Stop using harmful software

what's the solution? what should people be working on?

it might sound crazy but if a good team of people actually worked on a new OS they COULD build it. Hobbyists build shitty OSs all the time, it isn't unrealistic for some people with a shared vision to build a decent one. What are some examples of good stuff to study and learn from?

OS layer does not actually matter that much. Everything is cheaply virtualized at this point. HTTP and JSON can be used for pretty much anything and are simple text protocols.

So we should look into unikernels or what?

Of course not. Don't worry about the OS. Let it manage your hardware and resources. You concentrate on getting your useful tools built.

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Its going to be run on Intel anyways. Your memory is already fucked. No OS hacks will save you.

Good goy.

Oh boy i know where this thread is going now.

I can't take anyone who recommends Ed as a text editor seriously.

Then I guess you don't take any of the people at Bell Labs seriously; they exclusively used ed before Pike invented sam and acme. Try using ed for small edits, it's surprisingly usable.

You the fag posting on Lukes forum?

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Why? Can someone enlighten me?

Life is bloat

Nice meme, m8.

Unix was a much smaller system that was completely feasible to edit with ed.

...

I also wish to know about this

I can't take anyone who recommends anything other than gedit seriously.

There wasn't much choice of what kind of editor back in the 70's when a lot of people were using hardcopy teletypes. Even CP/M came with something similar to ed.
I don't know why someone would want to use ed as main editor today (which his list seems to imply). It's a lot nicer to edit in vi, and it's not much bigger than ed.

ITS is simpler than Multics, but that doesn't make it more similar to UNIX. The UNIX-Haters were mostly Multics, ITS, and Lisp machine programmers and users who understood why UNIX sucked.

Multics, VMS, the Lisp machines, and various mainframe systems.

The OS is the second most important thing after the hardware. "Doesn't matter" is another way of saying it sucks.

What I find disgusting about UNIX is that it has *never*grown any operating system extensions of its own, all thecreative work is derived from VMS, Multics and theoperating systems it killed.

Hell, Unix even -encourages- this phenomenon. Contrast whathappens on ITS or a Lisp Machine or Multics when a programerror happens, with what happens on Unix. On ITS, LispMachines or Multics your program suspends and you are giventhe opportunity to debug the problem and perhaps fix it andproceed. You are given the chance to assign some blame. OnUnix -- *blam* -- core dumped. -Maybe- you can debug it,but you certainly can't proceed, so why bother? Ignore that(huge) core dump file and move on to your next task.Note that users -like- this behavior. No kidding. Ask halfthe graduate students at MIT these days -- they -hate- theLisp Machine debugger. All those blasted -choices-. Allthose explainations and questions. They don't want to knowwho to blame -- all they want to know is that it what theywere doing didn't work so they can try something else.So if I want to -think- about who to blame for my problems,I'll go use a Lisp Machine (or an ITS or a Multics). Butthese days I use Unix, where I don't have to think.

They used because there was no other option. Ed is like that not because "muh UNIX way" or "muh le bloat XDD" but to work around technical limitations.

Ed is barely unusable, and there's no reason to use it in 1980s, let alone the XXI Century.

Yeah its so important. Not like I can compile my code to run on one of 5 different options.

EVERY FUCKING TIME. CITE IT FUCK YOU. BLOCK QUOTE SPAM BULLSHIT.

There's nothing to quote. Those are just shitposts from some ancient newsgroups and probably some bits from The UNIX-HATERS Handbook.

R6RS was a necessary stepping stone to formalizing a scheme dialect with a focus on modules, compilation, and exposed the core issues with procedural macros.
I can ignore r6rs thanks to racket, but the complexity of r6rs made scheme simpler for large-scale software.
R5RS implies a full run-time with an compiler/evaluator like Common Lisp for even "hello world"; it was more dynamic than it needed to be.

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They came from somewhere. Include a url to an email archive, or even "from X email list", or "from the unix haters handbook"

Citing these things is the same as citing an anonymous opinion on a message board.

lmao xD good 1 bro

For (you).

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If there was anything worth citing on these piece of shit imageboards we would demand the same standard

WHAT FUCKING YEAR WAS THIS WRITTEN HOLY SHIT

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Vim has a gigantic codebase, and people also have to add tons of plugins to it. Emacs is more minimal than vim (and that's saying something).

...

More like stop coding harmful software.

That's not even a well-defined term. Harmful[to what?][to whom][in what context?][from what point of view?][to what extent?][to what end?][citation needed]

Most things that are harmful to a certain party are not universally harmful. Moreover, often "harmfulness" is a characteristic of a zero-sum game, where positive harmfulness to one of the participants is equivalent to negative harmfulness (i.e. benefit) of the other participant (example: a predator hunting down prey is harmful to the prey, but beneficial to the predator).

Harmful is defined right under the "Harmful stuff" section.

"Eunuchs" and the C(rap) programming language are harmful.

That better be bait.

Define PCLSRing for me right now without looking it up or forever forsake pasting unix-hater's handbook in these threads.

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UNIX is harmful

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If you reserve space on the drive you'll get an alert in your syslog when it's full.

Literally no reason to use df at all in that scenario.

How the fuck is xml harmful ? - just text with element markers for easy processing

One of the things people forget about the harmful software thing is that the site actually has subsections for certain ones.
harmful.cat-v.org/software/xml/

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You haven't seen MS Office XML have you?

glorious image. Good summary of XML.

recently getting into lisp myself. good place to start?

I agree on the C++ (harmful) and C (less harmful) classification. After using C and assembly since the 1980s. C++ combined with Qt is useful though. Tk and Tcl are actually kind of shit. Amateur-tier tools.

What about Rust?

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I just love having to constantly manually cast void* pointers to use literally any generic data structure.

I just used ITS as an example to show that simplicity is not only related to UNIX, there was no claim that both are similar.

Not the same guy, but I just read [1] and I understood most of the PC lusering problem, but is it still applicable today? I mean, CPU are so godamn fast compared to PDP-10 days, what are the odds of your process being caught in the middle of a syscall?
In the mentioned article there's "The Benefits of PCLSRing", but it doesn't look like all the complexity of having adaptable syscalls are worth the implementation.
Also, you saying "without looking it up" is a bullshit proposition. How am I supposed to learn something without studding it?
[1]fare.tunes.org/tmp/emergent/pclsr.htm

Why not read up on the df source code and figure out how it works? Hell, just run strace on the command, it will tell you exactly how it gets its information.

So why did Plan9 not take off? Distributed computing sounds exactly like the next step. Networks are getting fast enough where I could foresee some sort of OS that automatically shares resources in the network to help it's own computing power.

Just imagine how many offices have quad cores running Microsoft Word and a radio station while sitting idle 95% of the time.

Because of licensing issues, and the fact that it was never properly released to the general public until the late 90s - something else to note is that Bell Labs has a severe case of NIH syndrome (which is why he lists sed 11q as something you should be using instead of head). If Bell Labs had just licensed it from the start under an MIT license (and given it _properly_ to the public) - we'd be using it today.

It's like they never heard of POSIX.
pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/9699919799/utilities/df.html

how can you say this without realizing you're admitting UNIX is flawed.

Without looking it up is for people pasting unix hater's handbook without understanding it, you're more than welcome to learn things. PCLSRing might still be useful, you can still catch things in a syscall, especially with all the IO bound programs, but you have to design your entire system around it. It was fine when you have a bunch of experts working on a single system (ITS, lisp machines) but you could just shit out a unix port in a few weeks.

Also look at that page: "just check the program counter to see if the file's been written!" no one does shit like that anymore if they can help it

blog.agilebits.com/2013/03/09/guess-why-were-moving-to-256-bit-aes-keys/

They aren't. Local network data throughput is still lower than HDD to CPU data throughput.

Do you also want to embed assembly in PHP?

btfo

samefag

false

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I thought it was the same encryption with different bit keys but each seems to be a completely own encryption.
That was a pretty informative article. Thx.

That's some delusion you got there.

Genius

This is some tryhard. You just don't know how to fit in, do you?

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Using plan 9 is kinda lonely on a single terminal.
I end up reading /sys/doc/ for hours, forget everything I read until next time I'm so frustrated by linux I consider learning plan 9.

Uriel came across as a slightly insincere zealot during the 4/g/ era of shitposting, but the further I dig into the depths of modern programming, he becomes less naive and more prophetic.
His "extremism" indicated he understood the overton window, and how to stand on the shoulder's of giants.

Uriel was right.
"considered harmful" is European ergonomics applied to intellectual activity,
it is about wasting less time in front of a screen, yet accomplishing more than a glorified pajeet that spends 80 hours a week slaving over culture destroying software (faceberg, tindr, elite financial software, drm, gps tracking, mobile spyware, data mining / marketing).

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I've been thinking about using the "Styx on a brick" (robot control through 9p) at work. I could easily pull it off and I don't think it would add too much overhead

Why have any pointer types at all? A pointer is a pointer. Everything should just be void*. Anything else is retarded high level language bullshit that detracts from the hardware / language relationship.

The absolute state of cfags.

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Harvard has nothing to do with the difference between int* and char*.

Correct, which is the actual biggest flaw with C pointers that was somehow ignored by almost all successor languages because they're too busy writing user-facing garbage.

Rust works just fine on an arduino

Because it sucks and because distributed computing was a huge thing in the 80s, not a Plan 9 invention. There were VAXclusters, Lisp machines, and a huge number of distributed OSes, conferences, and papers in the 80s. Plan 9 was an attempt to ride the bandwagon by turning UNIX into a "new" OS.

That explains why all that crap sucks.

He understood how to close the Overton window by not even mentioning what the giants did. There's no mention of how many of the "good" things in UNIX are just bad implementations of better things in Multics. Most of the suckless "harmful" and "less harmful" things are UNIX-related and UNIX culture bullshit. Everything that Multics, VMS, and Lisp machines do that UNIX doesn't do or does differently is outside the box, but none of that is on the list because there's no "not harmful" category.

That's what Wikipedia says about it. I want to educate on the topic of Lisp machines, Multics, VMS, mainframes, and so on. Right now, writing an OS in C++ is at the "radical" level. Writing an OS in anything else is "unthinkable".

I think RP said it best: "UNIX is not only dead - it's starting to smell bad"Aha! That explains why his new system is called Plan 9 fromBell Labs.The original Plan 9 from Outer Space was a fiendish alienplot to take over the earth using an army of resurrectedcorpses (who were not only dead but were starting to smellbad).We'd better watch out.

Section 30.02 of _Unix Power Tools_ by O'Reilly & Associates says ... /ispell/, originally written by Pace Willison ...but hey, I was there when Pace ported the ITS SPELL programto C. Sure I am grateful to have a few reminders (^Z isanother one) of bygone glories around, but let's give creditwhere credit is due! Legend tells of a Chinese Emperor whoordered books burned so all knowledge would be credited tohis reign. I guess the subsequent generation of scholarswere a lot like the Weenix Unies of today.

Yesterday Rob Pike from Bell Labs gave a talk on the latest and greatest successor to unix, called Plan 9. Basically he described ITS's mechanism for using file channels to control resources as if it were the greatest new idea since the wheel.Amazing, wasn't it? They've even reinvented the JOB device.In another couple of years I expect they will discover theneed for PCLSRing (there were already hints of this in histalk yesterday).I suppose we could try explaining this to them now, butthey'll only look at us cross-eyed and sputter somethingabout how complex and inelegant that would be. And thenwe'd really lose it when they come back and tell us how theyinvented this really simple and elegant new thing...

FUCK YOU CITE IT

Stop taking up half my fucking screen with block quotes. Multiple times a day you do this. Every post you gotta include 3 fucking large blocks.

Why not make a thread about it here? And by that I don't mean just citing random quotes from unix haters handbook.

random OUTDATED quotes. 90% of the shit he spams doesn't even have relevance in $CURRENT_YEAR

and the quotes are from retards from the past too. As if the current day retards just weren't enough.

This lies in how C works. C uses the pointer type to identify what, how large and where the memory is.
I agree that it would be interesting what would happen if the data was stored with the memory allocated what's behind the pointer but it would no longer be C.
All these faggots only inventing scripting langs these days piss me off. There are so many thing that haven't yet been tried or done but muhh I nigger I need garbage collection.

what's

If you want to educate provide an actual alternativel. I don't see you suggesting any actual software, only bashing C and Unix, and not even making arguments, just asserting that they suck. Where's your precious Lisp machine OS?

This

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I agree. While it is true that Multics had ideas that Unix used (Data channels were like pipes) - pipes are far, far easier to use. I think Bell Labs also considered Multics a seminal advancement for OS design anyhow - it isn't like they hated it. That said, I don't know if Multics used plain text as a universal language - this happened to be a great idea.

How are we going to improve things? and dont tell me just fuck around with plan9 in a VM. that's not a solution.

rewrite unix in rust under a cuck license

We should all be running everything on the JVM by now anyway.

AYEEEEE. Anything but selling your software and exploiting the masses is cucked.

I had the poster from this hanging on my wall during my teenage years. The warrior goddess with the armoured tits was my ideal female.

Ice cream!

How viable would my job market be if I only dedicated myself to everything in the second column of this picture?

You'd put a bullet in your head.