Let's talk about the command line! The command line is the true patrician way to interact with your computer. It's so comfy to use command line or terminal-based utilities. and they have several huuge advantages over GUIs. For one they're generally really fast. Even on older or resource-limited systems, you can be confident that your experience will be mostly quite smooth in comparison to full GUI stuff. On a semi-related note they're super-lightweight too! I get really autistic about a lot of things, UwU. And one of those things is RAM usage. I know we have systems with more than enough RAM to run the big GUIs just fine, but I just dont like things using up more RAM than they need. Terminal and command-line stuff is efficient enough to satisfy my autism. Also, i'd imagine they're waaay more secure. There is so much code that goes into making the graphical stuff happen for all those GUI programs, and as the code size increases, so does the risk of bugs. smol command line programs don't need all that stuff so theres less code within a single project to be buggy ^_^
I'll leave with two pretty quotes, formatted in the style of mister lisp meanie: I have a mouse, but don't have a mouse driver for MINIX and have never felt the need to write one. Typing "rm x y z" is a lot faster than clicking five times and then having to convince the system that you really, truly, mean it and this is not a mistake and that you are consenting adult over 18 and that you completely understand the consequences and you still want to do it.-- Andrew S. Tanenbaum
The computers went wrong when you made them for niggers. That's when it went wrong. It's like how many people, it's like, "Ugh it's a command line.." Ah, fuck you man. White people don't mind it, ok? The white people are like, "Yeah it's a command line. So what's your point?" The niggers are all like, "Nooo! We don't like the command line!" Here's the difference in a white person and a nigger: Do you like the command line? Ok, you're a nigger. Fuck you. Get the fuck out.-- Terry A. Davis
Unix shells suck. The shells of the various Lisp Machines were quite different. The Symbolics shell, later called "Dynamic Lisp Listener" allowed management of commands, completions, defaults, interactive help, etc. See for example: hooktube.com/watch?v=o4-YnLpLgtk The interactiveness of that Lisp Machine is quite a step up from what any typical *nix shell offers. The problem of that (GUI) approach: it wasn't very sophisticated on the text terminal side; actually, it was quite bad. For development one needed an extended Common Lisp (or Zetalisp), which was a bit too complex/difficult for many users.
Really, It's not even hate. Most Unix shells are just dumb. Many people like to use primitive text based UIs with lots of corner cases, this makes them appear intelligent for remembering obscure commands and obscure options without real UI help. Take cp. The shell does not know the various options the command takes. The shell does not know what the types and the syntax of the options are. The shell does not know which options can be combined and which cannot. It can't prompt for shell options. It can't check the command syntax before calling it. It can't provide any help when the syntax is wrong. It can't deal with errors during command execution. There is no in-context help. It can't reuse prior commands other that just editing them on a textual base. The output of the command is just text and not structured data. There are an endless amount of problems. There *have* been attempts to address this by putting different user interfaces on top - for example, IBM provided an extensive menu based administration tool for AIX. You can try Lisp-based shells like scsh, clisp, esh or Emacs. But for the most part all these attempts still suffer from and don't escape the general issues. Also, terminal emulators are bloated protocol. This wouldn't be a problem if we could write GUIs in sane languages.
Kevin Bell
>_
Colton Ortiz
Sorry, that's just how it is. I know you like masturbating over "minimalism" (you did make all those threads on half/g/ after all) - but, you have to realize that C and *nix are primitive, broken, and bloated. Also, I'm not even the "lisp meanie" you're talking about in the OP.
Logan Walker
Friendly reminder that virtual terminals may not be as fast as a GUI program. xterm: 40fps uxterm: 60fps st: You can configure this Since I have a 144Hz monitor, st is the only sensible option to go with.
While yes, he reinvented Symbolic's C Listener (but worse) which was sold for their LISP machines, at least his editor is a GUI. You can literally go into draw mode or whatever and draw graphics to embed into your document.
Connor Sanders
Man, you always manage to find a way to stick your microdick in every conversation.
Leo Hernandez
Like I said - I'm not him. Really, I bet the people who denigrate him know nothing besides Linux; they assume that nothing better could have *ever* existed. Do you like mathematics? You should give Lisp a chance, even if you don't care about Lisp Machines.
Stallman is an even bigger lisp lover stallman.org/stallman-computing.html see the programming languages section for him explaining his love of lisp and scheme (and his like of C and dislike of C++)
Unix and its progeny are non-cute. I think the FS drivers are taking over where unix failed, automatically sanitizing filenames to force literals but goddamn why ever. Why still? Oh well thats fine.
Lisps are meh in every category but still cute, VMs aren't even single-language in 2018 though so you can have all of the cute langs you can interpret in small libraries.
Liam Cooper
Just ignore lispfags, there is one here, they are all extremely autistic larpers with superiority complex yet they don't accomplish anything with their hallowed language ever.
Cameron Green
bumpy!
David Sanders
...
Adrian Gutierrez
The Unix command line sucks. It's a very poor excuse for a REPL. Command lines don't have to suck, it's just that the Unix ones suck by design. If Lisp's idealism and lack of utility puts you off, it may be worth experimenting with the Python REPL to see what a command line could be in a differently-designed system. I keep one open a lot of the time, and it's great for the things I can use it for, because it's capable of knowing what I'm doing. A Unix shell has no idea what it's doing. It can tell when a command fails to start, and it can tell whether a command failed (but typically doesn't show you by default!), but not much else. The command has to do its own reporting. There's very little interoperability. After the process is launched the information flow back to the shell is basically limited to a single byte. If I'm doing something in a Python REPL there are standardized protocols. A function that fails can leave inspectable state behind. There's an exception hierarchy. I can wrap tqdm around long loops. If I pass the wrong arguments I always get the same kind of message back, because the system for passing arguments is part of the system, not implemented ad hoc in a thousand different ways by all the different subsystems I use. It's integrated. I almost exclusively run Unix-likes, so I don't know exactly what a well-designed operating system's shell would be like, but REPLs give me a glimpse.
Jeremiah Diaz
You're confusing scripting languages with gluing languages. Every "inconvenient" you're listing are just the point of sh: to glue every kind of executable with a minimalist compatibility interface; namely stdin/out/err and the exit status code.
Now, I wouldn't say no to something in between (maybe with better typing than awk style checking), but Python is NOT a gluing language (and it's shit).
Ryder Perez
I know that's the intention of sh. I'm calling the intention of sh shit. Python is not a gluing language, but it's possible for a system shell to be a lot more like a REPL.
Austin Anderson
normies will never accept the command line grow up
Minimalism is nice until it gets in the way of security and usability. Optimization of a system is the LAST thing that should be done, it is the LEAST important aspect of a software. The most important thing about software is that it is correct (i.e. as few bugs as possible). The second most important thing, that it fulfills its intended use cases, which includes being usable. The third most important thing, that it is secure. The last thing, that it is fast.
Defending UNIX "shells" because they are minimalist, is forgetting that they are not secure, and can easily even not execute correctly, which means they cannot fulfill their use cases. When a program fails all these three, it does not matter that it fails fast. It is broken.
Ask yourself: how many time have you had to look up the 'tar' man page, or googled it, before you were able to type the commands correctly on the first try? How many systems broke because an unwanted space turned a single string into two arguments?
What we need is a modern shell, that knows exactly what every program needs, and that won't even let you run the program if you don't give it the proper arguments. A shell where, if you want to terminate a string argument, you do it consciously. A shell that corrects you on the fly. That checks all permissions. Of course, that would also mean, stopping using programs that take in string arguments. Programs should take in typed arguments. You don't want to tar strings into a string, you want to tar a list of directories and files, into a file. You don't want to play a string, you want to play music. You don't want to run a string, you want to run a program. We shouldn't let individual programs decide of that, unless they absolutely want to.
When we have that modern shell, with these modern programs, we can talk about minimalism.
John Price
Completely agree. Shells may give the illusion of power, but most of them are just DOS era pieces of crap.
I agree, and you know UNIX truly sucks, when a Micro$oft product somehow manages to be better.
Jayden Phillips
Tar isn't posix, pax is (and it's simpler). Valid complaint, IFS splitting of stuff is only a hack to emulate arrays. Still no that bad unless you're retarded or start doing some multiple levels of eval.
All of your other shit is just some idea guy bullshit. In the sense that it might seem cool, but sh is only supportable because it's that dumb. There's powershell for what you want. Now I'm not saying that sh is perfect or even good, but that you don't really know what's wrong with it (and I do, as someone who've written more POSIX sh than 99% of the tards here). First, you must fix the coreutils to allow secure output/input of tabular data. Then you can fix sh.
Gavin Wilson
Yup, coreutils must go. Even more, ELF, as we know it, must go. ld, as we know it, must go.
Wyatt Clark
Normies all used the command line until Windows 95 came out. Mac users excepted.
Anthony Walker
Mac users were a large plurality, if not majority, of users in the 80's. By 1992, nearly no one used the command line anymore.
Hudson Brooks
not an argument
Evan Foster
SUICIDE FOR ALL TRIPFAGS
Benjamin Reed
In 1992 most people were still using MS-DOS and while command.com is shit for a command line interface it was the standard.
Let's face it though, normies don't even use computers these days for the most part. They use phones for everything. Even college students are writing papers on their phones. Computer literacy is way down. Normies can wallow in shit for all I care.
Oliver Torres
I agree with the benefits listed in the OP. also, I think that GUI programs have often more inconsistent UI/UX. And text-based programs are more customizable and customizing them is usually a lot easier and convenient. (and something like GNOMEME won't break your customization or remove your favorite features)
I am not the "lispfag" or the "lisp meanie", but Land of lisp is supposed to be a fun (and educational) introduction to lisp, and it's actually very good at that. But, pls read your SICP :-) One of the reasons why lisp is pretty cool is that it makes it easy to use magic to create a language that's specific (and optimal!!) for solving the particular problem at hand. And the REPL is good because it they allow you to prototype and change things very quickly.
How? PowerShill is very slow, and I don't see how it's better in any way than UNIX or GNU shells. It doesn't have better docs/help and it isn't more user friendly.
Not much these days. I'm smart enough to remember that stuff ^_^ And of course if I do need to look stuff up, I just use tar -h for convenience instead of opening up the whole manpage
I didn't know about pax. Will look into it. Thanks, mister!
Keep in mind there was likely a lower percentage of the normie population that used computers back then anyway. Also how ironic is it that even though you say that "Mac users excepted" when it comes to command line, yet today out of the two normie-approved desktop OSes, MacOS has the much comfier command line? I cringed. I couldn't even imagine writing a paper on my phone. It would take forever and be super annoying! >_< Give me a lappy with a real qwerty keeb any day of the week.
*giggles*
oh yeah for sure! If you use commandline programs, it just uses your shell theme. No big deal there. With GUI stuff you have multiple types like GTK and Qt to deal with. command line is in some ways kinda like the opposite of GNOMEME. Where GNOMEME is bloated, endlessly buggy, and changes all the time breaking things with no real benefit, based command line stuff is tiny, not as buggy, and is stable, not removing or changing features unless theres a real good reason. thank u for not being a meanie about lisp! I might actually try it sometime if im not too busy/lazy with other things uwu I think he likes it because it's a system shell that has stuff like Arrays, data types, OOP, etc. whether you think that's a good thing is up to you. I personally think its kinda silly and bloat for just a commandline shell.
This is offtopic, but I have to say it. Dude, in some of your posts you make good points worth debating, but the way you write is so obnoxious that trying to actually developing the debate further is an exercise in futility. This is a shame, because you actually look like you got some background. This is my first and probably last time I'm quoting you directly. Unfortunately the BO wants to keep trips around, this is the wrong type of incetive to some people.
Yeah, no. That's not a bad thing. Are people supposed to know all about computers if it's not their field? Do you know how literally everything you use every day works?
John Allen
We need an increase in both the averge AND standard dev. of literacy.
Knowing how to do basic arithmetic and knowing how to solve a simple equation or knowing a bit about Newton's Laws doesn't make you a mathematician or a physicist. Neither does the ability to use a calculator. Knowing how to install an OS or the basics of programming or knowing how to use CLI programs doesn't make you a programmer, engineer, a computer scientist or a hacker. Computers are becoming more and more integral part of our lives. Yet, fewer and fewer people have even a basic grasp on how they work or how to use them. There isn't any excuse for this amount of ignorance. It's like not being able to read/write or not knowing how to do basic arithmetic. ofc people don't have to know everything about computers, but nowadays people should know more, instead of knowing less and less.
t. eri
Carter Moore
They indeed use it everyday, but the problem is that it's used to control their feeble mind (I doubt that not knowing how to build a house has the same consequences). Which is the point, they're not born with thirst for knowledge, hence why it's stupid to even try raising them out of the mud. I try.
Also, you're a big faggot, like the board owner enabling this bullshit.
Nicholas Richardson
How is this faggot still posting?
Parker Powell
Thank you!! ^.^ I cant help it. Im just a gay kitten
so wait, doesn't that mean the overwhelming majority of them are straight?
Yes it is!! >_< Computer illiteracy is the primary reason for the botnet's existence. If people actually knew about this stuff, they'd take steps to fight against it. But instead, all the normies are tapping on their magical tablet thingys, completely unaware that that iPad has a processor, RAM, GPU, etc, and is actually a computer. Most of them probably don't even know their tablets, phones and smart speakers are COMPUTERS. Apple even flaunts this in their "What's a computer?" ad. And even if they can be taught that, they're blissfully unaware of privacy risks and will gladly continue using the usual botnet software, refusing to take their freedom and security seriously. It really confuses me because, like, didn't the snowden thing happen only a few years ago? It feels like people have forgotten. d-do we need another snowden in order to remind people that this stuff exists? do we need frequent snowdens and whistleblower happenings to keep it fresh in the minds of bakas with short attention spans? so yeah, its kinda a big deal!!
The botnet is not just a Zig Forums issue, it is a Zig Forums issuse as well (Economics, Law, Bussiness). If you don't understand the basics of Zig Forums you cannot undo the botnet. 1. Why can't small companies hava a choice 2. Why do big companies work with governement 3. Why can't open source solve everything 4. What is (((their))) agenda?
Daniel Hill
Do the math, you fucking degenerate. You have a small percent of the population making up a relatively large percent of all pedophiles. I guess your quantitative reasoning skills are on the same level as that of the elementary school boys you love to molest.
Minimalism is a meme, kinda like saying there are three genders or that men should learn to sexually prefer trannies and fat people. What's really being indicated is that today's young programmers are fucking retarded and don't know how to develop rich features, especially on the desktop. They are terrified of multithreading. Schools are making these kids stupid on purpose so that only AI will have the power in the end.
Jack Russell
people who believe that stuff seem to promote the opposite of minimalism. A lot of javascript and bloated GUI GNOMEME and Electron-tier stuff.
Dominic Reyes
I agree, that's why I exclusively use tmux and no X server. More functional than any poopy WM and there's literally no worthwhile program that won't run on a framebuffer or a terminal.
Grayson Williams
what about a browser? that's one of the main things that would hold me back from doing the same. For now I use stuff like dwm, bspwm, or i3wm on GNU+Linux systems.
Nolan Price
There are many of them around but the main 3 seem to be Links2, Lynx and w3m.
That moment you realize the fucktards have infested tech too. RIP
Bentley Clark
oh yeah I knew about those, and use them sometimes if I just need a reader. I meant web browsers that can actually display most websites and stuff. I wish I didn't need full JS support and web rendering stuff on a regular basis, but sadly that's the world we live in.
I heard netsurf can run in a framebuffer, but it doesn't do JS yet.
Thomas Foster
I used Lynx in DOS long ago, worked great. I had an NE2000 card and found some packet drivers for it on a repository called "SimtelNet", that I think was hosted on ftp.cdrom.com back then. Had a suite of tcp/ip tools for DOS, including arp, ping, tracert, telnet, ftp, and so on. Plus other various programs like Pine for meil and news. For 8-bit computers, there's Contiki. Here it is running on an Apple IIGS: youtube.com/watch?v=PowUYedShYQ
Gabriel Long
It's the Emacs Web Wowser you fucking retarded, wannabe Emacs user. You have no clue how to use Emacs, and it shows, you troglodyte Arch babby poseur.
Matthew Rogers
It's the mod.
Kevin Miller
THIS! Something happened to Zig Forums in the last 3 months or so. Trips started to pop from nowhere, how they're able to shitpost around with impunity may be a sign that they're related to the Board Owner, maybe they're even volunteers.
Michael Butler
/bl/ got nuked, so it''s only fair that Zig Forums gets nuked too if cuteposter is a part of the board owner's inner circle.
Andrew Evans
Would make sense, makes sense since "OWO,UWU" faggatory posting started in Feb. Thats bad.
Jackson Bell
Long time ago you could get dial in BBS accounts with like unix shell terminals. Lynx too.
Logan James
Would not surprise me if it happens
Jaxson Torres
theres should be rule that anyone who isnt ontopic gets cooldown for few hours GET BACK ON TOPIC HOMOS
Jace Harris
No.
Also, most GNU utilities are filled with bloat compared to BSD versions.
Samuel Carter
what's the /minimal/ program for secure instant messaging? Is matrix or tox (is it ded, yet?) the way to go? (I already use IRC regularly and rike it)
try dillo or (e)links? (or perhaps lynx, because it also has gopher support) I haven't tried netsurf yet. it's made by suckless, isn't it?
try XMPP+OMEMO. no, that's surf, which is webkitGTK and has JS I believe, but can't run in a framebuffer afaik. netsurf is a project that I think has ties to RISC-OS, but is fully cross-platform. Like I said it can run in framebuffer and has HTML and CSS, but no JS.
Jayden Watson
IRC is probably the most insecure instant messaging protocol that I can imagine. - no end2end encryption (technically you can use otr but who does that?) - messages between servers may be transmitted without transport encryption - time corelation attacks are trivial when only one user on a channel has tls disabled Try xmpp+omemo like recommends. Unfortunately there are few omemo implementations. Gajim is okay-ish and for mobile users conversations is nice. It's libre and user friendly.
Robert Russell
What about Matrix/Riot?
Tyler Collins
From their FAQ: So it's a part of the standard and is implemented in Riot.
so it'll be default/required soon, but not for now until they can make sure it's stable and most clients support it.
Gavin Cook
Yes.
Brandon Clark
Just to throw a couple more into the mix, I've been satisfied with Pidgin+lurch on desktop and Zom on Android. Dunno if Zom is available for iShit, too.
