Hello /chritians/.
As I entered the in the Chrstian religion, i have this question that is stuck in my head. Who's the real church of God?
Is the Roman Catholic Churc? or in reality is one the other branches like the Orthodox? or the Baptist?, or other Protestants Churches?
What's your explaination anons?
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Although the Catholic Church was the original, all main stream branches of Christianity get the main idea: that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He is the only way to heaven. There are slight to major different beliefs for each branch, but so long as you go to a church that says that Jesus is God, you’ll be fine
I OBJECT
The one where people follow Jesus
Go on then
“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, EX CATHEDRA, 1302.)
“The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, EX CATHEDRA, 1441.)
Not me speaking, but the Vicar of Christ.
Only a Church with valid Sacraments and Apostolic tradition can be considered the true Church. Get out Prots and Baptist your beliefs are empty.
Don’t let Orthodox confuse you the schism was purely doctrinal and in no way do either the East or West carry any heretical belief like the Protestants did when they went into schism.
The West and East may not be in full communion however the Sacraments are still valid in both Churches meaning they are still a part of the Same Church just in disagreement over earthly matters. It’s complicated but the Lord will sort it out so it is fine for now.
Pretty much this. Love, faith and hope come before anything else. It's sad to see Christians fight over the denomination meme in the most unchristian manner. Caths and orthos are schismatic, not heretics. We have (mostly) the same beliefs but different hierarchical structures. In fact, the excommunications were revoked in 1965. I'd advise you to follow whichever is more in line with your culture, since it'll be easier to connect with it's message and it's way to live Christianity. For most of us, that's Catholicism, but some people in the east may find Orthodox churches are better for them.
Just avoid LARPing, and remember that love for Jesus comes before the technicalities of the law. But do not fall into the arrogant trap of thinking you need no law nor tradition and only need "sola scriptura", though that's been extensively covered in this board
Not him but I think you kind of simplified the issue a little bit too much. The letters in the NT are filled with churches that were lukewarm or allowed some sin and were needed to be visited by Paul or some other apostle to get back to the Truth.
There are a plenty of Churches right now that say Jesus is God yet allow Sin on an even larger scale than they did in the bible. They muddy the message and turn people away from the Truth.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.
Mark 7:6-9
And he said to them, “Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, “‘This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’ You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men.” And he said to them, “You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!
2 Timothy 4:3-4
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.
To OP's question
I think that sadly there is no real practical answer.
The Catholics might claim that their Church is the one and only with unbroken tradition and all that. But I think looking at their past the Catholics Church certainly has made some pretty huge mistakes showing that their popes aren't infallible and even if you agree with the mainline Catholic teachings which in and of itself might have some problems that have filled countless threads on this board. I'm sure you can find plenty of material on the internet to see for yourself. Regardless your local Catholic Church can always have a bad or good pastor. Sames goes for all other denominations.
I think the best way for your personal life is just checking out the Churches in your area. See what they're are actually teaching and whether the live what they preach or are just talking in vain.
1 John 4:1
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
The most important thing is reading your bible preferably daily and pray daily for knowledge and wisdom and see if the churches are preaching what you think the bible says. If they preach something different just ask the pastor. In my experience they're usually happy to answer and explain and might clear up confusion or they might not in which case it might be time to look for a different Church.
Are you serious right now?
The Roman Catholic Church does consider the EO churches to be in heresy. There are some very considerable theological differences that have developed over a thousand years, my friend.
The Orthodox don't really claims this. The issue was always very political, as was made clear through the crowning of Charlemagne:
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If you want to be a Christian, then being a Roman Catholic is the surest way to go. Jesus gave St. Peter the keys and founded it upon him, quotes from the Fathers of the Church prove this.
t. CLEMENT
The Epistle to Corinth
newadvent.org
Chapter 59
If, however, any shall disobey the words spoken by Him through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in transgression and serious danger;
Chapter 63
Right is it, therefore, to approach examples so good and so many, and submit the neck and fulfil the part of obedience, in order that, undisturbed by vain sedition, we may attain unto the goal set before us in truth wholly free from blame. Joy and gladness will you afford us, if you become obedient to the words written by us and through the Holy Spirit root out the lawless wrath of your jealousy according to the intercession which we have made for peace and unity in this letter.
St. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Romans
newadvent.org
Greeting
Ignatius, who is also called Theophorus, to the Church which has obtained mercy, through the majesty of the Most High Father, and Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son; the Church which is beloved and enlightened by the will of Him that wills all things which are according to the love of Jesus Christ our God, which also presides in the place of the region of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise, worthy of obtaining her every desire, worthy of being deemed holy, and which presides over love, is named from Christ, and from the Father, which I also salute in the name of Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father: to those who are united, both according to the flesh and spirit, to every one of His commandments; who are filled inseparably with the grace of God, and are purified from every strange taint, [I wish] abundance of happiness unblameably, in Jesus Christ our God.
Ch 3
You have never envied any one; you have taught others. Now I desire that those things may be confirmed [by your conduct], which in your instructions you enjoin [on others].
earlychristianwritings.com
Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her that hath found mercy in the bountifulness of the Father Most High and of Jesus Christ His only Son; to the church that is beloved and enlightened through the will of Him who willed all things that are, by faith and love towards Jesus Christ our God; even unto her that hath the presidency in the country of the region of the Romans, being worthy of God, worthy of honour, worthy of felicitation, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy in purity, and having the presidency of love, walking in the law of Christ and bearing the Father's name; which church also I salute in the name of Jesus Christ the Son of the Father; unto them that in flesh and spirit are united unto His every commandment, being filled with the grace of God without wavering, and filtered clear from every foreign stain; abundant greeting in Jesus Christ our God in blamelessness.
Alternate translation by Fr. Casimir Kucharek
"To the Church…that presides in
the district of the Romans, and which is worthy of God, worthy
of honor, worthy of the highest happiness, worthy of praise,
worthy of credit, worthy of being deemed holy, and which is
the head of the union of charity i.e., of Christendom. "
ST.IRENAEUS OF LYONS
Against Heresies (Book III, Chapter 3)
Section 2
newadvent.org
Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority [potiorem principalitatem].
And many more.
wrong. BEGOME ORDODOX :DDDDDDDD
Some more just for kicks, later ones after a couple of Ecumenical Councils.
ST. AMBROSE
tertullian.org
LETTER XLII. [A.D.389.]
TO THEIR LORD, THEIR DEARLY BELOVED BROTHER, POPE SIRICIUS, AMBROSE, SABINUS, BASSANIUS, AND THE REST SEND GREETING.
1. In your Holiness' Letter we recognized the vigilance of a good shepherd, for you faithfully guard the door which has been entrusted to you, and with pious solicitude watch over the fold of Christ, being worthy to be heard and followed by the sheep of the Lord. Knowing therefore the lambs of Christ, you will easily discover the wolves, and meet them as a wary shepherd, so as to keep them from scattering the Lord's flock by their unbelieving life and dismal barking.
2. We praise you for this, our Lord and brother dearly beloved, and join in cordial commendations of it. Nor are we surprised that the Lord's flock was terrified at the rage of wolves in whom they recognized not the voice of Christ. For it is a savage barking to shew no reverence to virginity, observe no rule of chastity, to seek to place every thing on a level, to abolish the different degrees of merit, and to introduce a certain meagreness in heavenly rewards, as if Christ had only one palm to bestow, and there was no copious diversity in His rewards.
ST. BASIL OF CAESAREA (329 - 379)
Letter to the Bishops of the West
newadvent.org
The good God Who ever mixes consolation with affliction has, even now in the midst of my pangs, granted me a certain amount of comfort in the letters which our right honourable father bishop Athanasius has received from you and sent on to me. For they contain evidence of sound faith and proof of your inviolable agreement and concord, showing thus that the shepherds are following in the footsteps of the Fathers and feeding the people of the Lord with knowledge.
The Lord has also extended His consolation to me by means of the reverend deacon Sabinus, my son, who has cheered my soul by giving me an exact narrative of your condition; and from personal experience of his own, will give you clear tidings of ours, that you may, in the first place, aid me in my trouble by earnest and constant prayer to God; and next that you may consent to give such consolation as lies in your power to our afflicted Churches.
ST.JEROME
Letter 15
Section 1
newadvent.org
Since the East, shattered as it is by the long-standing feuds, subsisting between its peoples, is bit by bit tearing into shreds the seamless vest of the Lord, "woven from the top throughout," John 19:23 since the foxes are destroying the vineyard of Christ, Song of Songs 2:15 and since among the broken cisterns that hold no water it is hard to discover "the sealed fountain" and "the garden inclosed," Song of Songs 4:12 I think it my duty to consult the chair of Peter, and to turn to a church whose faith has been praised by Paul. I appeal for spiritual food to the church whence I have received the garb of Christ. The wide space of sea and land that lies between us cannot deter me from searching for "the pearl of great price." Matthew 13:46 "Wheresoever the body is, there will the eagles be gathered together." Matthew 24:28 Evil children have squandered their patrimony; you alone keep your heritage intact.
Section 2
Yet, though your greatness terrifies me, your kindness attracts me. From the priest I demand the safe-keeping of the victim, from the shepherd the protection due to the sheep. Away with all that is overweening; let the state of Roman majesty withdraw. My words are spoken to the successor of the fisherman, to the disciple of the cross. As I follow no leader save Christ, so I communicate with none but your blessedness, that is with the chair of Peter. For this, I know, is the rock on which the church is built! Matthew 16:18 This is the house where alone the paschal lamb can be rightly eaten. Exodus 12:22 This is the Ark of Noah, and he who is not found in it shall perish when the flood prevails.
Letter 16
newadvent.org
The untiring foe follows me closely, and the assaults that I suffer in the desert are severer than ever. For the Arian frenzy raves, and the powers of the world support it. The church is rent into three factions, and each of these is eager to seize me for its own. The influence of the monks is of long standing, and it is directed against me. I meantime keep crying: "He who clings to the chair of Peter is accepted by me."
May you be blessed and shown the truth of the Lord.
I truly can't help myself.
ST. JOHN CHRYSOSTOM
Homily 88 on the Gospel of John
newadvent.org
John 21:15
1. There are indeed many other things which are able to give us boldness towards God, and to show us bright and approved, but that which most of all brings good will from on high, is tender care for our neighbor. Which therefore Christ requires of Peter. For when their eating was ended, Jesus says to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of Jonas, do you love Me more than these? He says unto Him, Yea, Lord, You know that I love You."
"He says unto him, Feed My sheep."
And why, having passed by the others, does He speak with Peter on these matters? He was the chosen one of the Apostles, the mouth of the disciples, the leader of the band; on this account also Paul went up upon a time to enquire of him rather than the others. And at the same time to show him that he must now be of good cheer, since the denial was done away, Jesus puts into his hands the chief authority among the brethren; and He brings not forward the denial, nor reproaches him with what had taken place, but says, "If you love Me, preside over your brethren, and the warm love which you ever manifested, and in which you rejoiced, show thou now; and the life which you said you would lay down for Me, now give for My sheep."
John 21:19
"This spoke He, signifying by what death he should glorify God."
He said not, "Should die," but, "Should glorify God," that you may learn, that to suffer for Christ, is glory and honor to the sufferer.
"And when He had spoken this, He says, Follow Me."
Here again He alludes to his tender carefulness, and to his being very closely attached to Himself. And if any should say, "How then did James receive the chair at Jerusalem?" I would make this reply, that He appointed Peter teacher, not of the chair, but of the world.
John 21:20-21
"Then Peter turning about, sees the disciple whom Jesus loved following; who also leaned on His breast at supper; and says, Lord, and what shall this man do?"
2. Wherefore has he reminded us of that reclining? Not without cause or in a chance way, but to show us what boldness Peter had after the denial. For he who then did not dare to question Jesus, but committed the office to another, was even entrusted with the chief authority over the brethren, and not only does not commit to another what relates to himself, but himself now puts a question to his Master concerning another. John is silent, but Peter speaks. He shows also here the love which he bare towards him; for Peter greatly loved John, as is clear from what followed, and their close union is shown through the whole Gospel, and in the Acts. When therefore Christ had foretold great things to him, and committed the world to him, and spoke beforehand of his martyrdom, and testified that his love was greater than that of the others, desiring to have John also to share with him, he said, "And what shall this man do?" "Shall he not come the same way with us?" And as at that other time not being able himself to ask, he puts John forward, so now desiring to make him a return, and supposing that he would desire to ask about the matters pertaining to himself, but had not courage, he himself undertook the questioning. What then says Christ?
God bless Chrysostom.
True, but it’s kinda hypocritical of the Catholic Church to point fingers and say that others are heretical when they themselves have strayed far from the Bible’s teachings (I know this statement is probably going to backfire on me)
Where did the Catholics stray?
Catholics or EO don't believe that St.Peter was telling the truth when he wrote "receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls." only reformed people do.
You can figure out Catholicism is basically the only option by ruling out other denominations;
A simple faith for a simple mind, truly the work of the devil to have created such a thing to deceive.
The prayer to others that are not Christ Himself, not recognizing the direct link to you and God Himself, Popes being infallible, purgatory, Baptisms at birth, not having direct access to scripture, etc.
These are all obscenely low-tier Prot memes. Read a Catechism.
...
The word itself. Part of the joy of learning about the history of Christianity is the mystery and discovery about the words themselves. As you get more advanced, you understand the impact of the words transforming empires at the largest scales and individuals at the smallest. You also understand the magnitute of those who sacrificed or stayed true evening as they were torn apart by lions and tigers for the spectacle of those looking for entertainment by such a thing. The words turn into action, the actions to into inspiration– a cure to evil and hatred. You gain insight into what Jesus meant when He said those words even clearer. You become an obedient with understanding that there is no better path to be on and that you will be not alone as you walk it. The words themselves and the rest is up to us.
The catholic church didn't "make the Bible", they simply recognized its authority as every other denomination does. The books aren't infallible because some organization says so but because they are written by God, and all we've done is recognize that authority when we include certain books.
Certain uninteresting things are best not to waste your time on. God bless user.
Literally what authority, how can you determine what is and isn't scripture without the guidance of the Holy Spirit, you can't
The Catholic Church under this guidance determined what is and isn't scripture, compiled it together and declared that it was the Bible, which was then butchered in the reformation for no reason at all.
Semantics. The councils that determined the biblical canon did, in a very real way, "make the bible" by way of determining which writings would be compiled into the canon and which would be excluded.
The very faction that executed also got to choose what part of the words they liked and didn't like… really getting the noggin joggin.
The apocrypha wasn't canonized until the counter-reformation
That God didn't like* (or think were prudent for the masses, you can still read many if you like, Hermas is good for all ages).
literally wat? The "apocrypha" was contained in the ancient LXX/DSS scriptures Jesus himself likely taught from. There's simply no way of reconciling that with the notion that the validity of scriptures was somehow completely vague until 1500 years after Jesus' death.
It was canonized at Hippo and Carthage.
You know those paintings are anit-religious, right? They seemed deeply disturbing, so I reverse searched them. The artist calls himself "Stu Mead". Google it at your own discretion, since "art" of girls having sex with demons on top of an altar and other similar things will come up (lots and lots of """art""" of naked young girls). Here's the wikipedia article about this man: en.wikipedia.org
If you were saving those pics as "Christian art", you may want to rethink it.
that's fine - it just means that people have to become roman catholic to be saved. If a man were to die a protestant, but then through some means become catholic before his soul is judged, he would of course be saved just like any catholic who died catholic, because he is a catholic, with a catholic baptism and everything. It is therefor possible for those who die as non-catholics to be saved, without contradicting no salvation outside the church, and why the church holds that it is possible for protestants to be saved… by converting :).
The holy spirit experienced death on the cross too, he is in no way lacking in the redemptive economy. So through a baptism of spirit, prots and even outright non-Christians gain at least one opportunity to convert to Catholicism. It is absolutely necessarily true that conversion outside of earthly life is possible, because if it weren't, the old testament saints would still be in hell (which contradicts scripture that says they are after Jesus preached the gospel to the dead, are now saved). These men had not recieved a catholic baptism, - the grace of rebirth as a child of God [which is why they were in limbo in the first place], and yet were saved in the end as Catholics through a baptism of spirit. It could not be through material water, for there is likely no matter in hell.
Lastly if it were true that there was no salvation outside the church AND that people did not have any opportunity to convert to Catholicism, then this would contradict Christ's own principles. ex. would have commit no sin, but told you many signs and miracles, so now you have commited sin.
yada yada that's the gist of it anyways.
Thank you user, I am aware. He is one of my favorite artist.