Hi Zig Forums, I have been struggling to reconcile my faith with my nationalistic views… can Catholicism and Nationalism be compatible and not contradictory? If so, how? (pic unrelated)
Catholicism and Nationalism -- Compatible or Not?
Do you believe in freewill?
Yes but only if the State is entirely geared toward being a part of the Kingdom of God. Meaning all the laws are based on Canon law.
God created nations it is not wrong to love your nation for loving your nation is to love God so long as you understand God gave it to you and can take it away.
okay. so you support a government based on canonical law. How would it be structured. Not judging just curious. would it be democratic, but educating the populace in canon law, a theocracy based on compassion. or something else?
That wasnt me (OP) who said that, but yes I do believe in free will…
have you read the catechism for the church yet?
What about for issues like admitting refugees? I don't support admitting vast sums, or really even small sums, of foreigners into the country but would rather send appropriate aid over to those countries as a means of assistance for their humanitarian issues…
I would do that and Economic Aid. NOT "secular" aid that throws money at people not ready for it. People seem to forget that Lady Liberty is facing the see so that American Ideals would spread. Say what you want of america, but Our goal wasn't to become refugee haven. Our goal was to make it so there would be no need to run. I support the Idea of a PMC consisting of volunteers protecting and investing in far fledged Catholic communities and spreading Catholic Ideals
so you would consider it acceptable for a Catholic to have anti-refugee (in the sense that they do not want refugee intakes, or mass immigration for that matter) views?
i would do what would be better for the people. It would be more productive to help people in their homeland instead of them trekking 1000's of miles through hazards no man should go through
i try to stay away from politics because it makes my head numb. I believe it is better to prioritize helping people spiritually first. Our world has become too wrapped up with material thing that they forgot to take care of their soul.
that is not to say we should disregard the problems from the world. We need to see it from a different viewpoint. A Christian viewpoint. I believe our society need a spiritual revival badly. We need to realize our sinful nature and do our best to repent. Too much hatred
We should look at where we are as a society and focus our efforts on our faith. too much hedonism and materialism. I want prayer in school. I am against Abortion 100%. I want Church to return to be a focal point of life for humanity
We need to stop look at the blood on our hands and say "we need to stop and change our erroneous ways" for our sake and for the Lords sake. because there will be a time where we go a bridge too far and can't return
Any books or resources on Catholicism and Nationalism ?
It depends what do you mean by Nationalism.
Nationalism of Revolutionary France was different than Nationalism of António de Oliveira Salazar. Instead of asking about a meaningless label, ask what are specific political positions your Nationalism bounds you to. Does ot require you to hate other nations, does it try to justify sin in order to benefit the nation etc.
Pic related, Polish primate and cardinal, Stefan Wyszyński (1901-1981): "The party must correct its political assumptions, cutting off from cosmopolitanism and accepting healthy Nationalistic tendencies, though obviously - the primate repeated - I mean healthy Polish Nationalism, not Chauvinism or Fascism"
Catholicism basically advocates for Nationalism, so yes, and historically yes as well. Whatever nonsense we're trying out now is when the faith has been absolutely crumbling.
so you support a government based on canonical law. How would it be structured
Just look at the Holy Roman Empire. What they said was wrong it's not Canonical Law. Canon Law is for the Church. It regards things about how Priests do things how Nuns do things and so on. None of this has to be your countries law. But the "constitution" of the Country should be informed by the Moral Law of the church. Now just because something is a sin doesn't mean it has to be illegal, as St. Thomas Aquinas said. So the church merely informs the country. For example masturbation is a mortal sin that sends you to hell. But nobody is advocating to make that illegal. St Thomas said to this affect that even prostitution should not be illegal. However there are some thing where there is no wiggle room, such as abortion, murder etc. St. Thomas explains his reasoning on what sort of things there can be no compromise for legally and what there can be.
As for a democracy, you can have that if you want to, or a limited voting (if you pay taxes above a certain amount you can vote) etc, but you should have a moral constitution that you cannot violate by government. So for example the prohibition on abortion, there should be no legal recourse to change such a thing. Apart from that you can have whatever government you want. Also you have to ensure people have the option to own property. So I should be able to at least in theory own some land and have a farm. This is simply why Communism and Socialism have been condemned by the church, since they both prohibit the idea of private property, private meaning something like owning land where you have the right to own a farm, etc.
Fair points my friend. America was doing fine( despite prots) It wasn't until post ww2 that things changed drastically (the sexual revolution was a mistake) and seek to destroy what is Good and Just. I believe in a America. BUT Catholic. Prayer in school, ban on contraceptives and abortion, encourage church attendance among youth and other generations, discourage pornography and production of such, etc. i believe in a conservative Catholic mindset for the American public and government
These people aren't the Church. Stand by the Church, it needs your help now more than ever. This scum has to be cleansed, ripped out from the Church, absolutely decimated. Wish a real pope would come out and declare a crusade already. We'll fight with GOD on our side.
Nation is derived from the Latin 'natio', which means 'birth' or 'people'. Thus, the Catholic Church sees nationalism or patriotism (derived from 'patris', which means 'father' or 'fatherland') as an extension of the fourth commandment to honor thy father and mother. So yes, the Catholic Church does endorse nationalism and patriotism insofar as it is a true extension of the fourth commandment and not some factional perversion leveraged for political means.
To add to this, we are called to be kind to the stranger but if they impede the honor that's due to your ancestors then they are to be denied or expelled. We see this in the West, where refugees and immigrants threaten to destroy the nations that took literal millennia to build from nothing. To allow this to continue would be a grave dishonor to your ancestors going back countless generations.
Why stop there? Your logic concludes that all men are rapists because some men are wicked. This is the absurdity that decrees men should not hold positions of authority. Thank you post-modernism.
Not in modern times as nu-Catholicism exists solely to put third-world seats in pews and destroy natives through demographic warfare.
Back in the day it could as Christians rightly recognized natural hierarchy, kindred blood ties and the traditions of man as highly important but ever since modernity it has destroyed itself with base globalism and a burning hatred of all thinking men who don't consider it right to engage in usury or judaizing.
You join a new nation when you are baptized, cease grasping for the old one, and embrace the Kingdom of God. But, despite this fact, many Catholics do what they want. Just because a Bishop said a thing doesn't make it true. Do what you will here. God bless user.
there has always been a secular sphere in the christian world. Nothing wrong with it, it is precisely in right order for there to be one along side with the church.
The church is not revolutionary, it lived working alongside monarchs for a long time.
There is no clash between catholicism and nationalism.
There is a huge clash between international bolshevism/globalism and catholicism
I guedd that's why Peter "Europe must be forcibly dehomogenized at all costs" Sutherland was handpicked to chair the International Catholic Migration Commission by your Pope and his Ministry.
in which works does Aquinas say this? Please link if possible…
Catholicism is universalist, and thus inherently antagonistic to nationalism. You cannot be a true nationalist if your highest loyalty is to Bergoglio. Orthodox churches, on the other hand, are organised on a national basis, and are not subordinate to any foreign authority (the Ecumenical Patriarch is only first among equals).
Leave the schismatic church of Rome, and return to the ancient faith.
Imagine being such a worldly cuck that you want the Church subject to the state and not the state subject to the Church.
Google Aquinas Prostitution Legal
"America" as land or "America" as the concept it was founded on, which is fundamentally hostile towards Catholicism, or rather literally against it. We are a hostile force in America and always will be, and by America I mean the foundation it was founded on. It was never going good. It's like saying that when you live at the top of a highrise and the bottom floors are burning but for the first few hours "everything was going good". It was pozzed from the start. It was always terrible for Catholics in America but whatever. Yeah let's try and win it over. Who knows what will happen, I think it's within the realm of possibilities the world isn't going to last for that much longer anways but we have to try.
Anyways what I've started to realize more and more is that sure knowing some intellectual arguments is good and all and blah blah but that shit is nonsense in the end. It's not what we need. We need very saintly people, like real Saints. Saints like St. Francis or St. Anthony etc. People who's conduct is amazing, who people just know this guy is really a holy person. We need people like this to lead our movement, only then we have a shot. People like that can convince loads of people of whatever, because people are convinced by characters of people, they don't know anything about theology or this or that. If you find an incredibly saintly person saying well something theology most people are gonna be like, man whatever he says, I'm with this guy, and so on.
All the people in our movement are pozzed with terrible history and no real reform and so on so we'll never get anywhere. Sure we should study and educate ourselves and practice debating/fighting on the internet (very good practice in general for learning good rhetoric strategies in my opinion) but none of this is gonna win us stuff. The enemy has to use money and satanic nonsense to convince people, we have to use holy methods, by becoming very holy ourselves. Otherwise nothing is really going to work.
But yeah I guess it doesn't hurt thinking of ways to get the message out there more, but really it's not just the message. People have to get to know you, yourself. People always say "don't argue the person, argue the idea". This is NONSENSE. Lol people are idiots man. You think any of these people converting to Catholicism can understand anything of the Trinity or anything. No obviously not. They just know this guy is a really holy guy his vibe is awesome. I trust him. You have to be holy and if you're a really holy pious person you can say you're against shutting down almost all immigration and people who know this guy is very holy and great will be like yeah okay maybe he has a point. If you're some nobody they'll never ever ever listen to you. If they know you are out there every day feeding the homeless, praying the rosary everyday 15 decades doing this that etc (and I mean not just superficially) they're gonna listen to you. You dont even need arguments. This is what I realized.
« The worship due to our parents includes the worship given to all our kindred, since our kinsfolk are those who descend from the same parents, according to the Philosopher (Ethic. viii, 12). The worship given to our country includes homage to all our fellow-citizens and to all the friends of our country. Therefore piety extends chiefly to these. »
Summa Theologica, IIa IIae, q.101
« No one would think of preventing young Germans establishing a true ethnical community in a noble love of freedom and loyalty to their country. »
Pius XI, Mit Brennender Sorge
« Hence in natural things species seem to be arranged in degrees; as the mixed things are more perfect than the elements, and plants than minerals, and animals than plants, and men than other animals; and in each of these one species is more perfect than others. Therefore, as the divine wisdom is the cause of the distinction of things for the sake of the perfection of the universe, so it is the cause of inequality. For the universe would not be perfect if only one grade of goodness were found in things. »
Summa Theologica Ia, q.47 art.2
Natural differences and the respect to have for them
« Difference of race, condition and body are indeed taken away by the unity of faith, but it remains embedded in our mortal interactions, and in the journey of this life the apostles themselves teach that it is to be respected. For we observe in the unity of faith that there is no distinctions. Yet within the orders of this life they persist. »
St. Augustine, Commentary on Galatians.
Imagine thinking that their relationship can't be symbiotic.
This, people here need to understand this, it's extremely important. Consider how e.g. Saint Dominic converted people from Cathar heresy - by becoming a poor, wandering holy man. And people were attracted by this holiness, just like they were put off by the opulence and wealth of the rest of the clergy that caused them to drift away from the Church in the first placs.
by America I mean the foundation it was founded on. It was never going good. It's like saying that when you live at the top of a highrise and the bottom floors are burning but for the first few hours "everything was going good". It was pozzed from the start
Yep. One quick look into the backgrounds of the Founding Fathers will make that abundantly clear; nearly all of them were agnostics/Protestants/Unitarians who placed science, secularism, imperialism, liberalism, and so forth above God, and many were Freemasons.
AMERICA WITH BILL OF RIGHTS but CATHOLIC traditions. People attack our 2nd amendment saying "so many people die by the hand of guns" they don't mention FAR MORE people are saved by self defense. I saw someone post that you don't need guns to protest by posting the man in front of tanks at Tienanmen square. what he DIDN"T mention was that people WERE run down by tanks at tianemenn. Point is, WAR is FAR too often the ONLY answer. Authoritarian regimes are not so easily thrown by peaceful protest. VIOLENCE is often the only answer to incompetent government. Our government was founded because of all the incompetency at the hands of European (and other) powers,
Because EUROPE was tearing themselves apart with countless war. authoritarian regimes are too susceptible to corruption. The only king I follow is Christ. I follow no king of man. we left the king because He was incompetent. And are people not capable of good ideas even if they have strayed beliefs. Shit, everyone shits on america, except Poland usually, saying "oh you need a king, you shouldn't be ruled by the people," unaware that authoritarians ARE people, and are just as likely, if not more via power, to be corrupted. I rarely trust Authorities to NOT be corrupt, via experience with education.
besides, I don't like the idea of waiting for police to protect me. Leftists use that argument unaware of how many people die waiting for said police. in fact it can take 40 minutes plus for police to come help in some parts of the country. I also want to NOT end up in a mass grave if I can help it, like in katyn or Buchenwald. I don't want ANYONE to suffer persecution. (Cruel, degenerate, and/or they may be) because they WILL lash out and everything get thrown out. church parishioners etc.>>820487 If the Church itself is able to be corrupted, WHY should I live at the hands of an authoritarian regime that is even MORE likely to be corrupt?
*and/or protty they may be)
You want America to be catholic. SHOW THEM WHAT A REAL CHURCH looks like. Show Pentecostals that a REAL church does NOT speak tongues. Tell Greedy Christians that a REAL Church does NOT support wealth doctrine. Tell the liberal "churches' that A REAL Church does NOT support Gay "marriage" and does not encourage Transgenderism. Tell them that a REAL CHURCH has Masses dedicated to GOD and NOT to the weakness of man. You don't need to change our government. YOU NEED to shove the church down their throats and make them swallow. THAT is what you do. AND ALSO TELL the parishioners of those Mega churches that they should love god for WHO HE IS. NOT for petty material things
DO NOT encourage them by trying to appease them by Prottying the church to their whims. SHOVE IN THEIR PIE HOLES. Also expose, rebuke, and forgive them, even if they may not like it
no country is without sins. "America created progressive movement " Germany created marxism and nazism?you gonna attack them? the Point is that ALL COUNTRIES have sinned to some extent. Our country is NOT perfect. it got hijacked by leftists long ago. i have trouble with autocracy because it often entails ruthless persecution, whether it be poles, Jews, Catholics, Russians, even if they might be in the wrong. I love you guys but autocracy is too vulnerable to abuse. NO MATTER how good their intentions may be. because it is ruled by man. I will await Christs arrival with excitement. because HIS rule is JUST. Not ours
And Catholics are Better respected in america nowadays than hundreds of years ago. Many myths, such as treason are dispelled. We are sympathetic to prots due to persecution of anti christian elements in the world. (Even if they are heretics) Why must we fight each other to death? I hate it! I hate that we are tearing ourselves apart and not living brotherly. It upsets me that we are always focused. I'm a conflicted man, anons. I don't want people being persecuted, but I can't stand protestantism. I want us to show them the way
via through mass exposure of our Ideals. NOT by treating them like dogs, tempting it may be
Pic related, its how authoritarians can so easily go wrong. I don't want ANYONE to be persecuted, wrong they may be. Nationalism, communism, monarchy ( except Christ as king) sounds good. but too often corrupted by MAN. Too much power for anyone. Church, state, me even. Too much power in a few hands is too much for anyone to handle. ONLY CHRIST can handle that power. FOR HE IS JUST
shit forgot pic
Patriotism: A super Natural Virtue.
Also, as a Knight of Columbus, I can whole heartedly say there is nothing wrong with wanting whats best for your nation. Your nation is your home afterall. Would you allow complete strangers that have no regard for the laws of the land into your home? Would you allow them to leech off your hard earned money while they contribute nothing back? No, because that wouldn't make sense.
FFS, sometime earlier this week some globalist protesters desecrated the flag and flew a foregin flag in it's place at an ICE facility. If these damn illegals love their old homes so much, why bother comming here illegally in the first place? It's almost as if they have no love for our nation and only care about the free gibs-me-dats.
i agree. Our country has problems. But what country doesn't. I don't want anything having total control (except Christ). Power like that corrupts men
Well yeah power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Only the V2 communist/freemason infiltrators have a problem with nationalism.
For discussion free from Papist censorship, visit:
By that logic God is corrupt. The Stanford prison experiment was a lie. All the guards had been told to act super mean beforehand and the inmates had been told they would be allowed to make homework while in prison, thats why they panicked when they werent and werent allowed to leave. medium.com
Have you ever heard of "Ireland"?
or The HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE LOL!
GOD CAN"T BE CORRUPT. If vatican 2 had its way, many here would would be silenced simply for not agreeing with modernists changes to the church, they'd even put an end to TLM possibly. IF HOLY MOTHER CHURCH is herself corrupted by those who seek its destruction, HOW can we expect them to NOT put an end to those they deem a threat to their reign. I love the Church, I want them to succeed. But mixing the Machiavellian nature of government with the holiness of the Church would damage the church more than help it. I want accountability in politics. I was a nationalist FYI info, I see freedom as interconnected with freewill, not the same, but similar in nature. I have the freedom to join RCIA and become a devout Catholic if I want. I have the ability to express FREEWILL in America. Freedom is an expression of freewill. If NOT explain to me how they are total opposites
ABSOLUTE POWER to MAN will corrupt. GOD by nature can't be corrupted. MAN by his nature CAN. Such a silly strawman, cmon
inb4 french revolution, libertine. cmon. Explain to me HOW FREEDOM is NOT intertwined with FREEWILL. I have yet to see an argument that does not use muh libertines, muh deists muh freemasons. HELL are freemasons, today even the same as those of the revolution. I remembered reading somewhere that the masons were hijacked by neer-do-wells back in the mid 19th and were turned into the monsters they are today. before they were (mostly harmless) NOW I doubt it
can Catholicism and Nationalism be compatible and not contradictory?
Poland, Ireland, Spain, Italy… some national identities revolve around Catholicism. If your national identity is one of those, then the answer is yes, absolutely. However, if your national identity was founded on the rejection of Catholicism, then the answer is likely a "no". I have to ask, OP, what national identity are we talking about?
You want America to be Catholic? SHOW PROTS WHAT A REAL CHURCH looks like. Put them to shame. make Pentecostal feel stupid for speaking tongue. Show Lutherans that a REAL church has a valid Eucharist
Take it easy guys. I wasnt strawmaning anyone. I thought he genuinely meant absolute power corrupts absolutely. I wasnt argueing for God being corrupt I was agueing against that statement. I don't think having childrens automatically makes you a child abuser for example. Which some people who say power corrupts seem to imply.
i agree. As someone who experienced nationalized government education, I was a trouble student. It was through great love that i didn't snap. But thanks to you guys I REALIZE that emotions are the devils playground. I have found peace in prayer and it makes SO MUCH sense. I listened to rippenger on spiritual warfare And I know that emotions can NOT be trusted as Satan manipulates with great malice. He almost got me all those years ago. I am now calm inside almost always and emotions are not relied upon as often
God love you user
I know He does. I want to do things in his Glory for all time. I want The Latin mass to be brought in full force and made ENTIRELY in gods honor. Only the FINEST things will be used to honor God. He deserves nothing less