easton Richardson
So, if such a person is truly of good will (that is, to a greater or lesser degree has a love of truth which is greater than their love of self), God will somehow get the Faith to him before he dies—we have seen this from the time of the Ethiopian eunuch in the Book of Acts down to the present day. But good will is a rare thing (those of us who go to confession know this). Further, we must beware of the phrase "good life." Since none of us can know (as the Council of Trent teaches infallibly) whether or not we ourselves are in a state of Grace—the only definition of a good life that has any meaning—we are not in a position to evaluate the spiritual position of anyone else. As Our Lord said, "none is good save he who does the will of my father in heaven." As with the person of "good life," it is not up to us to judge on the supposed "invincibility" of someone's ignorance. If that person is of goodwill, God will get the Faith to him. But the implication here is that ignorance is salvific! Surely it exonerates one from the immediate sin of not joining the Church, as Pius IX taught. But that is a negative thing. Christ taught that Baptism is necessary for salvation "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God." The Athanasian Creed, accepted as Infallible by the Church, begins with the warning: "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith, except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly." Were ignorance capable of saving one, it would be the cruelest thing to do as Christ commanded, and go forth to all nations, baptising and teaching them all things He taught us. It would be far kinder to leave them in their ignorance, which is so much easier to keep than our Catholic Faith with all its rules.
Andrew Jenkins
Why can't a prot have invincible ignorance? Does it really cease to be invincible once he's heard the word "Catholic"?
If people who are brought up in other religions have "invincible ignorance," doesn't that mean that only Catholics go to hell?
Sebastian Carter
Lol, just because you were born an raised a pagan doesn't give you a free pass from the sins you commit in life. If your shitty religion has you commiting buttsechs on others or murdering people or a other sins, you will be held accountable for it. Besides, we live in the age of the Internet. Where near unlimited knowledge is accessible to anyone and everyone. Shit even in public school you are taught about the true religion. "Invincible ignorance" is extremely rare to come by in today's time.
There is no excuse to not become a Christian and come home to Rome.
No. One has "invincible ignorance" when he hasn't had decent christian basics taught to him and after lots of research on its own came to an honest conclusion that it didn't make sense to him.
This means that everybody who grew up in school who had religious lessons about God, His Church and the bible have no excuse, but your average nomad on the steppes of Mongolia do. Also, you cannot just go and say to every pagan/atheist "hey God exists and Christ is His Son cya!" and declare that they had heard about God. God's not a pharisee, He looks at the spirit of the law not the letter.
Xavier Allen
So then why would Christ even have a public ministry…? Why wouldn't he just die on the cross without making any disciples or anything and let everyone get to Heaven through invincible ignorance…? Is he just self-aggrandizing and uncaring?
Aaron Jones
What part of "Invincible ignorance doesn't save you from the sins you commit in life" did you not understand? Jesus sacrificed Himself so we can know the way tword God. So we can know God authentically and have a path carved for us to His kingdom in heaven.
St. Thomas said you have to believe in the Trinity and Incarnation. Most have held this as the bare minimum. He said that if you were actually invincibly ignorant God would send a Man or Angel to give you the faith.
